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Author Topic: Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?  (Read 1850 times)

Online Ben Framed

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Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?
« on: September 03, 2021, 12:17:58 pm »
This question has been asked by many, including the Science Community over and over. I found this interesting post By Michael Bush dated January 13, 2015...
Topic:
"Native pollinator" programs
Reply #5 on: January 13, 2015, 12:56:59 pm ?

The discussion was stemmed from thoughts of another purpose, but reasoning thoughts from different members on the subject title led to this related post of that subject. For those of you which may be interested as follows...

Quoting Mr Bush
"The question of whether or not honey bees are native has been discussed since at least the 1700s in North American bee journals and by the scientists.  No new evidence ever came forward that I know in the meantime to prove it one way or the other but the scientists just quit discussing it and made the assumption that they are not.  In the ABJ of June 1923 (vol 63 no 6) there is an article on pg 299 with a lot of evidence presented to show they ARE native.  On page 301 an excerpt from a Spanish book from the 1700's claiming they are native.  And in that same edition, an appeal from Frank Pellet for anyone having any evidence one way or the other on the question to please present it since it had not been clearly proven one way or the other.  There are many similar articles from the beginning of ABJ until at least the 40s on the topic of native honey bees.  But since the current view of the "experts" is that they are not native, that probably won't get far.

I find the whole concept strange.  A bunch of European people living in North America, living on plants and animals that mostly came from Europe, in an ecology that has adapted to those European plants and animals for the last 500 years  or more and they want to act like anything not "native" is evil.  Hypocritical at best.  The people with that view should go back to Europe..."
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline mark

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Re: Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2021, 07:54:07 pm »
according to the hive and the honey bee
    the first records of importations into north america  are from 1638 on,  they were taken from portugal to brazil around 1530.



« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 10:11:41 am by Ben Framed »

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2021, 10:11:50 am »
Thanks Mark, If memory serves me correctly; Since this topic of the quote of Mr Bush in 2015; Mr Bush has found something written in some of the first explorers journal, stating honey was here? Now do not quote me. 😊 Maybe Mr Bush will refresh my memory.




« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 03:50:51 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Beeboy01

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Re: Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2021, 01:00:50 pm »
Well bumble bees are native and produce honey but not in the massive quantities produced by honey bees. It could be a reference to pre Columbus honey is talking about bumble bee honey not European honey bee honey.
  Another vector for the European honey bee to reach the New World could of been through the Nordic race who have been shown to of attempted colonization of some areas of northern New England and Canada before Columbus. After all the Norse drink is Mead and it is made from honey so I would expect they brought bees with them.
  Just some thoughts about it.
 

Online The15thMember

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Re: Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2021, 01:07:15 pm »
I believe you are looking for this?  Reply #62.
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=53117.msg481158#msg481158
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2021, 12:18:33 am »
Yes that is the one Member. Thanks..

Good points Beeboy01
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2021, 10:46:24 pm »
Bees have been on the planet since the time of the dinosaurs. Been beezy for 100 million years. As the climates of different areas of the planet changed over time caused by major planet level events; like astroids, major tectonic shifts, and come/go of multiple ice ages. It should be reasonable to think think bees have already been everywhere at some point. So, it may be more accurate to think of them as migrant rather than to native or not.
For example. The area I live in is scattered with dinosaur fossils. Not trilobites and shellfish. But actual tyrannosaurs, triceratops, and the like. From that we can deduce that the climate was significantly different then than is now. Tropical then, but winters of -40 now.
The presence of Man is a but sliver on the bees timeline and our span of reference of time and climate here or there is also minuscule. Places that we think to be inhabitable by bees now, may have actually been their home range before. Hence the suggestion that it may be better to think of them as migrant.  With those migrations spanning millennia.
I do not have bee-specific scientific proof of that hypothesis. So will leave it as an opinion.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 01:40:28 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2021, 12:18:59 pm »
If my memory is correct the only fossil evidence for honey bees in the Americas is a find of a bee that went extinct about 10 million years ago.  I think it is safe to say that there were no honey bees here prior to the arrival of the European Honey Bee imports.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2021, 12:39:45 pm »
If my memory is correct the only fossil evidence for honey bees in the Americas is a find of a bee that went extinct about 10 million years ago.  I think it is safe to say that there were no honey bees here prior to the arrival of the European Honey Bee imports.

