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Author Topic: Almost Dead Hive  (Read 4977 times)

Offline The15thMember

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Almost Dead Hive
« on: January 14, 2021, 08:44:22 pm »
It was approaching 60F today and yesterday, and I noticed that all of my hives were flying except one, so I decided to pop the top and take a look.  This hive was in 2 mediums, and the top box was completely empty of bees and full of stores, and in the bottom box was only about a handful of live bees with the queen and the most of the rest of cluster dead on the bottom board.  There were about fist-sized sections of bees dead with their heads in cells like they were starving, but the cluster wasn't separated from stores.  I put the remaining live bees in another box on a clean bottom board and gave them their stores before cleaning out the box of dead bees.  I couldn't get any pictures of the combs or live bees because it was chilly and I was trying to work quickly, but here are some pictures of the dead bees.  I can get some pictures of the other combs tomorrow if you think they'll help.  Any ideas what happened here?   


 
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2021, 12:02:26 am »
Member with the top box full of stores I would not think a healthy hive would have starved. No Q/E right? Close up pictures of the combs tomorrow for more clues would be good. By the way you post really good and clear pictures. Good job.
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2021, 08:22:34 am »
Member,
It sounds like you still hav a fair size cluster of bees alive. If so I would not bother this hive until spring. Right now our bees are in build up mode due to the maple bloom. And they hav a good chance of making it through to spring.
You probably had a small cluster of bees get separated from the main cluster and they froze during the last cold snap. I have a small cutout hive in my backyard that is making it through so far.
Jim Altmiller
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2021, 08:28:47 am »
Being as you are in NC, one thing that might help this hive is to put it above your other hive. If you are using screen tops, put the box and lid right on top of the screen top without disturbing either hive. Be sure they have an opening.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2021, 08:55:43 am »
Does not look like starvation.  Did they get wet?
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2021, 11:02:02 am »
Member with the top box full of stores I would not think a healthy hive would have starved. No Q/E right? Close up pictures of the combs tomorrow for more clues would be good. By the way you post really good and clear pictures. Good job.
No, I don't use queen excluders at all.  I'll definitely get some comb pictures today.

Does not look like starvation.  Did they get wet?
No, they were quite dry, and their moisture quilt was only barely damp.

You probably had a small cluster of bees get separated from the main cluster and they froze during the last cold snap.

I don't think so Jim.  The bees on the bottom board were more or less right under the live bees and a sizeable chunk of the cluster was dead and suspended between the combs right with the live bees. 

Being as you are in NC, one thing that might help this hive is to put it above your other hive. If you are using screen tops, put the box and lid right on top of the screen top without disturbing either hive. Be sure they have an opening.
Jim Altmiller
I love this idea, because I'm very concerned about them keeping themselves warm, since I don't have any nucs to put them in (I really need to make some follower boards this year).  I do use screen tops, but they are beveled for ventilation, so I can't put a box on top of one and have it seal.  I use moisture quilts in the winter which I make by putting #8 hardware cloth halfway up in a shallow so I have room to insert some sugar if I need to.  What if I took an empty moisture quilt, opened up one ventilation hole for an entrance, stopped up the rest of the vent holes, and set that on top of a strong hive, then put this box of bees on top of that, and top with moisture quilt and lid.  Does that sound right?  They won't fight through the single layer of mesh, will they?   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Brian MCquilkin

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2021, 12:32:10 pm »
It was approaching 60F today and yesterday
  Good news is that your temps are above freezing and the remaining bees should bounce back. As for why the bees died possible moisture or viruses from mites. Depending on the remaining cluster size you might want to reduce them down to a single box or a nuc.
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2021, 01:24:43 pm »
Here are some picture of the comb that the bees were on.  I realized that all the combs they were on had mostly pollen on them, but there was some honey on one as well and they had honey right above their heads, so it shouldn't have been an issue with food.  It seems a little strange to me that they were on top of pollen instead of honey though.  Today there are some slowly moving bees crawling around on the ground in front of the hive although that could just be some that got caught out in the cold.  I saw some lethargic looking workers in the hive yesterday when I moved it.  A couple were buzzing their wings without hooking them together.  I guess I'm just wondering, since it doesn't seems like starvation or anything environmental, if it is in fact a virus or something else catching.  And if so, I probably shouldn't have them over a healthy hive with nothing but mesh between them.  Thoughts?




