Queen Excluder with Double Deeps?

[BurleyBee]

Back during the Tallow flow in June, I experimented with single Brood deep.  I took some Nucs in April, grew to strong singles, excluded and added drawn comb right in time for flow.  I really liked how clean and organized it was.  After harvesting, I put a deep of foundation and fed them syrup.  They drew out that deep and now I have some very strong double deeps with goldenrod flow starting in a couple weeks.

So, has anyone just thrown an excluder on doubles and topped with comb with success?

Or should I place queen in bottom deep, exclude from 2nd deep and place comb on top of it; allowing bees to backfill 2nd box and possibly have harvest in 3rd?

Or should I just quit overthinking it and place super over double without excluder?

[Ben Framed]

Back during the Tallow flow in June, I experimented with single Brood deep.  I took some Nucs in April, grew to strong singles, excluded and added drawn comb right in time for flow.  I really liked how clean and organized it was.  After harvesting, I put a deep of foundation and fed them syrup.  They drew out that deep and now I have some very strong double deeps with goldenrod flow starting in a couple weeks.

So, has anyone just thrown an excluder on doubles and topped with comb with success?

Or should I place queen in bottom deep, exclude from 2nd deep and place comb on top of it; allowing bees to backfill 2nd box and possibly have harvest in 3rd?

Or should I just quit overthinking it and place super over double without excluder?

Burley I like the description of what you and your bees accomplished this season.. I realize each year is a little different and each year each flow may or may be the same. For curiosity, did you have a good goldenrod flow last year? Is goldenrod the last flow in your part of Mississippi each year? It is the last for me here in North Mississippi...

What is in the top of your double now? Mostly brood? Stores? Empty?

[Oldbeavo]

BB
You could become an OZ bee keeper in the US.
Leave the QX on the single brood box, add the new super above it, then put the full super on top. Standard configuration for us. Allows you to take the full super easily.
Being able to locate the queen relatively easy and not having brood in the honey makes life uncomplicated.
Also allows you to pack down to a single box for winter, depending on bees numbers. There is a local BK who runs 10 frame full depth and all his 1100 hives winter as single boxes.

[BurleyBee]

The goldenrod flow last year wasn?t very spectacular, but my hives also weren?t as spectacular as they are now.  I have a few that look really good.  Does that equate to a good harvest?  Who knows.  I have slightly more brood in upper deep.  I have several frames of solid brood, so either way I probably need to make a decision by next week.

https://imgur.com/a/GqQ44wF

[.30WCF]

There is a method, I can?t recall the name right now, that keeps the queen in the bottom brood box with an excluder, but you pull brood up into the second box until they emerge, pushing open comb down to replace it to be laid in. Move this rotation around every week or two. It?s a thing my brother is doing, but I recently heard a podcast about how many different versions of this there are.


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[Ben Framed]

Burley the reason I ask you about the goldenrod flow in your area, is last year I didn't get much from it but pollen, sounds like you did not do much better. Pollen is a good asset and a key ingredient for fall bee build up going into winter. We need to make sure they have adequate feed for the winter whether we uas a single or double brood set up.. I am saying this to myself as much as I am to you. Any honey my bees get from now on is for them... After the goldenrod flow I will know more what they will need...   

[Ben Framed]

The goldenrod flow last year wasn?t very spectacular, but my hives also weren?t as spectacular as they are now.  I have a few that look really good.  Does that equate to a good harvest?  Who knows.  I have slightly more brood in upper deep.  I have several frames of solid brood, so either way I probably need to make a decision by next week.

https://imgur.com/a/GqQ44wF

Burley the picture of brood is impressive!! Keep up the good work!!

[TheHoneyPump]

Good questions up there but not enough info about what your goal is.
What is your winter configuration plan? Are you planning to winter in single double or triple?  Are your boxes you are talking about all deeps all mediums or some combination thereof?  Are you going for extractable honey or going for winter bulkup over the next 3 weeks?

[BurleyBee]

The overall goal is to allow for some extracted honey.  This is all dependent on how good the goldenrod flow is this year.  There are years like last year where it?s not great.  Last year I did pull a few frames, then topped of the hives with 2:1 in November. 

They are double deeps.  I run all deeps.  With the amount of bees currently and the way the queen is laying, I?ll leave them as doubles.

[BeeMaster2]

I just add the supers on all of my hives. With 2 deeps, if I there is enough room for the bees to build drone comb, they will usually stay in the 2 deeps.
Jim Altmiller

[TheHoneyPump]

If try to catch late season flow for honey to put in jars, then yes.  Queen excluder and a super above. Late season flow they will pack into the brood boxes (doubleDs) as the brood emerges. Meaning they will backfill. Excess, if any, they will push up to the super for you.  If nothing else, adding the QX and box will give the newbees living space so they do not go into late swarm mode, when those large brood frames pictured emerge.

Imho, hope that helps.

[Ben Framed]

There is a method, I can?t recall the name right now, that keeps the queen in the bottom brood box with an excluder, but you pull brood up into the second box until they emerge, pushing open comb down to replace it to be laid in. Move this rotation around every week or two. It?s a thing my brother is doing, but I recently heard a podcast about how many different versions of this there are.