This has been interesting and opinions on both sides have been reasonable contributing opinions to the topic. Actually without the evidence you just shared it was up in the air in my opinion of the answer. A 50/50 chance either way. Thank you for the scientific answer behind the reasoning which gives a more clear answer. I appreciate your finding. I honestly confess, I was forming the opinion 'maybe they did exist here before Columbus', even before others posted their opinions of maybe so. lol Who knows maybe those fossils may someday be found to exist?  lol  Until then...... 
By you lead of mentioning fossils, I just looked and found the following:
 
Fossil Insects: Pests of Creation - National Center for Science ...
Insects have been preserved as fossils in concretions, amber, shales, and the LaBrea tar pits. The oldest fossil insect dates back to the Upper Carboniferous period. However, six-legged arthropods, such as the springtails (Collembola), have been found in Devonian rocks (Wooton, 1981).

2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2021, 10:34:25 pm »
https://books.google.com/books?id=29swAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA299&dq=American+Bee+Journal+%22Jeremy+Belknap%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAGoVChMIgJus0IOxxwIVFBKSCh2NFwF7#v=onepage&q=American%20Bee%20Journal%20%22Jeremy%20Belknap%22&f=false

American Bee Journal June 1923 (Vol 63 No 6) starting on page 299

IS THE HONEYBEE NATIVE OF AMERICA?
A Discourse Intended to Commemorate the Discovery of America by Christopher Columbus.
By Jeremy Belknap.
Delivered at the request of the Historical Society of Massachusetts on the 23rd of October, 1792

Dissertation No. 3, on the question whether the honeybee is a native of America.

Mr. Jefferson, in his notes on Virginia, has said that ?The honeybee is not a native of our continent. The Indians concur with us in the tradition that it was brought from Europe, but when and by whom we know not. The bees have generally extended themselves into the country, a little in advance of the white settlers. The Indians called them the white man?s fly; and consider their approach as indicating the approach of the settlement of the whites.? He allows that ?in Brazil there is a species of honeybee without a sting, but that is very different from the one we have, which perfectly resembles that of Europe.? The facts adduced by the respectable author are true; but they will not warrant his conclusion that ?the honeybee, meaning the one resembling that of Europe, is not a native of our continent.?

There is one circumstance in the history of Columbus which proves that bees were known in the islands of the West Indies, at the time of his discovery. When on his first return to Europe he was in danger of perishing at sea, he wrote an account of his discovery on parchment, which he inclosed in a cake of wax, and put into a tight cask, committing the whole to the sea, in hope of it?s being driven on shore or taken up. This was procured in the island of Hispaniola, which he had visited, and it was one of the first fruits of his discovery.

The indefatigable Purchas gives us an account of the revenues of the Empire of Mexico, before the arrival of the Spaniards, as described in its annals; which were pictures drawn on cotton cloth. Among other articles he exhibits the figures of covered pots with two handles, which are said to be pots of ?bees? honey.? Of these pots, two hundred are depicted in one tribute-roll, and one hundred in several others.

This account is confirmed by the late history of Mexico, written by the Abbe Clavigero, a native of Vera Cruz who from a residence of thirty-six years in Mexico, and a minute inquiry into the natural history and antiquities of his country must be supposed to be well informed, and competent to give a just account. He tells us that a part of every useful production of nature or art was paid in tribute to the kings of Mexico, and among other articles of revenue he reckons ?600 cups of honey? paid annually by the inhabitants of the southern part of the empire. He also says, ?that though they extracted a great quantity of wax from the honeycomb, they either did not know how or were not at pains to make lights of it.?

