Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Terri Yaki on February 24, 2024, 07:04:26 am
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I looked but didn't find anything that looked like what I am looking for so...here I am.
For a first year beek, I have plenty of boxes and frames and want to set up a swarm trap. I have two sections of scaffolding that I can put up out back easily enough so I was thinking of using that. It would put me about 10' up and I expect that to be suitable. I schmutzed up some frames with slum gum and got a couple of frames of comb off of my neighbor. Now for the deets, deep or medium frame and how should I arrange their alluring new home? Should I add some other baits like lemongrass oil and/or maybe some slumgum or will a couple of frames of old comb and the schmutzed up frames suffice? And how many frames should I use for this?
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I am assuming your equipment is new and does not have the luxury of 'bee smell' as seasoned wood-ware. There are ways to attract bees. Speaking from personal experience I would recommend placing traps with the insides painted or smeared with slum-gum. A frame or two of drawn comb is good also and will help as well. Any slum-gum is better than none. Bees love the smell!!
I would also recommend finishing filling the box with frames of foundation. For instance if you use a 5 frame nuc, don't use just 4 frames in your swarm box. Use 5 whether drawn comb or a combination with added frames 'with' foundation. Bees will make short order of setting up housekeeping when they reach their new home. They will be 'busy as bees' drawing new comb and the queen will soon go straight to laying. This practice will help insure that the bees will not have room for cross combing empty space.
Location is important as well. For instance If there are know bee hives in the area the chances are better. Close proximity to a beekeeper with several hives would be favorable. Bees do at least two 'major' things among others, reproduce/multiply and produce honey.
Phillip
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I agree with Ben except that I would only put one old drawn frame one side or the other and the rest of the frames should bee foundation less. Our at least 2 boxes with only one box with frames in it. Use a q-tip dipped in lemongrass oil and wipe it around the entrance. Take the q-tip and place it in a zip lock bag, seal it and drop in in the bottom of the box. Strap the box with a ratchet strap and put it no more than 6 feet high preferably in shade. Bees mark the entrance with their nazinof Glands and it is almost the exact same thing as lemongrass oil.
The scout bees will measure the inside of your trap by walking around both directions. If it is full of foundation they may not accept it. You can put drawn comb instead. They like it better t you stand the chance of loosing it to wax moths.
I have caught at least 4 huge swarms with this setup, the first ones were just 5 medium supers that I put the frames in the top box, added a top entrance and a lid. All of these swarms were so large that they made lots of honey the first year.
Bee sure to move them into a hive with additional frames, if it really large, no more than 7 days. If you wait longer than that they will have lots of cross comb under the frames.
Jim Altmiller
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Here are two pictures of a swarm that moved into what I just described. I couldn?t get to this hive until the tenth day and this is how much comb they built. Above the exposed comb is a medium box with one old drawn comb and nine empty frames. They filled all of the frames perfectly.
Jim Altmiller
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Nice pictures Jim. Thats why I recommend foundation on all frames which are without comb in the catch box, and in a second box also 'if used'. (Simply to avoid a comb mess.)
They will immediately get busy upon arrival. I used a 5 frame nuc set up catch box just for an example. This seems to be a preference by many. In my opinion a regular 10 frame deep set up gives that needed 'room for acceptance' even with frames of foundation.. Thus eliminating comb and cross problems, while getting your new swarm off to a good start. (Remember, new white comb is hard to reuse or 'cut out' for reuse because of its softness)...
Phillip
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"BeeMaster2''
All of these swarms were so large that they made lots of honey the first year.
Jim I have also noticed new big swarms make honey the first year. I have also noticed colonies which were swarmed from, seem to lag behind..
Phillip
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I hope I'm so lucky. I'll get that out in the next day or two so when the swarm swarms, I'll bee ready.
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There was a pinned post some time back about equipment for swarm catching. If you intend to chase them rather than just attract them, you can put together a kit and be ready to go.
Put your name on swarm catching lists and let your local fire dept and pesticide companies know that you are available. Also check with any university that is close to you and has an ag extension.