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I do not know what it is called either but thinking outside the box is how we advance. Keep up the good thoughts....This time of year at least in my area I am thinking if the queen is going gangbuster, and if we want to overwinter in singles as opposed to doubles, It might be better to leave the excluder on top of the bottom box not moving the empties of the top box down as the brood in the top box hatch?  That way we can pack the brood down below and remove the second brood chamber without worry of brood in the second box, (or top box), when we are ready to tuck them in for the winter? Once that is done we can pour the feed to them for winter preparation? Same if we are using a double box?  Have patience, I am still learning. lol

Adding I do not know what or if location might or might not have effect?  Or what effect the same may include in warmer areas as opposed to the colder Northern areas? My area is somewhat in between. Our winters here at my location are depending. Most years the bees get out a good bit. I do not know if the double or single would bring be the most benefit and success in my area or in similar areas of others? Though Burley is in the same State as me, he is also in a milder climate than me. What are yalls thoughts?

Oldbeavo will you once again describe your winters? I know you have before but I confess I do not remember your answer. Thanks...

[Oldbeavo]

Our winters are moderate, our north/south down under is about Kentucky. Our bees winter at about Nashville.
We have cold nights, at the worst -2 to -4 C but usually in the 2 to 6 C with the days getting to 11-14 C. We get an odd day that may get to 16-17 but not often.
We never feed in Autumn for winter, as the days shorten the bees will backfill the brood. If you keep them tight for room they will backfill all the space.
Our Autumn is always as doubles and maybe if bee numbers are down with individual hives they may be packed down to a single.
We cheat a bit as our lids are 1 1/2" frame/rim with an insulated top. There is no hive mat or  cover and so the bees if tight for space will fill the lid with honey. This holds 3+kg of honey. All our lids are never cleaned and so the wax is in place from when ever and they just fill it with honey.
The bees always eat the lid first.
A lid of honey is good insurance for bad decisions or bad luck.

[.30WCF]

There is a method, I can?t recall the name right now, that keeps the queen in the bottom brood box with an excluder, but you pull brood up into the second box until they emerge, pushing open comb down to replace it to be laid in. Move this rotation around every week or two. It?s a thing my brother is doing, but I recently heard a podcast about how many different versions of this there are.


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I do not know what it is called either but thinking outside the box is how we advance. Keep up the good thoughts....This time of year at least in my area I am thinking if the queen is going gangbuster, and if we want to overwinter in singles as opposed to doubles, It might be better to leave the excluder on top of the bottom box not moving the empties of the top box down as the brood in the top box hatch?  That way we can pack the brood down below and remove the second brood chamber without worry of brood in the second box, (or top box), when we are ready to tuck them in for the winter? Once that is done we can pour the feed to them for winter preparation? Same if we are using a double box?  Have patience, I am still learning. lol

Adding I do not know what or if location might or might not have effect?  Or what effect the same may include in warmer areas as opposed to the colder Northern areas? My area is somewhat in between. Our winters here at my location are depending. Most years the bees get out a good bit. I do not know if the double or single would bring be the most benefit and success in my area or in similar areas of others? Though Burley is in the same State as me, he is also in a milder climate than me. What are yalls thoughts?

Oldbeavo will you once again describe your winters? I know you have before but I confess I do not remember your answer. Thanks...

Demaree Method


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[Ben Framed]

OldBeavo
We cheat a bit as our lids are 1 1/2" frame/rim with an insulated top. There is no hive mat or  cover and so the bees if tight for space will fill the lid with honey. This holds 3+kg of honey. All our lids are never cleaned and so the wax is in place from when ever and they just fill it with honey.
The bees always eat the lid first.
A lid of honey is good insurance for bad decisions or bad luck.

You have once again taught me something that I have never heard of.. Thanks!

[.30WCF]

There are lots of different versions of the Demaree method.
It sounds like it may be fairly labor-intensive, but the idea is to pull the eggs and larva along with the nurse bees up to the second box. This draws The The majority of the nurse bees from the brood box up to the second box and relieves congestion. Emerging or nearly emerging capped brood is put down into the brood box to emerge within a few days and free up cells to be laid in.
The point is to keep more available space to lay in, at a rate that keeps the brood box open and draws nurses out of the brood box.

[Ben Framed]

Yes Mr Bush had mentioned a varied version of the Demaree method on the topic "Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board" . I had never heard of it so I looked it up. The description did not go into detail.. When I looked it up there. I suppose Mr Demaree must have been a real pioneer in modern beekeeping...

"Demaree method"
Description
In beekeeping, the Demaree method is a swarming prevention method. It was first published by George Demaree (1832-1915) in an article in the American Bee Journal in 1892. Demaree also described a swarm prevention method in 1884, but that was a two-hive system that is unrelated to modern "demareeing".

[Oldbeavo]

You have to be careful that human logic and bee logic rarely mesh together.
There was a theory that in Autumn as the bees start to back fill the brood and reduce the space for the queen to lay in that you shift 2 frames of brood above the excluder and give the queen 2 empty frames to lay in. Sounds really logical- to us only, not to bees.
End result was that he bees said thanks very much for the free space and filled the empty frames with honey.
The queen did not lay anymore due to our efforts. Let the season and the bees take care of business.
Negative was that i now have 2 brood frames in the super. I know its off topic but brood frames are magnets for wax moths. We only have white frames in supers to be stored, Black frames are kept separate and more regularly treated through warm weather for wax moth.