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Author Topic: Dissecting a Swarm  (Read 5208 times)

Offline Ben Framed

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Dissecting a Swarm
« on: May 10, 2021, 10:28:16 pm »
When I reached the point of time that I knew I was going to begin beekeeping I studied all the good stuff about the subject that I could find. Videos, beemaster, etc. (never a book though lol). After watching a video by Schawee a member here, I learned sometimes swarms have multiple queens. If I remember correctly he found a swarm with six queens in it. David in Georgia found as many as nine in one of his videos.

Later after I had caught a few swarms, I began (dissecting the swarm), if time permitted. I really like the idea of finding the extra queens. I personally have found up to 4 queens in a swarm.

I suppose everyone has their own method of catching a swarm. I will share a little of my strategy. If the swarm is to high to reach from a ladder, I will break out the bee vac and swimming pool hose along with a 16 foot pool pole extension to use to attach to the hose. (Dissect) the swarm, similar to what I will describe on the low limb dissections. Works great.
 
If I can reach the swarm, I will use an empty printing paper box. (The same type that office printing paper comes in). At the bottom, I cut a slot with a (flap door) inorder to make a place for the bees to march out of when the nuc box is set in place. I will first spray the bees with 1/1 sugar water while they are in the swarm cluster to help reduce flight before the shake. I shake the swarm into the light cardboard box and slap the top on. By placing this set up on the ground just inches from the nuc entrance of the intended new home housing nuc, I will lift open the flap, shake enough bees at the opening of the nuc box so the few that do come out will march into the nuc. It is good to have at least one frame of drawn out comb inside the nuc. Letting them settle for a few minutes I will crack open the paper box while spraying more sugar water throughout the bees. Pop the top back on and shake a few more out of the flap. All the while looking for queens headed to the nuc. After about three times of this, I start shaking bees directly from the box opening, (top area), on the ground, building a small pile of bees in front of the nuc, quickly placing the top back on, and sitting back on the ground watching intently for queen. This I will do until all the swarm has been dissected.

Also:
Have queen cages handy, a marking pen in place. Not all swarms have multiple queens. Most swarms do not have multiple queens, has been my experience, but when you have a swarm which does, its rewarding.....

If you are not at your home yard and need to travel you will need to have a box top with a screen incorporated into the top of your paper box and you can dissect at your home yard or any place that suits you. A swarm will overheat and die if precaution for ventilation is not taken. This also makes it easier to re-coat the bees with sugar water spray through the screened top when you are ready to dissect. Have fun!     
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 09:21:12 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2021, 05:56:45 am »
You obviously have too much time on your hands, get some more hives. :wink:

Offline AustinB

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2021, 06:48:24 am »
Ben - thanks for sharing. I had no idea about the multiple queens. But all of the sudden I am compelled to dissect the next swarm I find, waiting with my queen cage and marker pen!  :grin:
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2021, 08:21:01 am »
Austin,
I recommend that you have at least 6 queen cages.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2021, 09:13:14 am »
You obviously have too much time on your hands, get some more hives. :wink:

 :cheesy:

Ben - thanks for sharing. I had no idea about the multiple queens. But all of the sudden I am compelled to dissect the next swarm I find, waiting with my queen cage and marker pen!  :grin:

Your welcome Austin

Austin,
I recommend that you have at least 6 queen cages.
Jim Altmiller

I agree.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 09:23:15 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline rast

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2021, 12:30:18 pm »
I have reached the age that they have to come to me, close by and no higher than six feet. Preferably go into one of my swarm traps that are hung at a six ft. height. The best was the one that came into my baited trap that was still on a stand in my back yard. 
Fools argue; wise men discuss.
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2021, 09:41:36 pm »
I just picked up 2 swarm traps that I put out at a nearby steal mill. I put a single 8 frame medium hive next to A swarm that was one foot off the ground and a 2-8 frame medium hive 20 fees away as a trap. Both hives are full of bees and bringing in pollen. I have pulled 5 swarms from this location. And I left another trap to catch more.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2021, 09:46:03 pm »
I just picked up 2 swarm traps that I put out at a nearby steal mill. I put a single 8 frame medium hive next to A swarm that was one foot off the ground and a 2-8 frame medium hive 20 fees away as a trap. Both hives are full of bees and bringing in pollen. I have pulled 5 swarms from this location. And I left another trap to catch more.
Jim Altmiller

Congratulations Jim, you have found a swarm honey hole!
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2021, 08:11:46 am »
There is a commercial beekeeper very close to this mill. Funny thing is that this is the first time that they are having problems with swarms. In the past 5 years they may have had 2 swarms. This year they are up to 5 already.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline OGsBees

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2021, 03:12:53 pm »
Thanks for the info,  I was not sure what I was seeing. Caught a swarm 3 weeks and just went into the box the past weekend  and found 4 queens. I am still pretty new at this and thought just fat drones. Gonna go order some queen cages cause I got 2 more to go through.  Thanks again, always learning something new here.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2021, 07:52:07 pm »
OGsBees Welcome to Beemaster!
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2021, 10:40:41 pm »
OGsBees,
Welcome to Beemaster.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline OGsBees

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2021, 06:50:05 am »
Thanks for the welcome, been here since 18 creeping around and reading new and old post. Great group here and more knowledge than any book I've read so far. As for the multiple queens does anyone know why or what there up to. Does all the queens go to laying? Or maybe just hanging out waiting for a little build up and then each extra swarms. Do we think or know if these are feral bees or a keepers bees? Just seems odd to me after all I've read about newly emerging queens going and killing any other queens.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2021, 07:17:40 am »
Jim (Sawdstmkr), along with others, have written some good stuff in some of our previous discussions where these questions have came up. Jim is really good at explaining. I  agree with most except I theorize that these (extra) queens may possibly, in some cases, may not be virgins as once generally accepted.

