Raw vs Pure Honey

[BurleyBee]

While trying to find what is the best wording to put on my Honey Labels, I?ve become confused.  I?ve read articles and searched forums, but can?t get a clear description of what is raw and what is pure.  Some state that raw honey is straight from the extractor.  Just today I see a reddit post of a frame of honey and it says 100% pure honey.  Well I?m told pure honey is filtered many times, then heated.

Maybe I?m being too picky but I want to label my bees product correctly.  I extract, then double sieve.  Some may run through a paint strainer before double sieve.  I don?t heat my honey.  So label Raw?

[.30WCF]

Have you looked at fda?

https://www.fda.gov/files/food/published/PDF---Guidance-for-Industry--Proper-Labeling-of-Honey-and-Honey-Products.pdf

https://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/claims/fda-issues-guidance-proper-labeling-honey


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[Hops Brewster]

"pure" honey simply means there are no added ingredients like HFCS.  It could be heated, highly filtered and otherwise highly processed.  Usually won't crystallize.  Grocery store honey.

Raw honey has not been heated beyond the lower temps required to make it flow through the equipment.  Sometimes strained to get the legs and wings out, but not filtered.  Often crystalizes quickly.  Beekeeper's honey.

[.30WCF]

What makes one crystalize and one not?


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[JurassicApiary]

What makes one crystalize and one not?

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Although honey and HFCS are essentially made of the same type of simple sugars (fructose and glucose), their ratios are different.  HFCS owes its crystallization resistance (in part) to its corn syrup origin (HFCS is a mixture of corn and potato syrups), which is a crystallization inhibitor.

As to raw honey and crystallization, heating raw honey alters enzymes, amino acids and chemical bonds, which affect its crystallization properties.

There is a nice article called "The Chemistry of Honey" from Bee Culture magazine here:
https://www.beeculture.com/the-chemistry-of-honey/

[.30WCF]

What makes one crystalize and one not?

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Although honey and HFCS are essentially made of the same type of simple sugars (fructose and glucose), their ratios are different.  HFCS owes its crystallization resistance (in part) to its corn syrup origin (HFCS is a mixture of corn and potato syrups), which is a crystallization inhibitor.

As to raw honey and crystallization, heating raw honey alters enzymes, amino acids and chemical bonds, which affect its crystallization properties.

There is a nice article called "The Chemistry of Honey" from Bee Culture magazine here:
https://www.beeculture.com/the-chemistry-of-honey/

Ok. I might be misreading then. I read this as No HFCS, is heated, usually won?t crystallize. Grocery store honey. VS Likley no additives either, low heat if any, can crystallize.
Heat and filtering being the main differences. 

"pure" honey simply means there are no added ingredients like HFCS.  It could be heated, highly filtered and otherwise highly processed.  Usually won't crystallize.  Grocery store honey.

Raw honey has not been heated beyond the lower temps required to make it flow through the equipment.  Sometimes strained to get the legs and wings out, but not filtered.  Often crystalizes quickly.  Beekeeper's honey.

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[JurassicApiary]

That?s funny, I was actually thinking about crystallization due to cooling rather than heating for HFCS.  Then I addressed heating of raw honey...Too much smoke in my face today...  Yes, HFCS will crystallize, but typically after raw honey due to its higher resistance to crystallization caused in part by the corn syrup.


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[Oldbeavo]

Honey is a saturated solution, saturated solutions will stay clear until a trigger is added eg in science the Copper sulphate saturated solution, you hang a piece of string in it and crystals grow on it. The string is the trigger.
Raw honey has a lot of triggers in it, pollen grains, little pieces of wax, and the odd crystal, so candying will occur.
If you take the honey and filter it to take out the pieces and then heat it to dissolve any honey crystals then you are back to a saturated solution with no triggers, therefore extended shelf life for the super market.
The speed at which honey candies is due to the different ratios of fructose and glucose in the nectar. Canola will candy in the frames in weeks.

We only put the honey through a wire kitchen sieve to take out wings and legs and some bits if wax, and when bringing it back from candy to package we don't exceed 40 degrees C. We sell it as raw honey.