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Offline beesnweeds

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2021, 06:43:33 pm »
This is " JUST A GUESS" but it looks and sounds like Nosema.  The symptoms you describe, starving with food and k wing are not unique to Nosema but it could be a cause.  Nosema effects the mid gut so that the bees cannot properly digest food.  The only way to tell for sure is to mush up the abdomens and look for a high spore count under a microscope.  Its actually pretty easy and you can find instructions to do it properly on university websites.  Or you could send a sample to a bee lab.  I used to check my own samples and once in a great while I would find a high spore count.  I don't it anymore because there isn't a cure for it anyway.  But for commercial beekeepers and breeders the information is more important for production.  Again,  I'm just guessing and could be totally wrong but I think reading and researching Nosema A,C would be of benefit to hobbyists.  As far as combining hives or placing over one another, I'm not a fan.  Unless I'm 100% sure both colonies are healthy.  I rarely find the need to combine hives.
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2021, 08:38:10 pm »
This is " JUST A GUESS" but it looks and sounds like Nosema.  The symptoms you describe, starving with food and k wing are not unique to Nosema but it could be a cause.  Nosema effects the mid gut so that the bees cannot properly digest food.  The only way to tell for sure is to mush up the abdomens and look for a high spore count under a microscope.  Its actually pretty easy and you can find instructions to do it properly on university websites.  Or you could send a sample to a bee lab.  I used to check my own samples and once in a great while I would find a high spore count.  I don't it anymore because there isn't a cure for it anyway.  But for commercial beekeepers and breeders the information is more important for production.  Again,  I'm just guessing and could be totally wrong but I think reading and researching Nosema A,C would be of benefit to hobbyists.  As far as combining hives or placing over one another, I'm not a fan.  Unless I'm 100% sure both colonies are healthy.  I rarely find the need to combine hives.
Thanks, beesnweeds, I'll do some looking into that Nosema test.  I do have a microscope, so if it's not too complicated, I'm sure I could manage it.  I'm not going to put them over another hive, at least at the moment.  There's not enough bees in there to warrant a risk to a healthy colony. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline jimineycricket

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2021, 10:31:18 am »
   This might be a place to look for information on doing a spore count for Nosema.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-16-the-quick-squash-method/
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2021, 02:35:20 pm »
Member, I am sorry for you misfortune. Thank you for sharing this with us. This is educational to me. Let us know more as you learn more please. Thanks.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2021, 04:32:54 pm »
I did some looking under the microscope this afternoon.  I used Randy Oliver's instructions for preparing a slide, and it was really easy.  I found all sorts of interesting stuff, which maybe I should post as another thread because it really doesn't have anything to do with this.  I don't think I saw any Nosema, but I'm not 100% sure, having never done this before.  Here's some pictures. 
 
I don't think, based on Randy Oliver's pictures and descriptions, that there is any Nosema here.  I see some little circular things all through these pictures, but I don't think they are distinctly ovoid enough to be Nosema.  I didn't see anything else that would indicate anything abnormal, at least to my untrained eye.  I will still probably not put these bees overtop of a healthy hive, because obviously I couldn't see any viruses or bacteria with my microscope.  So this doesn't mean they aren't sick, but I don't think they have something protozoan or fungal in nature, provided that all those little circles are normal.       

« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 04:46:48 pm by The15thMember »
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Offline beesnweeds

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2021, 09:53:50 pm »
 I don't see any nosema in your photos.  Excellent job checking it out!  The only other possibilities would be a virus that may or may not be caused by mites or queen failure.  Some hives are like the goldfish you win at the fair and its belly up the next morning.  Its hard to determine exactly why they died.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2021, 09:37:35 am »
If you cannot find any evidence of a disease or parasite and the death is sudden I would be looking at how they got wet.  The queen would be protected at all cost and that usually means casualties.
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2021, 11:35:04 am »
Member,
What is the power of the microscope you used. It has been many years since I looked for nosema and I think it takes a 400 power microscope to see nosema.
Jim Altmiller
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2021, 12:32:25 pm »
I don't see any nosema in your photos.  Excellent job checking it out!  The only other possibilities would be a virus that may or may not be caused by mites or queen failure.  Some hives are like the goldfish you win at the fair and its belly up the next morning.  Its hard to determine exactly why they died.
Thanks for confirming my thoughts, beesnweeds. 

