Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?

[armjr]

Former beekeeper from the 80s, the 1980s?. Became allergic and had to give it up but my gardening still requires that I take care of the Bees. 

I will pose my question here.  My pine trees (I have about 20) have been attacked by pine borer beetles.  I've already lost one tree and there's holes in the rest of them.  The way to stop them is to drench around the tree with Domion 2L.  I also use Termidor very sparingly applied to fire ant mounds.  Both are systemic to plants and very bad for bees. 

Will the drench on the pine trees kill my bees?  I know they use the sap, I don't know how much pollen they collect from them. 

I need to save the pines and save the bees at the same time.  Any suggestions?

Alan

[Ben Framed]

Armjr welcome to Beemaster! I for one do not know the answer to your questions. Maybe you can contact the manufacturer of the product and get more information there? Please let us know what you find.. And thanks for watching out for the Honey Bees!   

Phillip

[armjr]

We really like our bees, all of them, and wasps too.  We love to sit out in the mornings and watch the honeybees on the mexican heather and the big old bumble bees doing their thing with the salvia.  Every now and then a hummingbird will swoop in for a drink.  Our purplehull peas and green beans depend on all the pollinators to make a crop, but I haven?t found anything I like about pine borer beetles?. or fire ants? or cut ants?

Alan

[Ben Framed]

but I haven?t found anything I like about pine borer beetles?. or fire ants? or cut ants?

lol neither have I Alan!!

Phillip

[The15thMember]

Welcome to Beemaster, Alan!    Thanks for being sure that your pesticide application is done responsibly.  I almost lost a hive to pesticide kill this year and it was very sad, so it's great that you are being careful. 

I'm not an expert in this by any means, but I did a little looking at both products.  Dominion 2L is an imidacloprid product, which as you say, is a persistent and highly toxic systemic insecticide.  The biggest concern I have about it is that according to the label, it can persist in woody plants for 12 months, meaning that even if you applied it in winter, it would still be present in the tree during the spring and summer when the bees are flying.  The other common neonic used for beetles, dinotefuran, persists just as long.  Both pesticides have been linked to numerous bee kills.

I'm less concerned about the Termidor, since I see that fipronil, the active ingredient, isn't absorbed well by plants, even though it is very toxic to bees and persists for years in the soil.  My concern about it however, is that it won't work well for you on the beetles, because the tree won't absorb it well.   

This is a tough one, because a systemic insecticide would obviously work best to control a boring insect, and you will need to apply it less, which can be safer for pollinators.  But the insecticides we are talking about are very dangerous to pollinators inherently, with both lethal and sub-lethal effects, so a different type of insecticide would be desirable.  It's kind of a toss-up in my mind.

You can certainly do what you feel is best in your situation, but if it were me, if your property has a pretty healthy ecosystem, which is sounds like it does, I'd let the infestation go if possible, and see what predators come to deal with the borer beetles.  That way you wouldn't have to use any pesticides.  But I also understand if you are past that point already, and feel like risking a drastic step is necessary.

All insects have a purpose in their ecosystem webs, even it's just to be the bottom of a food chain.  Beetles and ants that break down trees and wood perform parasite/host interactions with the plants they infest to strengthen the population of trees by attacking weaker plants and returning the nutrients bound up in the tree to the soil.   

[armjr]

We had a pair of pileated woodpeckers around for years.  They disappeared this year.  I imagine they kept the beetles in check somewhat.  I have noticed a good many pines in the area dying.  I think the drought allowed the beetles to do more damage than nature would keep up with. I also lost two hackberries, two Arizona Ash and a sweet gum.  All to borers.

Last year I saw a swarm go over the back yard.  I followed them for about 300 yards hoping I?d see them settle in on something but they outran me.  My wife said she heard a lot of bees just this afternoon.  She said it was really loud and kinda faded away.  It had to be a swarm. I don?t know how good they are going to do right now.  Something may have disturbed their hive and they moved. 

I?ll have to research the dominion thing a little more.  Thanks for the advice and direction.

Alan
 

[Michael Bush]

How much of the ground do you have to drench?  Can you put something over it to keep bees etc. out?  I doubt the bees will take much interest in the drench and pines don't make much that interests the bees.