[Ben Framed]

Oldbeavo thanks for the hands on explanation of experience. Appreciated. Thanks

[.30WCF]

Makes sense. Thanks.


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[sc-bee]

Yep as Oldbeavo said above. My questions is are all you guys too young to have made rock candy on the string suspended in the super saturated sugar solution? I guess you are... bunch of young CHAPS

.30  you wanted rally start  a  war... ask what the definition of LOCAL HONEY is 

[.30WCF]

Yep as Oldbeavo said above. My questions is are all you guys too young to have made rock candy on the string suspended in the super saturated sugar solution? I guess you are... bunch of young CHAPS

I did the rock candy as a kid.

.30  you wanted rally start  a  war... ask what the definition of LOCAL HONEY is 

I never would have thought as that being something to debate. I would assume it would be honey from....

Well now you have me rethinking this.
I was gonna start with, oh, I don?t know, pick a number, say 45 miles from a spot. 

Who?s spot, my (the customer?s ) spot or the bee keepers spot?

What if the bee hives get moved around to a orchard in the spring and then 30 miles west to soy beans in the summer? Does that ?45 miles? then get oblong and become a 45x67.5 mile area? Even more, is it extra local if it is from the area that those two circles overlap?

What about belts of climate and topography? Where I live, if someone dumped you out of a car after driving you around with a bag over your head, it may be hard to tell if you left the general area or rode in a circle for 6 hours.

The you could probably not notice a ton of difference in the mountains just west of me from,say Georgia to Va or W Va.

Interesting. I never thought of that before.

I?m gonna go with, as a general consumer, if it?s within an hour drive if my house, it?s local to me.



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[.30WCF]

And why do my apostrophes keep changing to question marks&


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[The15thMember]

And why do my apostrophes keep changing to question marks&


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It?s some sort of rendering issue that happens when you use a mobile device. There is a thread under tech support that explains it in more detail, I believe.

Yep as Oldbeavo said above. My questions is are all you guys too young to have made rock candy on the string suspended in the super saturated sugar solution? I guess you are... bunch of young CHAPS

.30  you wanted rally start  a  war... ask what the definition of LOCAL HONEY is 

FYI, I also have done rock candy many times and I?m 24.

[sc-bee]

Yep as Oldbeavo said above. My questions is are all you guys too young to have made rock candy on the string suspended in the super saturated sugar solution? I guess you are... bunch of young CHAPS


FYI, I also have done rock candy many times and I?m 24.

 15th...I am not talking about that pop rock candy they sell in a bag... Just kidding.... I wish squirrel nut zippers, chick-o- sticks , and Boston Baked beans were still the same as before...

[amymcg]

There is no faster way to pull out your dental work than Mary Janes or squirrel nut zippers


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[Oldbeavo]

We work our bees up to about 80 miles from home, so do not make a local claim. but as people travel to farmer markets we ask where they live and quite often one of the 4-6 varieties of honey on the table will be local to them.
People often want local honey for hay fever control, so I will ask them at what time of the year do they get their hay fever, and quite often it is Spring and when the Ryegrass flowers. So I will recommend a honey that is collected in Spring when the pollens that worry them are at their highest.

[Seeb]

So I will recommend a honey that is collected in Spring when the pollens that worry them are at their highest.

Very cool beavo!

[.30WCF]

It?s some sort of rendering issue that happens when you use a mobile device. There is a thread under tech support that explains it in more detail, I believe.

Remind me to keep my impressionable kids that are learning to read and write off this site then.


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[Acebird]

In most cases raw vs. pure on a label is marketing.  There is no governing body that polices the claims.  Think of all the varieties of honeys.  How pure are they?
What is funny is if you produce raw honey many people will be attracted to it but won't like the impurities or the fact that it crystallizes.  So raw is sold at farmers markets where the people searching for it already know what they are getting.  Pure is sold in a grocery market where the customer expects the honey to stay as it was purchased.  Ultra pure just extends shelf life so in a way it could be older.
So the bottom line is what you produce depends on who you sell to.  Unless you are a con.