In his enumeration of the insects of Mexico, he reckons six different kinds of bees which make honey, four of which have no stings, and one of the other two which have stings, one ?agrees with the common bee of Europe, not only in size, shape and color, but also disposition and manners, and in qualities of its honey and wax.?
In the account given by Purchas, of the travels of Ferdinado de Soto, in Florida, it is observed that when he came to Chiaha, which by the description was one of the upper branches of the Mobile (now in the State of Georgia) he found among the provisions of the natives ?a pot full of honey of bees.? This was A.D. 1540, when there were no Europeans settled on the continent of America, but in Mexico and Peru.

From these authorities it is evident that honeybees were known in Mexico and the islands, before the arrival of the Europeans; and that they had extended as far northward as Florida, a country so denominated from the numberless flowers, which grow there in the wild luxuriance and afford a plenty of food for this useful tribe of insects. The inference is, that bees were not imported by the Spaniards; for however fond they might be of honey as an article of food, or of wax to make tapers for common use, or for the illumination of their churches, yet as bees were known to be in the country there could be no need of importing them. The report of honey and wax being found in the islands, in Mexico, and in Florida, had reached Europe and had been published there long before any emigrations were made to the northward; therefore, if these had been considered as articles of subsistence or of commerce, the sanguine spirit of the first adventurers would have rather led them to think of finding them in America, than of transporting bees from Europe to make them.

As to the circumstance of the bees ?extending themselves a little in advance of white settlers,? it cannot be considered as a conclusive argument in favor or their having been first brought from Europe. It is well known that where land is cultivated bees find a greater plenty of food than in the forest. The blossoms of fruit trees, of grasses and grain, particularly clover and buckwheat, afford them a rich and plentiful repast, and they are seen in vast numbers in our fields and orchards at the season of those blossoms. They therefore delight in the neighborhood of ?the white settlers?, and are able to increase in numbers, as well as to augment their quantity of stores, by availing themselves of the labors of man. May it not be from this circumstance that the Indians have given them the name of ?the white man?s fly?; and that they ?consider their approach (or frequent appearance) as indicating the approach of the settlement of the whites??
The first European settlement in Virginia was made about seventy years after the expedition of De Soto, in Florida, and the first settlement in New England was ten years posterior to that of Virginia. The large intermediate country was uncultivated for a long time afterward. The southern bees, therefore, could have no inducement to extend themselves very far into the northward for many years after the settlements were begun, and within that time bees were imported from Europe.
That honey and wax were not known to the Indians of New England is evident from this, that they had no words in their language for them. When Mr. Eliot translated the Bible into the Indian language, wherever these terms occurred he used the English words, though sometimes with Indian termination.

Joffelyn, who visited New England first in 1638, and afterward in 1663, and wrote an account of his voyage with some sketches of natural history in 1673, speaks of the honeybee in these words: ?the honeybees are carried over by the English, and thrive there exceedingly.?
There is a tradition in New England that the person who first brought a hive of bees into the country was rewarded with a grant of land; but the person?s name, or the place where the land lay or by whom the grant was made, I have not been able to learn.

It appears then that the honeybee is a native of America, and that its productions were found by the first European visitors as far northward as Florida and Georgia. It is also true that bees were imported from Europe into New England, and probably into Virginia; but whether if this importation had not taken place, the bees of the southern parts would not have extended themselves northerly, or whether those which we now have are not a mixture of native and imported bees, cannot be determined. It is however certain that they have multiplied exceedingly, and that they are frequently found in New England, in a wild state, in the trunks of hollow trees, as far northward as cultivation and settlements have extended, which is nearly to the 45th degree of latitude.
I have made an inquiry of several persons from Canada, but have not learned that bees were known during their residence in that country. It is, however, not improbable that as cultivation extends, the bees may find their way to the northward of the lakes and rivers of Canada, even though none should be transported thither by the inhabitants.

Still American Bee Journal June 1923 (Vol 63 No 6) page 300
Was there a Native Honey-Bee?
By Frank C. Pellett.