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I catch a couple of swarms in traps each year. Not great as I have about 15 traps out. I am lazy and leave them out all year and just throw a little lemon grass oil in them each march along the line as jim said, qtip in baggy. I use one deep and as jim said, use foundationless frames. If I have a frame of dark brood comb, I might throw that in also and it probably helps but like I said, I am usually too lazy to do so. I put some of them at my family's houses and ask them to call me if they see bees messing with the entrance. I find bees don't care about the traps unless they are looking for a home and so if a bee is seen to be interested and I get call, odds are pretty good. I keep a trap in my back yard that I can see regularly and it helps me as when I see a bee messing with it, I know it is a good time to go look at my hives and look at the trees around them incase one of my hives has swarmed. Most times if a hive does swarm, they will not go far and will be in a tree close to the hives and you can just shake them into a box. I have saved several of mine this way. Good luck.
I also agree with putting the traps low enough to reach them from the ground easily. It just is not worth doing more and higher is just too much of a hassle. I make little platforms that I slide the deep on and that way when I catch one I can just take another trap with me and when I pick the bees up, put a new trap back. This cuts down on trips to and from.
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OK, I got one out, here's what it looks like. I went with a medium on the bottom with empty frames and a deep up top with slumgum schmutzed foundations and four frames of old comb in it from my neighbor. They were treated in the freezer for a few days a while ago. I'll track down some lemongrass oil and add that when I get it. Oh, should I put an entrance reducer or anything on it?
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I hope I'm so lucky. I'll get that out in the next day or two so when the swarm swarms, I'll bee ready.
I'll track down some lemongrass oil and add that when I get it.
Terri just word of caution concerning lemongrass oil. I have 'been told' a little lemongrass goes a long way and too much can backfire and work as a deterrent.
Good luck Terri. I wish you success!
Phillip
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More good swarm stuff from the archives.
Phillip
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=51118.msg450937#msg450937
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Terri
My opinion, get rid of the medium. Just makes it harder to handle and adds nothing to the trap. May do nothing good and is possible may make the space not as good to a bee. I think if you got rid of most of the foundation, the bees would like the space better. They measure by walking and flying. Not saying I am an expert, just that I have did some trapping and a lot of reading.
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Terri,
In my experience, the empty box underneath is great for attracting very large swarms. Just make sure you get into the hive and frames within five days.
I filled 2 medium boxes with eleven old drawn comb frames that I will not use for supers. I shaved off a little from the frame sides to make eleven frames fit in a ten frame box. This is what Michael Bush does in his brood boxes. One bee can heat 6 cells instead of three. Three on one side and three on the frame next to if. Great for fast build up.
Jim Altmiller
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I just remember thomas seeley's study on swarm traps where they set out three sizes and came up with 40 liters being most preferred by the bees and them by passing the 100 liter. I know one hundred is bigger then a medium and a deep but also know that 40 liters is one deep. It is just guidelines as I had a swarm move into a dead out with three mediums of drawn comb. I also know though that I have put out double medium traps and never caught a swarm in them but did catch one in a single medium once and truthfully based on seeley really just added little curtains to the bottom mediums to make them deeps and have the most luck with them big or small swarm.
The double mediums were no fun to handle when a deep would do and seemed to catch better. I run all mediums and put medium foundationless frames in the deeps cause that is what I have and try to get the swarms the day they move in so they don't have time to draw comb on the bottom space of the frame when in a deep. Then they transfer better into my normal hive equipment with out destroying any of the work they have did drawing comb.
Also, moving the swarms home early as I know I have them same day, I don't worry about blocking the exit or putting something in front of it to orient the bees and they seem to orient well to wherever I put them. I have no doubt that bees might move into about anything but why make it harder on my self. Secondly, the swarm that did move into the only medium I ever caught in was probably one of the biggest swarms I have ever caught and had it full. In my area, most swarms issued will end up in a medium from the start when I transfer as they are all with in a pound or two of each other.
I also fit 11 frames in my boxes, I make my own frames.
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I do have one more piece of advice from experience to offer. I put the frames tight against each other and use some method to keep them from swaying when moving the traps. I do this several ways depending on what I have to work with. Some times it is four screws tight up against the edges of the outside frame crunching them together. Other time is is shooting a brad though the frame lips of the outside frames. Whatever keeps them from moving when I move the bees. New comb is very fragile and the frames swaying into each other kills bees when moving. I put mine in rough places sometime but even on the highway you make corners, use gas or brakes etc. I have moved bees with out this and ended up with all the new comb on the bottom of the trap when I did not do this. They usually survived it but why do it. Plus, might kill a queen. I also move at or real close to dark so that I have a good chance that if a virgin was on a mating flight, she would be home.
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I also have lowered my swarm boxes every year. It seemed the hassle of ladders, etc were more an aggravation, trying to balance heavy occupied boxes down from a tree. Now I hang them only as high as I can reach.