If you cannot find any evidence of a disease or parasite and the death is sudden I would be looking at how they got wet.  The queen would be protected at all cost and that usually means casualties.
I really didn't see any evidence of wetness in there, Ace.   

Member,
What is the power of the microscope you used. It has been many years since I looked for nosema and I think it takes a 400 power microscope to see nosema.
Jim Altmiller
Those pictures are at 400x, Jim.  It's the highest magnification that my microscope can reach. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline JurassicApiary

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2021, 01:11:06 pm »
Sorry to hear of this loss, Member.  At least the queen was protected.

I've read of a very similar (near identical) situation.  Dozens of bee butts in the air just as in your situation, right next to capped honey in the other case.  Final determination after ruling out parasites and other factors was that they froze.  I've attached a photo (with credit) of this case.

I believe (just my opinion) this is likely the culprit in your case as well for several reasons:

1) A significant number of bees were actively seeking food to (likely) activate their flight muscles to produce heat as they do to maintain hive temperature.

2) It appears (although we can't be certain) that the bees trying to eat died within a short period of one another--likely a temperature drop caused them to seek food.  In leaving the nest core to retrieve food, they became exposed to cold.  Similarly, the mass of bees on the bottom board were likely at some point the bees on the edge of the bee cluster, exposed to the cold, froze and fell down onto the bb.  A parasite, while possible, wouldn't likely cause such a simultaneous death, but cold temps would.

3) The queen wasn't affected (as she likely would have been if it were a virus or parasite.  They kept her warm at all costs, even sacrificing themselves in the process.

I don't know why they froze and other hives didn't--perhaps just lack of cold tolerance genetics for them...I don't know.

Were any of the brood or emerging bees dead in the their cells as well? 

Photo credit: Ruth Rinehart (Source: Beekeeping Mentor in a Book, by Donald P. Studinski, p. 38, 2014)


Offline The15thMember

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2021, 01:26:42 pm »
Sorry to hear of this loss, Member.  At least the queen was protected.

I've read of a very similar (near identical) situation.  Dozens of bee butts in the air just as in your situation, right next to capped honey in the other case.  Final determination after ruling out parasites and other factors was that they froze.  I've attached a photo (with credit) of this case.

I believe (just my opinion) this is likely the culprit in your case as well for several reasons:

1) A significant number of bees were actively seeking food to (likely) activate their flight muscles to produce heat as they do to maintain hive temperature.

2) It appears (although we can't be certain) that the bees trying to eat died within a short period of one another--likely a temperature drop caused them to seek food.  In leaving the nest core to retrieve food, they became exposed to cold.  Similarly, the mass of bees on the bottom board were likely at some point the bees on the edge of the bee cluster, exposed to the cold, froze and fell down onto the bb.  A parasite, while possible, wouldn't likely cause such a simultaneous death, but cold temps would.

3) The queen wasn't affected (as she likely would have been if it were a virus or parasite.  They kept her warm at all costs, even sacrificing themselves in the process.

I don't know why they froze and other hives didn't--perhaps just lack of cold tolerance genetics for them...I don't know.

Were any of the brood or emerging bees dead in the their cells as well? 

Photo credit: Ruth Rinehart (Source: Beekeeping Mentor in a Book, by Donald P. Studinski, p. 38, 2014)


Based on this assessment, freezing is a possible candidate here.  We did have a cold snap right before.  I kind of wrote freezing off because I have a very small hive that was fine, but perhaps you are right, Matthew.  I don't have any brood at this time of year, so nothing to assess on that front.  This hive did have some larger gaps between boxes than some of my other hives, but I checked before winter to make sure they had sealed the cracks well.  All the hives get sun in the winter, but the small hive probably gets more, so maybe that was a factor as well.             
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Offline jimineycricket

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Re: Almost Dead Hive
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2021, 02:08:24 pm »
Member:  I have found very similar looking slides on bees that I checked after a varroa check.  I also don't know what all of the little circles are.  I saw some pollen in your first image, and maybe one of the "fried egg" things that Randy Oliver talks about in the second image.  Question:  what did you use to take your pictures?  My cell phone pics are not easy or great.  I have taken some with a webcam and looked at them on my computer.  Nothing I have seen are oblong, therefore I don't think they are nosema.
jimmy