We are indebted to our good friend Harold L. Kelly of Washing D.C. for the above article  written by Mr. Belknap in 1792.  Mr. Kelly  found this among some old writings on bees in the Library of Congress.  Written, as it was, so long ago, it is of much historical interest, although not altogether convincing to one who is familiar with the bees of the tropics.

The first statement  to the effect that Columbus enclosed an account of his discovery of a cake of wax is not conclusive for the reason that the wax could easily have been obtained from the stingless bees.

The Mexican bees are said to be of six different kinds, of which four have no stings and the other two have stings.  The stingless bees, of course, could not be mistaken for the honey-bee.  One of the stinging kind was very probably the honey-making wasp, which was described by the writer in this Journal in January, 1921.

Since the description which was supposed to refer to the honey-bee was written long after the Spaniards had settled in Mexico it does not follow that it was a native species to which the writer referred.

The reference to the ?pot full of honie of bees? found in what is now Georgia is more convincing, but even this might easily refer to the product of the bumblebee, which produces a small amount of honey.  The natives were often attracted by food in small quantity and travelers finding them eating honey might mention the fact without calling attention to the source.

The fact that the honeybee extended its range so rapidly and in advance of settlement indicates that it was an introduced species.  This is not absolute, however, since a change in conditions often affects the spread of a native species.  The breaking up of the prairies caused the Colorado potato beetle, a native insect, to change its food plant from buffalo burr to the potato, and then to spread all over the continent.  This change however, came with the advance of settlement and not ahead of it.  It is possible, of course, that there was a native honey-bee confined to a limited area which remained in its original habitat and that it was the European species which did in fact spread over the country following its introduction.

There is a persistent opinion that the honeybee was native to America although no proof of the fact has yet been brought forward.  We are much interested in establishing the fact or definitely proving to the contrary and appreciate such information as the above which Mr. Kelly has found.  Through his kindness we are able also to republish, for our readers, notes concerning bees in Mexico to which Mr. Belknap refers.

Still American Bee Journal June 1923 (Vol 63 No 6) page 301
EXCERPT FROM THE HISTORY OF MEXICO
By Abbe D. Francesco Saverio Clavigero (1731-1787)
Translated from the original Italian in 1806 by Chas Cullen, Esq.
Excerpt from Book 1, of Volume 1.

Bees
There are at least six different kinds of bees. The first is the same as the common bee of Europe, with which it agrees, not only in size, shape and color, but also in its disposition and manners, and in the qualities of its honey and wax.

The second species which differs from the first only in having no sting, is the bee of Yucatan and Chiapa, which makes the fine, clear honey of Estabentun, of an aromatic flavor, superior to that of all other kinds of honey with which we are acquainted. The honey is taken from them six times a year, that is once in every other month; but the best is that which is got in November, being made from a white flower like Jessamine, which blooms in September, called in that country Estabentun, from which the honey has derived its name. The honey of Estabentun is in high estimation with the English and French, who touch at the ports of Yucatan; and I have known the French of Buarico to buy it sometimes for the purpose of sending it as a present to the king.

The third species resembles in its form, the winged ants, but is smaller than the common bee, and without a sting. This insect, which is peculiar to warm and temperate climates, forms nests, in size and shape resembling sugar loaves, and even sometimes greatly exceeding these in size, from trees, and particularly from the oak. The populousness of these hives is much greater than those of the common bee. The nymphs of this bee, which are eatable, are white and round, like a pearl. The honey is of a grayish color, but of a fine flavor.

The fourth species is a yellow bee, smaller than the common one, but like it, furnished with a sting. Its honey is not equal to those already mentioned.
The fifth is a small bee furnished with a sting which constructs its hives of an orbicular form. In subterranean cavities; and the honey is sour and somewhat bitter.
The Tlalpiprolli, which is the sixth species, is black and yellow of the size of the common bee, but has no sting.

Wasp
The Xicotli or Xicote, is a thick black wasp, with a yellow belly, which makes a very sweet honey, in holes made by it in walls. It is provided with a strong sting, which gives a very painful wound. The cuicalmiahautl has likewise a sting, but whether it makes honey or not, we do not know.
 