I used lemon grass oil in the same manner as Jim does.
I use one leftover frame of comb to immediately give the queen a place to lay, and the rest of the frames are foundationless.
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I hope I'm so lucky. I'll get that out in the next day or two so when the swarm swarms, I'll bee ready.
You might like this Terri. Jefff is friends with JP and Schawee. (Members here). They sometimes do videos together.
"Swarm trap success: 3 out of 6 traps have bees in them already."
Jeff Horchoff Bees
143K subscribers
https://youtu.be/OZUiHstirFs?si=SypjIV4GbW8ml_be
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New comb is very fragile and the frames swaying into each other kills bees when moving.
I have moved bees with out this and ended up with all the new comb on the bottom of the trap when I did not do this.
Good point and just another advantage of placing frames with foundation in our swarm traps IMHO.
Phillip
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ben
Good point and just another advantage of placing frames with foundation in our swarm traps IMHO.
I got no proof beyond others written opinions but still say foundation makes the space seem smaller to a bee and makes it harder for them to measure the space. Most advice out there is foundationless except for a frame or two of brood comb but I have no doubt bees might move anywhere once.
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This showed up on Reddit, I think Imma give it a try. Did I read that tulip poplar is popular with the bees? I have a yuuuuge one of those in my front yard and I could raise the bucket with a rope over a branch.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Beekeeping/comments/1azmnw4/caught_my_first_swarm/
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ben
Good point and just another advantage of placing frames with foundation in our swarm traps IMHO.
I got no proof beyond others written opinions but still say foundation makes the space seem smaller to a bee and makes it harder for them to measure the space. Most advice out there is foundationless except for a frame or two of brood comb but I have no doubt bees might move anywhere once.
Robos' method might me a good consideration and compromise for those who do not have confidence in the bees 'agreeing' about enough bee space when adding foundation to their frames in a swarm box; (considering the fear of failing new white comb).. :cheesy: :wink:
I run 4 foundationless frames with wires and 1 drawn brood comb. I leave them at least a week to settle before I move them. This gives them time to draw comb down to the wires and for the queen to start laying.
https://youtu.be/92EgotwfZCA
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ben
I will just say. I have never had a problem with new comb if I kept the frames from swaying.
Not really pertinent to this thread, but I have had a problem that many don't have by leaving the bees in instead of moving them quickly and that is that I run all medium and my traps are deep and comb below the frame makes transfer harder and can involve rubber bands. :oops:
However, the reason I try and move them same day is something I heard about swarms being in search mode for a home for three or so days and if you move them then, they think they picked the spot and seem to stay plus just cause they are hanging out in a box, it does not mean they are not still arguing about the best place to live. The way robo does it kinda guarantees they are in the box and staying if they are bringing in pollen. I admit to being fooled once or twice and bringing home traps that ended up being empty.
I have not had swarms leave after I hive them. This part is not really advice but just discussion and my thinking on the matter. More then one way to skin a cat and such. Since I just put a trap back where I take one with bees in it, I try and save driving. Traps are not as free as it seems if they are spread out a bit and they should be. Putting a bunch with in a half mile of each other seems a waste of resources. Getting help from friends and relatives is a god send and a phone call saves lot of gas rather then personally checking everything.
I try and keep the bees as free as possible and am lazy to boot.
I do say this, before I would put up a deep and a medium together, I would split them and have one excellent trap and one mediocre trap and would spread them a mile plus apart and feel I had increased my odds by doing so.
Ps On robos method, if the frames are swinging and they have comb, it could smash as many bees or more bees then if it fell. Bet he doesn't let them swing. I would personally rather move bees with little or no comb then have a lot banging against each other.
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Good post. Thanks gww
I suppose the wire he places in the middle of his open frames, which the bees intertwine with their comb makes the difference .
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I once heard that if you ask three different beeks the same question, you'd get four different answers. :cool:
If I was a bee looking for a new home, an empty box with some existing comb and place to make more overhead would bee what I'd bee looking for. So...that's what I'm giving them. :cool:
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I once heard that if you ask three different beeks the same question, you'd get four different answers. :cool:
I was thinking this reading through this thread. I said to my sister, "Poor Terri, I bet this whole conversation isn't really helping him much." :grin: I don't put up swarm traps, so I (mercifully for you :cheesy: ) don't have anything to add, but something I take away from this thread is that a lot of different things will work, and it kind of depends on what the bees in your area are looking for. For example, I'd imagine that bees in a northern climate are looking for a smaller cavity, because they don't want to have to heat a big one over the winter, but bees in a southern climate probably aren't as concerned with a cavity being too large.