[sc-bee]

In most cases raw vs. pure on a label is marketing.  There is no governing body that polices the claims.  Think of all the varieties of honeys.  How pure are they?
What is funny is if you produce raw honey many people will be attracted to it but won't like the impurities or the fact that it crystallizes.  So raw is sold at farmers markets where the people searching for it already know what they are getting.  Pure is sold in a grocery market where the customer expects the honey to stay as it was purchased.  Ultra pure just extends shelf life so in a way it could be older.
So the bottom line is what you produce depends on who you sell to. Unless you are a con.

What he said ..... a lot of folks in my area buy honey in bulk from out of state package it and call it LOCAL. There is no law binding definition in my state for LOCAL HONEY. Another trickery buzz word is  ORGANIC. How far do bees forage? ORGANIC HONEY is not produced in the United States.

[Ben Framed]

In a discussion we had about this here, a year or so ago, or perhaps I read it from the archives here. It seems that someone here told us that local honey is defined by your growing area. For example, zone 7 may stretch across several Southern States and this is what, if I remember correctly, what is considered local. (Zoning) I suppose because of similar plants in those zones? In other words a fellow in Georgia in a particular zone, may claim local all the way over into Mississippi IF they are in the same growing zone. This may not be accurate but was what I understood for the bottom line in the discussion. 

[Beeboy01]

This type of thread is always fun. I'm in Florida and have seen honey from Alabama being sold as "local" as well as Tupelo honey and sourwood honey. Even seen honey marked as "Gluten Free" in health food stores. Seems that there are a lot of "Salesmen" who really spin a tall tale about raw and local honey. Some of the honeys sold at craft fairs are going for $25.00 per pint.
   It's all in the marketing, I label my honey with the type and extraction date along with the weight. My table had a big "Local Honey" sign on it along with the prices and when asked I tell them I'm local. I don't talk up the Raw Honey angle of my product unless I'm asked and then only say it's been strained through stainless steel mesh to remove pieces of wax.
  My honey production is small enough so most goes to regular customers which is a nice way to move any extra. Farmers markets can be a hassle with shoppers trying to bargain down the price. 

[BurleyBee]

I appreciate all the responses.  I just got back from the grocery store.  Walked by the honey and saw a bottle labeled ?100% Pure Raw Unfiltered Organic Honey?.  I guess that covers all the bases 

[Oldbeavo]

Beeboy 01
We sell most of our honey at farmers markets, we never drop our price unless there is serious volume involed.
We sell 500g for $8. 1kg for $14, 1.5kg for $18 and 3kg for $30. so you see, increase the volume and the price gets better per kg.
For those who want to haggle these prices, like, will you sell a kg for $12, my answer is no, it will sell at the price tomorrow. It want go off.
Once the hagglers find you are not a soft touch, the hassle reduces to a non event.
Also you have the turkey who comes up and says "I can buy 3kg for $20 at my town, I just say "give me a phone number I want to buy it at that price"
If you believe your product is goog value then don't haggle.

[Acebird]

Farmers markets can be a hassle with shoppers trying to bargain down the price.

Oldbeavo is right don't haggle.  If you want to say something tell them you have a limited supply.  No reason to lower the price.  Adjust your prices when you are not in front of customers if you have to.

[Ben Framed]

Farmers markets can be a hassle with shoppers trying to bargain down the price.

Oldbeavo is right don't haggle.  If you want to say something tell them you have a limited supply.  No reason to lower the price.  Adjust your prices when you are not in front of customers if you have to.

Many are reporting in certain areas, a sharp decline in honey production this season, and if that is the case in your area,  you may say something like this;  "Due to the unseasonable cold and rainy weather due to Global Warming,"  (Yuppies and Millennials really love the Global Warming stuff), "the price may need to go up because of the lack of local, raw, healthy honey this season. I am trying to keep the price down but am considering going higher. May change my prices tomorrow."  lol
Do not haggle or drop your prices.

[sc-bee]

In a discussion we had about this here, a year or so ago, or perhaps I read it from the archives here. It seems that someone here told us that local honey is defined by your growing area. For example, zone 7 may stretch across several Southern States and this is what, if I remember correctly, what is considered local. (Zoning) I suppose because of similar plants in those zones? In other words a fellow in Georgia in a particular zone, may claim local all the way over into Mississippi IF they are in the same growing zone. This may not be accurate but was what I understood for the bottom line in the discussion.

Yep, that is what those beekeepers in South Carolina that cross over into South Georgia to buy those barrels to repack will tell you. But I assure you that ain't what the customer thinks they are getting when they buy it. The customer thinks that label that has that SC address on it came from bees in SC not South Georgia

[CoolBees]

... But I assure you that ain't what the customer thinks they are getting when they buy it. The customer thinks that label that has that SC address on it came from bees in SC not South Georgia

Very true! ... I went to the local farmers market (some years ago) to buy "pure, raw, wildflower, local" honey. I asked where the honey came from. Answer: "We don't know but we can find out and get back to you next week".

So I came back next week - and got this answer: "Monterey county - beek has 1000 hives". So I asked - does the beek treat the bees? If so, with what? ... and with 1000 hives, does the beek engage in Pollination? ... Same answer "next week" ...

So I came back next week and got this answer: "Yes to treatment, Yes to chemicals  [don't remember which ones now], and yes to Pollination".

Monterey County is heavily agriculture with lots of chemicals used - this I already know - so, not the honey I was looking for. ... and definitely NOT LOCAL to my definition.

Another place I contacted sold "local" honey ... when I pushed, the answer was "It's from a local farm in Georgia". ... What? Really!?!? ... that's like, more than 2000 miles away! Local -shimocal my ---!

.... that's how I ended up getting my own bees - to get my own Local Honey.

[Ben Framed]

In a discussion we had about this here, a year or so ago, or perhaps I read it from the archives here. It seems that someone here told us that local honey is defined by your growing area. For example, zone 7 may stretch across several Southern States and this is what, if I remember correctly, what is considered local. (Zoning) I suppose because of similar plants in those zones? In other words a fellow in Georgia in a particular zone, may claim local all the way over into Mississippi IF they are in the same growing zone. This may not be accurate but was what I understood for the bottom line in the discussion.

Yep, that is what those beekeepers in South Carolina that cross over into South Georgia to buy those barrels to repack will tell you. But I assure you that ain't what the customer thinks they are getting when they buy it. The customer thinks that label that has that SC address on it came from bees in SC not South Georgia

I heard it from a poster here at beemaster, who posted it for all the beemaster world to read.  I do not think he was trying to deceive when he posted it. Unless he was a crooked, honey by the barrel hauler, from South Carolina hauling form South Georgia which may very well be in a different growing zone? lol

You are right about folks wanting to know where it came from.  Almost everyone who goes to farmer markets are looking for the best quality and healthy foods and food products available, and are educated in that healthy value conscious minded way of thinking.  Most do, want to know where it came from. I do not blame them. Since we honest beekeepers, are supplying this great product of nature, in an unique atmosphere for such buyers, is just another reason why we should not budge on our pricing nor haggle about it, and not be timid or shy at charging a premium price for it. The true health conscious honey-eater already knows about the background of honey coming in from china and that sad story along with the type honey that many times comes from grocery stores.

Phillip Hall

[Dabbler]

I appreciate all the responses.  I just got back from the grocery store.  Walked by the honey and saw a bottle labeled ?100% Pure Raw Unfiltered Organic Honey?.  I guess that covers all the bases 

My honey only comes from "free range bees".     Another base covered !

[CoolBees]

I appreciate all the responses.  I just got back from the grocery store.  Walked by the honey and saw a bottle labeled ?100% Pure Raw Unfiltered Organic Honey?.  I guess that covers all the bases 

My honey only comes from "free range bees".     Another base covered !

[Ben Framed]

 BurleyBee Did you decide on your label design and wording?

[BurleyBee]

I tried to keep it simple and just go with Raw Honey.  I bought a Dymo Labelwriter for labels on the cheap.  I?m trying to post pics of label idea but having issues.