[armjr]

I can water in the drench and right now there?s nothing around the trees that bees would want.  What I am concerned about is as the trees transfer the poison up through the phloem to kill the beetles and larvae it will be in the sap and ultimately in any pollen produced. If there is sufficient poison in the tree to kill a beetle larvae, there certainly could be enough to kill a bee or many bees if they do indeed gather pine pollen and sap for propolis. 

Alan

[BeeMaster2]

Armjr,
Bees don?t normally collect pine pollen. It is an airborne pollen and very low in nutrients. When pines are producing pollen usually there is enough other plants producing pollen that they prefer.
The only pine pollen that they would collect is the pollen that is attracted to their bodies as they fly and it would bee too small to worry about.
Jim Altmiller

[Ben Framed]

Taking the point of Beemaster2 into consideration, (bees do not collect pine pollen), my recommendation of contacting the manufacturer of this product still stands from my point of view. The studies should reveal whether or not this product is a threat to 'Honey Bees' as well as others.. Please let us know your findings.

Phillip

[The15thMember]

there certainly could be enough to kill a bee or many bees if they do indeed gather pine pollen and sap for propolis. 

The proplis collection is the bigger concern in my opinion.  I agree with everyone else that the risk of them collecting large amounts of pine pollen is minimal, but I would think it could be a serious problem for a colony to coat the interior of their hive in propolis laced with an insecticide. 

[Ben Framed]

there certainly could be enough to kill a bee or many bees if they do indeed gather pine pollen and sap for propolis. 

The proplis collection is the bigger concern in my opinion.  I agree with everyone else that the risk of them collecting large amounts of pine pollen is minimal, but I would think it could be a serious problem for a colony to coat the interior of their hive in propolis laced with an insecticide. 

The manufacturers study will, (or should), be able to answer 'all' questions concerning any threat, or potential danger to the 'Honey Bee' as well as other bees....

[The15thMember]

I think that contacting the manufacturer is a good idea, but something to keep in mind about product labeling for pollinator safety is that sublethal effects are rarely tested for, meaning that the application according to label may be considered "safe" in the sense that it won't kill the bees outright, but it can still have very negative effects on their health.  Also hardly any pesticides are tested on bees other than honey bees, and often the effects are more pronounced in bumble bees and solitary bees, since they don't have a huge colony to replace losses or lost productivity due to pesticide exposures. 

[Ben Framed]

We have every right to be concerned.  I do know the Honey Bee collect propolis from pine as well as other trees. I do not know more than that pertaining to the product in relation to the HOney Bee. 
One might ask, "Will there be enough of this product in the propolis when the bee reaches the area of collection, to kill bees?"  "If so will it kill the bee before it can return to the hive with the load of propolis?"  "What are the effects on the bees, short term and long?"  These are good questions to ask the manufacturer, or even the folks at the EPA if satisfaction is not reached from the manufacturer.
Now would be a good time for a suggestion list of questions, for the convenience of armjr to consider when he contacts the company.

[BeeMaster2]

Keep in mind, bees don?t eat propolis. They do not feed it to the larvae. They do soften it and pack it into spaces smaller than bee space.
I don?t think that it will affect your bees.
Jim Altmiller

[Ben Framed]

Thanks Jim. I knew they don't use it as food, but what I 'didn't and don't' know is how they 'transport and transform' it,
( or process it if you will), for their use.
I had 'assumed' they ingest for each? I'm Still learning..  

Phillip

[The15thMember]

Keep in mind, bees don?t eat propolis. They do not feed it to the larvae. They do soften it and pack it into spaces smaller than bee space.
I don?t think that it will affect your bees.
Jim Altmiller

True, they aren't ingesting propolis, but imidacloprid is still dangerous to bees as a contact insecticide.  The LD50 number (the dose needed to kill half of the individuals in the toxicity test) for honey bees when ingested is 5-70 nanograms per bee, whereas the contact LD50 is 60-240 nanograms.   

Thanks Jim. I knew they don't use it as food, but what I 'didn't and don't' know is how they 'transport and transform' it for their use. I had 'assumed' they ingested for each? I'm Still learning..  

Phillip

Bees carry resin in their pollen baskets and then make it into propolis by mixing it with some beeswax and saliva.   

[armjr]

Ok, I have some questions already.