If I was a bee looking for a new home, an empty box with some existing comb and place to make more overhead would bee what I'd bee looking for. So...that's what I'm giving them. :cool:
Go for it. Experiment and see what works for you, because clearly there is more than one way to skin this cat, as gww said. :happy:
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There ya go Terri, as member said try it out, if it works do it again, if it works the next time your probably tracking. If it dosnt work, then dosnt work again try something different. I like the attitude. Wish more people had it.
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On lemongrass oil...I see plenty of it on fleabay where they tout it as medicinal of some sort. Is there anything special about the stuff used to attract a swarm? And according to Mrs. Terri Yaki, we have two lemongrass plants around our patio. Can I use that some way?
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I have heard, but can't verify, that some varieties are better. All the ones I've tried work fine.
Lemon Grass essential oil = Essential oil used for swarm lure. Lemongrass oil contains all of the compounds known to affect the behavior of the bees and all but one of the compounds of Nasonov pheromone.
Lemongrass oil major components:
geraniol (isomer of nerol)
nerolic acid (isomer of geranic acid)
(E)-citral (geranial)
(Z)-citral (neral)
geranic acid (isomer of nerolic acid)
farnesol
https://bushfarms.com/beesterms.htm#l
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And according to Mrs. Terri Yaki, we have two lemongrass plants around our patio. Can I use that some way?
You could try tincturing it in alcohol, but it would be weaker than the essential oil, and it would probably evaporate faster. I made some lemongrass tincture from ours for medicinal use, although I haven't had occasion to use any yet. It's antispasmodic and antiseptic.
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My section 8 housing is up and properly baited, now I must pray to the swarm gods. I'm seriously thinking about placing a bucket trap like the one I posted and see if I can snag one that way too. It should look good hanging out in my front yard like that, right next to my ham radio antenna. :cool: Seeing as it's 35 and raining right now I don't think there's any rush on that though.
I also might have a good place to park my hives. I think that the place I had in mind is too close to my burn pile and I really don't have another place to put my burn pile. Out by the garage there's a concrete knee wall that I can use. I can drill and place anchors to strap them down. If I place them facing west, they'll overlook the concrete pad and to the east, it's grass. Which sounds best? Actually, I could place them facing any direction I wanted.
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People usually say face them east for the AM sun. I have had them faced every way and I think whatever works for you will be fine.
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People usually say face them east for the AM sun. I have had them faced every way and I think whatever works for you will be fine.
Thanks. I hear that a lot and it makes me wonder...The hives aren't big enough for which way they face to matter. They get cooked the same no matter which way they point. I'm thinking that it's more important to get morning sun as early as possible. They'll be dumping all their trash on a big concrete pad if I face them west. I don't know if I like that idea or not. I've heard that it would interesting to see what happens out front of the hive with them facing the concrete. Maybe face one each direction for a science project.
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Just be sure whichever way you face them that you position them so you can easily get behind the hives. You are going to want to inspect them from the back or at least the side, so just think about that if you are planning on butting them up against a wall.
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I would definitely want to use the cement as their dumping ground. It lets you see what is coming out of the hive. Grass usually hides small amounts of dead bees and drones. It also hides yellow jackets and other small predators.
Jim Altmiller
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Just be sure whichever way you face them that you position them so you can easily get behind the hives. You are going to want to inspect them from the back or at least the side, so just think about that if you are planning on butting them up against a wall.
Thanks, I will make sure I have four sided access. If things get heavy, my neighbor and I and can tag team them. And I haven't forgotten about that hive tool. I recently realized that I have a piece of 'kept' equipment that has what I think is thick enough steel on it to make some. Either way, I have that thin one that I cut out to lift the frames and can use something heavier to pry them apart.
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We're supposed to hit 66 F today so our local bees will be flying. I'll be out there looking for activity. I've heard plenty that spring is 'swarm season' but how early could we expect to see that happen? I don't think there's any flower activity yet so what will they all be doing?
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Terri,
Right now your bees are building up their numbers. Make sure they have plenty of food to feed their young. Feel how heavy they are. If they have lots of honey and pollen bread stored up, make sure they have a water source nearby. They need water to dilute honey.
Jim Altmiller
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I don't have any bees yet but I'll store this information for next year.
