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Author Topic: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?  (Read 3681 times)

Offline Michael Bush

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Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« on: March 26, 2019, 01:13:48 pm »
"Whether beasts think or not, it is positive that they conduct themselves in thousands of occasions as if they did think; the illusion in this matter, if it be an illusion, was well arranged for us. But without intending to touch upon this great question, and whatever be the cause let us for a moment surrender ourselves to appearances and use every day language."--Jean Jacques d'Ortous de Mairan, 18th century naturalist
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline drobbins

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2019, 01:33:07 pm »
Humans tend to approach questions such as this as "do they think like I think?"
Perhaps there are other ways to "think" than the way humans do  :wink:

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2019, 02:12:27 pm »
Bees learn.  Subject of a maze with only color markers, bees can learn the correct colors that lead to honey and avoid certain colors that lead to a dead end with tunnels built specifically for this determination.  Trial after trial the bees could be taught to negotiate the correct turns using color as the only guide.

To learn, one has to think.  I define learning as a change in behavior due to experience.  Bees can measure, communicate and map.  True some communication is via scent but some by physical means such as a dance.  My understanding of bees is so limited by my own crude observations and study of observations of others.  The most basic knowledge of honeybees eludes me: who is boss, is there a boss, who decides what etc.?
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline drobbins

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2019, 02:15:11 pm »
check this out, they can do math!
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/12/181221123718.htm

now if I can only get them to mow the grass

Offline Troutdog

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2019, 02:38:41 pm »
All I know is when have me out numbered 50k to1 they can count!

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Offline CoolBees

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2019, 03:17:16 pm »
All I know is when have me out numbered 50k to1 they can count!

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Hahahahaha! Yup! And they count QUICK some times!
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Offline iddee

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2019, 04:02:00 pm »
Can they think?  YES

Can they reason? NO

Are we confusing the two words here?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2019, 06:03:23 pm »
ID, then what is the reason I get stung?  Just playing with words here.

That is interesting: bees can think but can?t reason.

I like Trout?s response 50k to one, mathematicians!!
Cheers
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline iddee

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2019, 06:29:34 pm »
Van, they THINK you already know the REASON.  :tongue: :cheesy:
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2019, 06:44:16 pm »
Oh Man, ID, I laughed out loud.  That is a good one, truly a good one.
Blessings
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2019, 11:43:34 pm »
What makes you think that they cannot reason?
If you threaten the hive, bees will come out and sting you. Take that same hive apart where they feel it is hopelessly lost and they don?t bother to sting. At that point they have no reason to die for a hive that is lost.
Contrary to what we have been told, man is not the only animal that can reason.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline herbhome

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2019, 01:18:36 am »
The process swarms go through to find a suitable home certainly comes close to thinking, IMO. Surely they can't think like we do. Like most animals they live in the moment and aren't consumed by concepts like the future, the past and death. Maybe they are better off. :smile:
Neill

Offline iddee

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2019, 05:31:00 am »
Jim, arguing that would be like arguing global warming. You continue to believe they can reason, I will continue to believe they can't.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2019, 07:14:17 am »
Iddee,
Many years ago my dad was sitting on his front porch and a wasp was building a nest inside the walls of his house. He decided to stop the wasp from getting into his house. He did this for an hour. Every time my dad tried to block the wasp, she out smarted and out manovered him. He was totally amazed at how this tiny animal was thinking and avoiding my dad every time he did something. He was so impressed that he ended up leaving her to continue building her nest.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2019, 08:09:20 am »
Scientists like to act like a lot of things don't think.  That they just have chemical reactions in their brains.  Indeed some people want to think the same about people, which is a bit of recursion... people thinking about how people don't really think...

There are many aspects to thinking.  I see bees show most of them.  One would be memory.  Most of us have experienced that.  Huber showed that bees remembered finding honey somewhere months before and would look again in the same place even though it wasn't there anymore.

"Not only have the bees a very acute sense of smell, but to this advantage is added the recollection of sensations; here is an example.  Honey had been placed in a window in autumn, bees came to it in multitudes; the honey was removed and the shutters closed during the winter; but when opened again, on return of spring, the bees came back, though no honey was there; doubtless they remembered that some had been there before; thus an interval of several months did not obliterate the impression received."--Huber's New Observations on Bees, Vol II, Chapter IX

Jean Jacques d'Ortous de Mairan pointed out that we can try to be "scientists" about the issue and forego a conclusion, but for most conversation it's easier to give up the concept that they don't think.

"Whether beasts think or not, it is positive that they conduct themselves in thousands of occasions as if they did think; the illusion in this matter, if it be an illusion, was well arranged for us.  But without intending to touch upon this great question, and whatever be the cause let us for a moment surrender ourselves to appearances and use every day language."?Jean Jacques d'Ortous de Mairan, 18th century naturalist (from Huber's New Observations on Bees)

Huber has a section where he tries to fool the bees on comb building and they anticipate the outcome and change their direction.