I have noticed that each time I find a swarm with multiple queens, there are gobs of drones in the swarm also. I theorize that some of these queens may have been mated on the swarm flight. But really I don?t know. Hopefully Jim and others will chime in and enlighten you answering your questions.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 07:31:26 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2021, 08:38:52 am »
Primary swarms leave the hive when the first queen cells are capped. This helps the old hive by leaving all of the virgin queens in their cells. If the weather is bad for the next 12 days, the swarm could bee delayed and you could end up with virgin queens getting out of their cells with the swarm.
After the primary swarm leaves, the bees quite often keep the queens in their cells so that they can swarm multiple times. It takes several bees to keep sealing up the queen cells to keep up with the queens trying to cut the cell open. The queens meanwhile are growing in strength and drying their wings getting them ready to fly. The queens start piping trying to get the bees to select them as the strongest queen and to bee the one they let out to swarm. In this case the bees are keeping the queens apart for multiple swarms.
While the bees are swarming, their is a lot of confusion, as indicated by the small hive beetles walking all over the hive like they own it and laying their eggs, and during this time sometimes the queens are able to get out and join the swarm. It may also bee that the bees do not plan on swarming again and purposely release the queens into the swarm.
With my observation hive I have found that when the bees superswarm, my term, over and over the original hive does not survive because it is now too weak to control the SHBs and possibly all of the queens left with the last swarm.
In large apiaries secondary swarms quite often take off at the same time and join together. This ends up with multiple virgins. The videos done about skeps in Yugoslavia show this.
Virgin queens do not mate in the hive nor in the swarm. A queen wants to mate only with the strongest drones. She does this by flying to a Drone Congregation Area, DCA. She flys in, circles the area to attract drones and flies straight up. Only the strongest catch her and mate. The next male removes the first drones sex appendix and mates and this repeats with the strongest and fastest.
Nature always tries to mate the strongest and best males.
When the swarm finds their new home, then the queens fight it out to see who wins and then she mates.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Mamm7215

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2021, 07:54:57 pm »
Home Depot yard bags make excellent swarm catchers.

Offline OGsBees

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2021, 08:19:24 pm »
Thanks for the detailed reply Jim, I understand a little more now.  :cool:

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2021, 11:42:13 pm »
Excellent report Jim. Excellent information. Even so, I am still holding back on the virgin and non virgin in swarms, part. lol Please bare with me. I promise I am not trying to be difficult, I confess I am stuck on the virgin and mated queen swarms. Nothing but respect intended.   

Thanks for the info,  I was not sure what I was seeing. Caught a swarm 3 weeks and just went into the box the past weekend  and found 4 queens. I am still pretty new at this and thought just fat drones. Gonna go order some queen cages cause I got 2 more to go through.  Thanks again, always learning something new here.

OG'sBees your report, even the more reinforces my theory that multiple virgin queens may very well mate on the swarm flight. Or possibly even sometime before the swarm flight since you found 4 in your swarm box. If they was not mated then there would be only one virgin, as virgins fight to the death. We know that unmated virgins, when allowed to intermix, will fight to the death until there is only one virgin left. We also know that mated queens will live together in the same hive, laying. Thus is the case "more often than you may think" as reported by one of our members recently posted here, I am thinking it was Cao, (if not please forgive me who did say it), you deserve the credit. More than one laying queen in a hive is something I have learned here at beemaster, and just recently has it sunk in, may I add. Good post and thanks!

You might take a look at the topic "Swarm with one mated queen and two virgins". https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=54408.msg494333#msg494333.... Our friends came up with some good answers, thoughts, and information. I appreciate each one!! Below you will find just two excellent quotes of several from that discussion and topic.


I have read in the past that virgins are mated in swarm flights, but the question is mute. Set the 3 queens up in 3 nucs and you will have mated queens and eggs in all 3 in 10 days.

This reinforces the theory.

Sounds like you caught 3 separate swarms that mixed together. How many hives did you have before they swarmed?
We?re any other queens not marked?
Jim Altmiller

Excellent point!

Scratching my head, the point may be mute as iddee says but I like to know for sure! Just for the sake of knowing. :shocked: :grin:


« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 08:13:36 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline OGsBees

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2021, 07:14:04 am »
  Mr Ben went and read the post you suggested and this is what I've learned. I don't know why they do it but I need to be ready and looking good when I go into a swarm trap. Have a few nucs set up and waiting, have queen clips ready to catch extras. I was thinking a mated  queen could not fly or is it she can't fly far?  I will be ready this weekend when I go through the other 2. Thanks again for the info guys nothing like them free queens and great information.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dissecting a Swarm
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2021, 07:32:23 am »
Have fun!😊
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

 

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