1. Will the drench remain in the soil in the root zone of flowering plants long enough to for bees to ingest it collecting pollen and nectar?
2. Does Dominion 2L have to be ingested or will it kill by contact with plant sap and/or proximity?
3.


Alan

[Ben Framed]

Bees carry resin in their pollen baskets and then make it into propolis by mixing it with some beeswax and saliva.

Thanks Reagan, good stuff. So you are saying the bees chew it, mix saliva with it as well, adding beeswax , but do not ingest. If that is the case, and knowing what we know about pine pollen not being in their diet; Adding I have found nothing that bees collect pine nectar which is naught or non applicable because pine does not produce nectar?

All of that being taken into consideration, hypothetically the bees have no reason to die or get sick form the product in question (unless contact through the collected substance will kill them as they chew)? Either way I would still recommend armjr contact the manufacturer of the product for the purpose of seeking answers to 'all' his questions, just for good measure.. 

[The15thMember]

1. Will the drench remain in the soil in the root zone of flowering plants long enough to for bees to ingest it collecting pollen and nectar?

If you are speaking of the Dominion, the drench will be taken up by the plants and incorporated into all of its tissues, so into its pollen, nectar, resin, leaves, stem, flowers, seed, etc.  It will not remain only in the soil.  If it did, it would be pretty safe for use around honey bees, although it could affect native bees nesting in the soil of course.  But because the insecticide is present all throughout the plant and in any substance it produces, and can remain active in the plant for a year, it has the potential to affect bees and other insects eating or collecting materials from the tree.

For the Termidor, it won't be taken up by the plants much at all, so it's not a big concern for bees, except of course soil nesting ones.

2. Does Dominion 2L have to be ingested or will it kill by contact with plant sap and/or proximity?

Dominion 2L (imidacloprid) must be ingested by insects or at least contact them to kill them, proximity is not an issue.  It is more toxic when ingested, but is still lethal to bees in physical contact with it if the dosage is high enough or exposure is prolonged enough.  If the Dominion is present in high enough concentration in the tree's sap and the bees collect it for use in making propolis, it could kill the bees who have contact with that propolis.  I do not know if drenching the tree following the label's instructions will make the tree's resin carry a lethal dose or not, nor do I know what sub-lethal effects there could be on the bees. 

Without doing the math, which I may try to do if I have the time, I don't know if it's realistic to assume the dosage of Dominion would be high enough or bee's contact with the propolis while making it or simply existing in the hive with it would be prolonged enough to harm enough bees to make a significant difference to the functioning of the hive.  I'm simply saying that it's theoretically possible and should be taken into consideration as part of the risk of using this pesticide.     

[armjr]

Thank you all for the great response.  I?ll try and give the manufacturer a call in the morning.  I?ll email the county agent tomorrow as well.  You guys have given me a lot of useful information. 

I really do miss keeping a few hives. I used to look forward to the Guajillo flow every year to get that wonderfull light honey.  Working the few hives I had was a very calming activity.  Those little girls could sense the slightest agitation and certainly wouldn?t tolerate being rushed. 

One day I was helping a friend load some hives he was moving from one ranch to another and my end slipped and I dropped it about 1? onto the truck bed.  Out they came looking for revenge.  I?m not real sure about how many times I got stung but it was way more than was comfortable? I didn?t swell up then, but the next time I got stung (on the wrist) some days later, my hand swelled up so much I couldn?t even use it.  The time after that it was worse.  I figured I was just a matter of time before I got one on the neck or head and that was going to be a major problem.  Benadryl stops the swelling but it?s not fun at all until then.  I keep dozing off while typing.  I guess I?d better hit the sack.

Alan

[The15thMember]

I've had bees for 5 years, and I swell up almost every time.  It's just part of it for me.  I always wear a full suit, and I've been using plantain more this year because I can't stand how drowsy the Benadryl makes me.  I didn't get stung much late in the season this year, so I'm not sure, but I think my reactions are started to get a little better.  Or maybe I'm just hoping. 

I love working my bees too.  When everything is going well, it's almost meditative.  I know I would miss them terribly if I couldn't have bees anymore.  Maybe you'll get another chance at a swarm next season. 

[animal]

Hey,
Do you have any success rates from people that have actually used Dominion 2L on the pine beetles with the goal of saving the tree?