"I put these bees under still greater trial:  having observed that they try to build their combs, in the shortest way, toward the opposite side of the hive, I covered the latter with a panel of glass, in order to find whether they would be content with a surface which they do not usually trust, unless their cluster can hang in the close vicinity to a substance less slippery than glass.  I know that they prefer fastening their combs to wood, and that they accept glass only when they have been deprived of any other substance to strengthen their constructions.  I had no doubt however that they would fasten the comb to this pane, taking chances to later strengthen it by securing more stable attachments, but I was far from suspecting what they would do.
"As soon as the board was covered with this smooth slip-pery surface, they deviated from the straight line which they had hitherto followed, and continued their work by bending their comb at right angle so that the forward edge would reach one of the walls left uncovered.
"Varying this experiment in several ways, I saw the bees constantly change the direction of their combs whenever I approximated a surface too smooth to admit of their clustering at the ceiling or on the sides of the hive; They have always selected the direction which would bring them to the wooden sides; I thus compelled them to curve their combs in the strangest shapes by placing a pane at a certain distance in front of their edges.
"These results indicate an admirable instinct; they denote even more than instinct; for glass is not a substance against which bees may be warned by nature; there is nothing as polished as glass or resembling glass in their natural abodes, the interior of trees.  The most singular part of their work was that they did not wait until they arrived at the surface of the glass to change the direction of the combs, they selected the suitable spot beforehand; did they anticipate the inconvenience that might result from any other mode of construction?  The manner in which they made an angle in the comb was no less interesting; they necessarily had to alter the ordinary fashion of their work and dimensions of the cells; therefore those on the convex side were enlarged to two or three times the diameter of the others on the opposite face.  Can we understand how so many insects occupied at once on both sides would concur in giving them the same curvature, from one end to the other; how they could decide to build small cells on one face, while upon the other face they built cells of so exaggerated dimensions; and is it not still more wonderful that they should have the art of making cells of such great discrepancy correspond between them?  The bottom of the cells being common to both sides, the tubes alone assumed a taper form.  Perhaps no other insect has ever supplied a more decisive proof of the resources of instinct, when compelled to deviate from the ordinary courses."--Huber's New Observations on Bees Vol II, Chapter V

If you watch them in an observation hive it's obvious that one bee figuring something out often leads to more bees helping that one and mimicking it.

So I think we can demonstrate that bees: 1) can foresee the consequences of their current actions and then foresee changes in those consequences when there are changes in their circumstance.  2) can remember things as long as several months in winter. 3) can learn from each other how to do something.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2019, 08:58:39 am »
So I think we can demonstrate that bees: 1) can foresee the consequences of their current actions and then foresee changes in those consequences when there are changes in their circumstance.  2) can remember things as long as several months in winter. 3) can learn from each other how to do something.

And that is what we call thinking or reasoning.
Thanks Michael
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2019, 12:48:17 pm »
My totally objective thought;
Problem solving requires thought.  the higher the problem solving ability, the higher the thought process.  Any critter that can solve a problem that it has never come across before is thinking.  Human-style thinking.. perhaps not.  But having seen throughout my life birddogs looking at and examining a problem, then proceeding with a clever solution, has convinced me that 'beasts' do indeed think.

How much of that 'thought' is instinctual, I don't know.  But I'm certain some of it is original thought.
Winter is coming.

I can't say I hate the government, but I am proudly distrustful of them.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2019, 04:27:19 pm »
Bees, and all creatures/beasts, must think and reason otherwise you have the following ...........

If you discount their ability to think and reason then you are saying that their behaviours are solely instinctive.  Instinctive means pre-programmed.  So if you are saying they are pre-programmed then all manner of such beasts and their behaviours have been set by some programmer who designed them and pre-determined how they are to behave.  It follows then that you have to accept that all beasts are fundamentally AI (artificial intelligence) entities that operate within the limits and parameters of the beasts physiology and the programs that have been loaded into them.

Therefore ..... you either accept that every single creature on this planet is sentient, thinks, reasons, decides, acts and behaves on its own.  OR you are accepting that every creature as instinctive, having been designed and preprogrammed by some Grand-Master of all things.  You cannot have it both ways and you cannot have half of one or the other. Perhaps it is best to just consider that such matters are beyond mankind capabilities to rationalize. Simply because mankind is nothing more than yet another of the predesigned beasts, also having built in limitations of comprehensive capability for understanding the expanse and complexity of such things. 

This may be easier to accept if one considers it is all just following the ultimate Divine design. Earthling - no matter what your thoughts, rationale, or beliefs are you have to see that it all points to and ends in the same place no matter what round about way is taken to get there.

 :rolleyes:


Folks, The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy clearly explained all of this years ago.  In the end, when all permutations and combinations have been completed, when it is all over, the answer is still going to be 42 and we still will not understand it. Despite the answer to everything having been so clearly and succinctly given to us.

So long, thanks for all the fish.

ENJOY!




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aboZctrHfK8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAyTA98J3to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrv9c-udCrg

.

.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 07:06:21 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline herbhome

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2019, 04:57:58 pm »
My totally objective thought;
Problem solving requires thought.  the higher the problem solving ability, the higher the thought process.  Any critter that can solve a problem that it has never come across before is thinking.  Human-style thinking.. perhaps not.  But having seen throughout my life birddogs looking at and examining a problem, then proceeding with a clever solution, has convinced me that 'beasts' do indeed think.

How much of that 'thought' is instinctual, I don't know.  But I'm certain some of it is original thought.

Thanks for this, Hops. I'm sitting in my recliner recovering from an all night coon hunt. I've raised and trained hounds for over thirty years. A top hound is often referred to as having coon sense. This means he will work out what the coon is doing on the trail and predict what is the shortest route to the coon to pressure it up a tree. Some seem to be born with this to a degree and build on it all their short life. Others never seem to make the cognitive leap and will have to plod along following every step the coon took.
Neill

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Do bees think? Or any "beast"?
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2019, 06:21:03 pm »
THP,
42, now we know. 🤗
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin