A Potential Change in Strategy

[Ben Framed]

I have learned a lot here at Beemaster. I still have MUCH to learn. Some of our friends in the far North overwinter in single brood boxes. What they do, ( At least in Ian Stepplers' case) is reduce the bees down to one box, feeding the bees a vast amount just before the winter (Hibernation), thus reaching a certain level of food (weight), lasting throughout the winter months. This has been discussed here.
While my location is nowhere as extreme as our friends to the North, My location is not nearly as warm as our friends further to the South. Does anyone with similar weather pattern such as mine, overwinter in single boxes throughout the winter months? I am in zone 7b. Is there the possibility that some of you even further South of zone 7b, overwinter in single brood boxes? Are there others in any other zone that would like to contribute with your thoughts? I thank you in advance.

[AR Beekeeper]

I have overwintered in one deep box, but I sleep better when I have a deep and a medium.  With one box you must feed until they will take no more, in other words they must have no empty cells, all cells should be full.  Having no fall nectar flow, usually I must feed five or six gallons of a 5:3 syrup to top a single out.  With our bees being so active in winter they use stores that a colony that is not active would not use.  Another problem is that in spring the weather is often so cold and wet that it is unhandy to carry feed to outyards.

Using a deep and a medium gives time for the weather to settle, and it assists in spring management.  One complaint about using queen excluders is that the bees will not go through the excluder into the supers.  If in early spring the queen is laying in the deep and the medium an excluder can be placed between them, splitting the brood area.  Because of the brood above the excluder nurse bees pass through with no hesitation.  Once the bees are moving between the two boxes they continue to pass through the excluder after the brood has all emerged.

The excluder is usually added when the colony has increased it's adult population and needs more living space.  The super with the brood stays just above the excluder and gives storage space for early nectar as the brood emerges.  When it is filled it remains for a food chamber for the colony, and the bees will move nectar/honey down as they need it.  The queen is below the excluder and the colony is back to the "single brood nest configuration."

When the supers for adult living space/surplus honey are added the one just above the food chamber should be offset to the rear creating an entrance for drone escape.  Also, seven days after the excluder is added the medium with brood should be checked for queen cells.

I like the single brood chamber, it makes inspections easier and helps with treatments for varroa.  Your area and mine are about equal as for going North or South, my elevation is 800 feet above sea level.  Our nectar flows are probably different if you are close to the Mississippi River, but over all our wintering should not differ much. 

[Ben Framed]

Thank you AR. 👍🏻

[AR Beekeeper]

Ben;  I just want to add that the overwintering success of singles, and that of the single deep and a medium, are the same.  Both styles of overwintering have a loss rate in my apiary of 4 to 8%.

[Oldbeavo]

We are running about 3/4 of our hives as singles this year. Normally about 1/2.
At the end of the season we keep capped honey to feed back to hives that get down on supplies.
I think the secret to packing down to singles is to pack down before the last honey flow finishes, so they do fill up on honey or as AR said feed to get the box full.
As a change of strategy goes, we move our bees about 200 miles to almonds and so carting doubles restricts the number we can cart in a load, both weight and volume.
So we are considering wintering all hives with a brood box and an ideal. Reduced volume and weight but the ideal will have to be on for the last honey flow. This will hopefully reduce the need for additional honey during winter, both reduces the opening of the hive and just the work load
Bees that are packed down tight do winter well and are not the hives we feed. We would feed more hive that are a bit down on bees as they tend to use more to keep warm or did not put in enough honey in the brood box in Autumn.

[van from Arkansas]

Good evening Mr. Ben, er uh, Phil.

In Arkansas I always over wintered in double deeps until last winter.  I tried a single deep, no supers, just a single deep and the hive thrived to my surprise and is well this day.  I tried about four nucs: double and triple box also last winter and not a single nuc survived.  I believe the narrow five frame nucs did not afford the insulation of a ten frame.  I have one insulated, R8, styrofoam hive, 2 deeps that has thrived for 2 winters and still going.

In Houston Texas, for a decade I always over wintered in a single deep with one super.  Three hives survived for 10 years until I left for college and Dad gave the bees to another beek.  This was prior to Varroa and small hive beetle.

Cheers

[van from Arkansas]

We are running about 3/4 of our hives as singles this year. Normally about 1/2.
At the end of the season we keep capped honey to feed back to hives that get down on supplies.
I think the secret to packing down to singles is to pack down before the last honey flow finishes, so they do fill up on honey or as AR said feed to get the box full.
As a change of strategy goes, we move our bees about 200 miles to almonds and so carting doubles restricts the number we can cart in a load, both weight and volume.
So we are considering wintering all hives with a brood box and an ideal. Reduced volume and weight but the ideal will have to be on for the last honey flow. This will hopefully reduce the need for additional honey during winter, both reduces the opening of the hive and just the work load
Bees that are packed down tight do winter well and are not the hives we feed. We would feed more hive that are a bit down on bees as they tend to use more to keep warm or did not put in enough honey in the brood box in Autumn.

Cheers to you, Mr. Beavo.  What are the average winter temps in your area?  Arkansas is single digits, 8F for low, most nights average in the 20F with highs average 40F.  Generally speaking, rarely we see negative, below zero F.  Last Christmas, 12/25/2019 was 68F?  Go figure??!

[Robo]

I'm in zone 5 and my preferred overwintering strategy is a single deep.   Of course I can not always knock them all down to a single so do take 10-20% into winter with 2 deeps.   

However, with that said I use polystyrene and I am a strong proponent of insulated hives.   One thing beekeepers have not learned over the century is the importance of heat retention for the bees.   If you look at some of the data Derek Mitchell has produced,  it is evident we are doing the bees no favor by keeping them in 3/4 pine boxes.   Derek's data shows that a "typical" tree cavity  (per Tom Seeley's research) can withstand outside temperatures of -40 before the bees will cluster.   Hence my hypothesis that clustering is not natural for bees but rather a defense mechanism for survival.   I know there are a lot of theories that active bees consume more stores and will starve quicker.  This is contrary to my experience of over a decade (closer to two) keeping bees in polystyrene.   Even during the coldest winters my single deeps will still have 2-3 frames of honey in the spring.   A smaller space is much easier for them to manage and stay warm in.   The smaller hives build up much quicker in the spring than the 2 deep hives because of this.


A single in February

[van from Arkansas]

Robo:  you typed MINUS 40.  Did you mean minus?  My bee cluster at 40F.  I can?t be sure if this is for heat retention or stress to other factors.

One last question: is that a pink bee hive in the pic, really PINK?  Who painted the color on the hive?

[CapnChkn]

Phil, yep, I don't think it's that big a deal here at our latitude to worry about the number of brood boxes.  They seem to do well in anything that keeps them safe.  I don't know about building up in the spring, it works for me they have a lot of room...

I agree with Robo.  Bees are from the tropics, and like us humans, they found a way to keep warm where it got cold enough it was dangerous to fly.  It seems to me, a hypothesis of my own, that they found a way to protect their stores from enemies by building in a cavity.  Then they built in a cooler place; getting out before the other species.  In evolutionary science, that's called "Competition."  The other, unless I'm just some old fart, favorite is adaptation.

Competition describes the species having problems with an opposing species for the same food or living space.  It will force a species to change it's food source, or outdo the competing species for resources.  In this case, we learned to build fire, sew clothing, and build tents so we could follow animals into places we usually wouldn't go.

With bees, they learned to build in a fortress.  That gave them the chance to store and stay strong.  But is also protected them from the weather and climate.  A happy accident.  This gave them the ability to build in a microclimate, one protected by the thickness outside the wood of a tree cavity, and stay in the climate of something on the winter weather of North Carolina, instead of the sub-zero temperatures of a Minnesota day.

I'm also guessing (Yes, doubters, just guessing.  But with evidence...) the impulse to store, from the dry climate of Africa, they retain the impulse to fill every empty space with food for lean times.  I'm reminded of a Jack London story about a starving sailor.  When rescued, he would accept any bit of salt pork or hard tack.  He would then hide it in odd places around his bunk.

My thinking is, they don't really need a lot of stores at our latitude.  We have plenty of flying days, and when it's warm enough, they can go out and forage the Maples in January.  But when the space is too cramped, they start doing funny things to compensate.  They can't deal with extended cold spells.  When it's warm they fill up the space and start swarming.

Mostly I'm thinking they just need room to expand in the spring.  I have no problem overwintering a 5 frame nuc, but put a couple of supers on those 3 mediums, before the SHB gets to be a problem, and they knock themselves out to fill those empty frames with honey.

[Ben Framed]

Mr AR, Your are the first to tell mw of 5 to 3 mix. I really like the idea of this mixture. The bees will be able to dry the moisture content of this slightly thicker mixture for capping in a faster time frame, just when a faster timeframe may be needed most in late fall. 2-1 which equals 6-3 is slightly thinner. That is what I have noticed some beekeepers use in fall for winter stores.  Everything you said makes perfect sense. As always I thank you for opening your thoughts and sharing good information which I perceive as education. It must be wonderful being a member of a beekeepers association where two members such as yourself and Mr van share the same membership. What a blessed organization you all have. Again thank you. I would hope some day to visit your bee club and sit in on one of your meetings. What a treat that would be for me to meet you both as well as your other members. 

Mr Van It is good to hear the good news of your thriving single over wintered deep hive. This is reassuring and as well as encouraging. The information that you have provided goes along with some of the good information the other beekeepers here are reporting. Thank you very much for always helping me. I appreciate you Arkansas Beekeepers! What I said to Mr AR includes you equally my friend.

Olbeavo, I am assuming you weather is warmer than mine which is encouraging.  I always appreciate your replies to my questions. It is refreshing to hear your reports since you are from not only another country, but another continent.  You and your outfits? dealing with pollination has alway interested me by arousing my curiosity of the life of you pollinators. I have watched videos of such in Australia, though older films. Thank you for you educational replies and keep up the good work of making those crops prosper!

Robo the use polystyrene insulated hives seem to be really catching on.  Apparently you was a pioneer in this idea.  The importance of heat retention for the bees is a point you have well made. You, like the others I have mentioned have always given top notch advise. I went back and read some of your posting, even before I was a member here, I have great respect for you opinions. Thank you for posting here on this topic.

CapChkn I agree, I don't think it's that big a deal here at our latitude to worry about the number of brood boxes either.  You are right, they seem to do well in anything that keeps them safe.  As far as building up in the spring, My theory is they may build up faster in one box, (tight quarters). IF we are on top of things and add the extra Spring box at the RIGHT time. The reason I said this is because My first year, I over-wintered 5, five frame nucs and brother let me tell you, they took of in the spring, built up at breakneck speed. I am guessing it was because of the close quarters and warmth that was the key? Along with early open pollen feeding and early sugar syrup feeding. You and I are not in as colder climate as Robo. I learned overwintering 5 frame nucs from Michael Palmer which is up North, and early feeding from David at Barnyard Bees. Which is due East of me. Thank you for your reply, much appreciated. I am glad you are a member here. Keep the good deep thoughts and ideas coming!

Phillip

[Oldbeavo]

Mr Van
Our latitude is the same as the following cities in the US
Nashville, Durham,Tulsa, Las Vegas and Oaklahoma city.
We have cold days in winter, 12-16 C, nights -2 to 6C. Summer warm nites and a dry climate,days 35-42C with extremes to 45C. We had a 46C this summer.
Bees spend summer in shade by 11:00 for the rest of the day where possible.

[Acebird]

it is evident we are doing the bees no favor by keeping them in 3/4 pine boxes.

That is why I built brood boxes out of 5/4 stock.  For supers it doesn't matter.  And down here in FL it doesn't matter.

[Robo]

Robo:  you typed MINUS 40.  Did you mean minus?  My bee cluster at 40F.  I can?t be sure if this is for heat retention or stress to other factors.

Yes, minus 40.   Here is a chart from Derek's Facebook page.  For those that aren't aware, -40C and -40F are the same (crossover point of the conversion formula).  Even with polystyrene we are a long way from the insulation value of a tree with 6" walls.   Believe it or not,  todays poly hives have about the same MCR and the old dung covered skeps.  So the Langstroth hive was a huge step backwards.

One last question: is that a pink bee hive in the pic, really PINK?  Who painted the color on the hive?

Come on, everyone knows girls like pink!

They are start with an oops! shade of red barn paint.   Some have a pinkish hue ones they start to fade.