I checked with several tree guys and all of them use Bifen except one that uses Permethrin. Claimed success rates vary, but usually low. None of them bother trying it unless it's an ornamental or yard tree. Timber, they cut the tree and it's neighbor trees and sometimes spray the perimeter of the affected area. A few try to salvage the wood for the mill depending on where it is, how much it is, and other things. Some chip the bark on the popcorn spots to try to get the poison in deeper, all soak the ground close to the tree. They must do it heavily because one mentioned a cost of about $40 per tree in poison (and these guys buy the big jugs) just to try it.

Anyway, please post the results of whatever method and chemical you use. There are some tree guys in MS who are very interested.

[The15thMember]

I did notice that on the Dominion label it said that trees under stress from boring beetles may not recover even after application, which didn't sound promising.

Bifen and Permethrin are both pyrethroids, so they aren't systemic, which makes them much safer for bees than a neonic like Dominion.  Pyrethroids last weeks, not months, in a plant, so using them in winter (if it's cold enough that bees aren't really flying where you live) would be quite safe for pollinators.  As to whether they will work or not I can't say, but they are certainly the safer choice for bees.   

[armjr]

Well, I kinda dropped the ball Friday? I went fishing instead of taking care of business (making calls)? Caught some crappie though(10).  The Dominion 2L and a gallon of permethrin was delivered from DoMyOwn.  I?ll start with spray applications of Permethrin while I continue to research the effects of the Dominion 2L.  I may do a drench on the one tree that is affected the worst. 

Alan

[animal]

Good luck ...

Fishing isn't dropping the ball. It's mental preparation 

[Ben Framed]

Good luck ...

Fishing isn't dropping the ball. It's mental preparation 

X-2. I agree!!!      And Crappie to boot!! Yum!!

[The15thMember]

10 crappie is worth way more, definitely a better use of your time.   

I think that's fair, to use the Dominion on the worst tree and the pemethrin on the rest.  I agree that contacting the manufacturers would be a good idea still, but I think that sounds like a pretty good plan as far as mitigating the risks for the bees while still doing what you can for the trees.

[animal]

If we're talking about the southern pine beetle ...

https://www.mfc.ms.gov/forest-health/forest-pests/southern-pine-beetle/#:~:text=Life%20Cycle&text=The%20southern%20pine%20beetle%20has,as%20nine%20generations%20per%20year.

Personally, I would either nuke them with whatever I thought would be most effective(including combinations thereof after checking if they can be tank mixed), or get a jug of bar oil and mix some fuel. If all trees are affected, chances are the chainsaw will get some use unless you caught things really early.

Permethrin is "hotter" than bifen. Faster kill and doesn't last as long. Think gasoline versus diesel if it were a fire. You may have to spray more often with it.

[BeeMaster2]

Arm,
I received some Pine Bark Beetle training at a land owners meeting this year.  I recommend that the first thing you do is call your local ag agent. They have expert that can determine which of the main 3 species that you have. Each is different and damages the trees in different ways. The first thing he will do is peal off some bark to determine which one you have.
Jim Altmiller

[armjr]

I contacted Ag Extension agent.  He recommended permethrin and had no opinion on the drench.  My BIL has a Doctorate in Agronomy and works with corn and cotton and has some experience with Dominion 2L.  His opinion was that if used improperly it would very adversely affect pollinators but using it as I described would have minimal affect on bees et al? So, I drenched all the trees with the lowest recommended dosage and sprayed with permethrin.  The one tree most affected was nearly all brown and was getting worse daily.  I don?t know how long it takes for a pine tree to transpire enough to get poison into the phloem or how quickly the permethrin works, but, the browning stopped.  There are several little green limbs still hanging on? So, I?m going to declare a small bit of success.  The bees are still working the Mexican heather, probably their last flow, such as it is, before spring.  We?ve had several days of rain with clearing on Tuesday and Wednesday.  I?ll hit them again with permethrin then. 

Thanks for all the responses.  I really do try to use pesticides as little as possible.  This was one of those times when it just had to be.

Alan

[The15thMember]

Thank you for being a responsible pesticide user.  We beekeepers really, really appreciate it.  Keep us updated on how things go with the trees, and of course if you end up catching a swarm in the spring. 

[animal]

Did you identify the species of beetle?