Interesting, Ben.
I suppose I will experience the cons of foundationless frames eventually. So far (3 years) I have only good things to say.
I don't fish line or skewer my frames. Although I see some warping of the cell size on old comb, in general the combs themselves never sag or tear or break, and all mine are deeps. Of course I started out with foundationless, and learned care in handling from the beginning.
I use wedge frames, breaking off the wooden wedge and gluing/tacking it on as a guide. I never add melted wax, but let the bees attach the comb themselves. Their attachment is almost always thick and strong at the top bar.
Meanwhile, I can't remember the last time they cross combed. But then I add empties between the brood frames, and that guides their building. I scatter 3 or 4 empty foundationless frames each week in my horizontal hives, rather than an entire empty box on a standard hive, so my bees never have to deal with a solid row of empty frames together. Maybe that leads to cross combing.
I do find some wonky, thick combs at the top, where the bees extend their honey cells, and that does interfere with the closeness of the next frame, but I imagine that happens with foundation also.
Thank you Bob for your input on this subject. Very appreciated..
>I suppose I will experience the cons of foundationless frames eventually. So far (3 years) I have only good things to say.
I don't fish line or skewer my frames. Although I see some warping of the cell size on old comb, in general the combs themselves never sag or tear or break, and all mine are deeps. Of course I started out with foundationless, and learned care in handling from the beginning.
I am happy that you haven't experienced sag, tear, or break, in your deep langstroth hives and I hope you never do. I had this trouble during a late June flow, with new white comb made on completely foundationless without support, loaded with fresh nectar heated up in the hot sun. Otherwise I have been ok with completely foundationless. Handling it had nothing to do with it in this case. It wasn't handled until the top was opened looking in side seeing it was time to clean up the tragic domino effected mess lol. It's a sad thing when it happens.
>so my bees never have to deal with a solid row of empty frames together. Maybe that leads to cross combing.
Indeed it does. Michael Bush, Coolbees, Cao, and others along with myself had discussed the same thing, actually Mr Bush had successfully achieved this (with precautions). I as you, had always placed empty frameless frames (supported or not), in between two drawn out frames, as can be read in pryor post here on this topic. We also talked of the prospect in earlier post above, of simply throwing an empty frameless box on top. For those who have not read, might find it interesting of what Mr Bush had to say. At the time of those post I was reluctant to try a box or even a few frames without the aid of fully drawn combs on either side. Thought warned, my curiosity was already there and my spirit of experimentation kicked in. lol That is where the experimentation part comes in. So much for that experiment..
>I use wedge frames, breaking off the wooden wedge and gluing/tacking it on as a guide. I never add melted wax, but let the bees attach the comb themselves. Their attachment is almost always thick and strong at the top bar.
Yes as you might have read, we also discussed wedges in pryor post above.. Along with different methods of attaching starter strips, as well as different materials for starter strips, including the wedge as you describe.
Bob, I could have started a new topic. But after looking back at this old topic and the members who took time to post their interesting thoughts, experiences, and opinions; I decided to update this valuable topic with my experiences, not only for your pleasure, but just as importantly for those who may in the future wish to go foundationless. At the same time, thinking about our guest and members, which might also enjoy going back in time reading different thoughts on this subject from these participating members, (sadly to say some of whom may no longer with us. [Good Ole Dallas for instance, I miss him]), while giving an honest effort to help all be successful, giving a leg up in the saddle, (if you will), avoiding the mistakes that I made as well as the results of experiments failed..