[beesnweeds]

Everybody assumes that all bee trees are a thick hollow wooden utopia for a colony.  That couldn't be further from the truth.  Some of the bee tree cut outs I've done and helped with are in trees that are so rotted and thin you could poke your finger though it.  One had an entrance on the west side that wind and water could blow in.  Some of them are damp as well with rotting wood.  Depending on cavity size most of them are as strong as you would expect a hive to be.  I also witnessed abandoned hives crooked and rotting out with holes in them that had healthy colonies.  It gets 30 below here and sometimes lower and I never wrap my hives, just wind block them.  Like a lot of things beekeeping there's always some x factor we just don't understand.  Bees are incredibly adaptable, that's probably why they have been around awhile.

[Robo]

Everybody assumes that all bee trees are a thick hollow wooden utopia for a colony.

Interesting because I know no one that believes that.  That is why we use a "typical" bee tree when we discuss.  You are correct, there is a wide variance in trees that bees live in and bees are survivors.   However there is a big difference between surviving and thriving.   Homeless people also survive the winters on the streets of New York City,  it that the standards that the rest of us should be expected to live in?   Obviously hollow trees are getting near the end of their life and get less "ideal" as time goes on and eventually decay to the point of collapse.   Yes bees can "survive" in these conditions for a period of time before they too perish.   "Surviving" colonies do not build up as quick or as big as "thriving" colonies and in the feral situation do not swarm and propagate as often.

Ever see an open air colony survive here in upstate NY?  Yet they can survive in the south.   

Here is a bee tree that was ripped open by a windstorm we had in March this year.   It is hard to tell by the photo but the combs where over 6 ft long and where mostly covered by bees and brood.  It packed full 3 deep boxes.  You will be hard pressed to find traditional langstroth hive beekeepers in NY having colonies this size in March.

  Like a lot of things beekeeping there's always some x factor we just don't understand. 

Agree, and I'll also add there is a lot that beekeepers don't want to understand because it conflicts with what they have been taught to believe.

[beesnweeds]

Likewise I don't know anybody who knows or believes there's a "typical" bee tree.  I also agree that some colonies are surviving while others are thriving.  Is it because they are in a tree or a poly hive?  Most likely the influence of pest and diseases.

[Robo]

It is many factors that come into play.   I have found feral colonies to be much better mentors than beekeepers.   The more I can replicate feral colonies in my beekeeping the better success I have had.   The biggest so far was getting away from the "Cold doesn't kill bees, moisture does" mantra.   There are just so many modern day practices that contradict what feral colonies.  Heck, for all I know the lack of light and and a constant scent retention may be the real key for feral colonies thriving. 

I'm not here to convince anyone, just sharing my experiences for those that ask and are open minded.   In fact the first thing I tell my students is don't believe anything I say just because I said it.   Be a critical thinker and do things because you understand why you are doing it and agree with it, not just because that is what you were told or read in a book.  I see too many 3 years and done beekeepers.

I'm fine if you disagree with my practices,  it doesn't hurt my feelings or ego one bit.   I wish everyone the best with their beekeeping.  If I wanted to argue I would be in the coffee house.   I'm done here,  you can have the last word.

[Ben Framed]

Quote
Like a lot of things beekeeping there's always some x factor we just don't understand. 

This is true. I have always thought, (though maybe incorrectly), insects shy away from cedar, as cedar is a natural repellent oh insects. I know, this very day where there is a colony of bees 🐝 that are living in a hollow, live, cedar tree 🌲..  How long I do not know, but I do know at least three years. The next time I am in the area I will try and remember to take a picture and post here.

[Absinthe]

I don't think aromatic cedar is a deterrent to many insects other than wool-worms/clothing moths. Certainly doesn't bother mosquitos, ants, or even #$%%^ carpenter bees. I had a neighbor that got carpenter bees in his cedar siding every year, followed by woodpeckers to add insult to injury :) He would replace 3 boards every year.

There is a fellow around here that sells all cedar hives at a serious premium on CL and since I see the ads every year he must sell a bunch of them.  I have not heard cedar do anything to deter bees, wax moths, or SHB ... or varroa. Wouldn't that be nice.. :)