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Vikings were here around 1000 a.d.  If there were no honeybees here at the time, I have no doubt they would have brought them.  Vikings without mead are no Vikings at all...  The Chinese could have brought them in 1421.  No doubt the Spanish brought them sometime after 1500 or so, perhaps as late as the 1600s.  But the manifest that is often quoted says they arrived in Virginia in 1622. 

I'm Lakota and one of our words for bee is "wichayazipa". Beeswax is "wichayazipa wigli" which means literally "bees fat". Bumble bee is Wichayazipa hinsma. Honey bee is "wichayazipa thunkce". That is as opposed to words like "wichayazipa zi" (yellow jacket) and "chanhanpi" (sugar).

I ask people from other tribes all the time, and have always gotten similar results. They have words for bees, honey and beeswax that are not made up words like the words for monkey or cow or horse. For instance the word for monkey translates "dog man" (shunka wicasa) and horse is "great dog" (shunkawakan) and cow is "female meat" (pte win) while the word for a buffalo cow changed from "female meat" to "real female meat" (pte winyelo). These European things have made up names.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2021, 11:36:17 pm »
Compelling post Mr Bush. The debate continues!  :grin:
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Fusion_power

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Re: Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2021, 12:07:44 am »
Honeybees have a habit of getting themselves included as fossils, especially in amber.  There are no known fossils of honeybees in the U.S. or for that matter in any part of the new world until after Columbus.  There is a fossil of a honeybee relative dating roughly 25 million years ago.  This is not a honeybee as we know it though it was a member of the honeybee family.

One way to prove whether or not honeybees are native would be to perform a thorough DNA analysis of honeybees in the U.S. today and compare with DNA from European honeybees.  With crude DNA tools over the last 20 years has come proof that A.M. Lamarckii was imported back in the early 1900's.  With full genome analysis, it would be relatively simple to prove relatedness and therefore either prove that honeybees were already here or that they are recent arrivals over the last @500 years.

My personal opinion is that honeybees are not native though IMO they could have been brought over by either Vikings or other European travelers 1000 or so years ago.  Of certainty, they were brought over by Spanish ships by 1530 as confirmed by a ship manifest.  The 1622 ship manifest was for an import of bees from Italy if I recall correctly.

On a side note, there are now 2 proven Viking settlements on the east coast dating to roughly 1000 years ago.  There are 1000 year old ship manifests showing imports of black bear skins to Iceland.  There were no black bears in Iceland or Greenland or Europe at that time therefore the black bear skins must have come from North America.

Further afield, Sweet potatoes are known to have originated on the west coast of South America roughly in Peru.  Yet when New Zealand was first visited, the nativs were growing sweet potatoes and referred to them as "Kumar" which is almost identical to the "Kumari" used by natives in Peru.

Chickens are another oddity that were provably being kept in South America long before Columbus yet chickens originated across the ocean in the region of Indonesia.

What to make of this?  There was a lot more travel going on across the oceans than we know about.  Columbus was not the discoverer of America, he was just a Johnny-come-lately who popularized the new world.
47 years beekeeping, running about 20 colonies in square Dadant hives.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2021, 12:09:08 am »
Fusion_power this is an excellent post. In fact I was so impressed that I went back and read some of your earlier post here. Thought you do not post in quantity, you more than make up in quality! Very interesting stuff! Thanks for your input and post.

Phillip





« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 12:27:23 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline NigelP

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Re: Were There Honey Bees Here Before Columbus?
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2021, 03:13:45 pm »
There was a lot more travel going on across the oceans than we know about.  Columbus was not the discoverer of America, he was just a Johnny-come-lately who popularized the new world.

Honey has been a amazingly valuable food resource to people since man could paint on cave walls......if honey bees had existed in North America before discovery (whenever or by whom) it would be very surprising  that nobody had exploited that resource or recorded their use of it pre importation..

 

anything