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I've heard plenty that spring is 'swarm season' but how early could we expect to see that happen? I don't think there's any flower activity yet so what will they all be doing?
I would guess it has something to do with where you live. They usually do some building up and have eggs in the hive before swarming. I have gone after swarms on a warmish day in the snow. I have observed the thunderstorms seemed to increase my swarm calls. Pressure changes?
Anyway, good luck with the bait hives!
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OK, I was talking to my neighbor who ends up wit a lot of swarms on his apple trees and he's making it sound like I'm out too early and has warned me about wax moths moving in before I get a swarm. He's suggesting more like May. Can I just plug the entrance hole or do I need to pull the comb out and put it in a safe spot?
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You seem to be about or a little warmer then me in the 5b growing zone. The earliest I have ever had one of my hives swarm was on april 11 after a warm feb like it seems like we are having now. I am expecting it to be early this year just by how it is now. I really don't think honey comb draws that well and that good black brood comb is best. I usually try and get mine baited about march first. I have never caught one that early but like it done and know I can throw another q-tip in it in a couple of weeks. I don't worry about wax moth as now or later, you end up in the same place. There might be somebody feeding like crazy around you and they may issue and early swam and so in my mind earlier is better. Plus then it is done and you don't get sidetracked. I catch most probably early june. I have had swarms move in boxes with mice nest in them and many times get wasp nest. In the end, if the trap isn't out, it won't catch and so I get them out early.
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What GWW said. X2
Jim Altmiller
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you can just come down here terri and get the ones out of my orange tree three have come and gone in the last two weeks. I boxed the first one this year cause I thought it was one of mine. Sadly or luckily (which ever way you want to look at it) it wasnt.
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Thanks for the offer, Bill. If I was coming to beefest, I might have taken you up on that.
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Is there a time when I should freshen a lemongrass oil treatment?
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I have been told by a man that catches a hundred or more swarmes a year and sells lots of them, he refreshes lemon grass oil every 7-10 days.
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I have been told by a man that catches a hundred or more swarmes a year and sells lots of them, he refreshes lemon grass oil every 7-10 days.
Wow! Glad I asked. Thanks. I sniffed at it after a rain and couldn't smell anything but I don't have any idea how my nose compares with theirs.
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Bees' sense of smell is about 100x stronger than yours.
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I bought some .2ml pipettes to use for lure. Filled the bulb about half full, so approximately .1ml in the pipette which I hung in the trap on the wall. Used a couple pultry netting staples tacked into the wall as a place to hang the pipette. The pipettes don't drip out (I tested) so it'll be interesting to see how long the pipette holds the lemongrass oil. I intended to put in a second pipette with queen pheromone but forgot before setting the trap up so my first will do without. I'll keep y'all updated on how long the pipettes last
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Occam,
I recommend that you put the pipette in a plastic bag and seal it up completely. That way the lemongrass smell is not too strong and it will last a long time.
Jim Altmiller
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Thanks Jim, appreciate that
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The first trap I hung and baited in my parents backyard had plenty of bee smelling stuff in there... melted down moth infested beeswax slathered over the interior. Propolis warmed to stickiness and rubbed around. Pippette with a small amount of lemon grass oil. Box had bees all over it the next day Match 11th and has had consistent bee activity every day with good weather. About 12:30 today the bees decided to move in. I got the call from my parents "there are so many bees flying everywhere, thousands!" haha. I told them to enjoy the show while they ate their lunch. My dad decided to get close to get some pictures and video.
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The first trap I hung and baited in my parents backyard had plenty of bee smelling stuff in there... melted down moth infested beeswax slathered over the interior. Propolis warmed to stickiness and rubbed around. Pippette with a small amount of lemon grass oil. Box had bees all over it the next day Match 11th and has had consistent bee activity every day with good weather. About 12:30 today the bees decided to move in. I got the call from my parents "there are so many bees flying everywhere, thousands!" haha. I told them to enjoy the show while they ate their lunch. My dad decided to get close to get some pictures and video.
Great preparation and awesome catch! Congratulation on your earned success!!!
Phillip
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Gongrats, Occam, hope they treat you well.
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I'm reading local posts that this weekend should start the swarm season here so I'm thinking I should refresh my lemongrass attractant and I'm also thinking of placing popsicle sticks in the tops of the medium frames in the bottom box of the trap. Does this sound like a plausible plan?
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Have you noticed scout bees visiting your traps?
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Have you noticed scout bees visiting your traps?
No, nothing is venturing far from their hives just yet but we have a rainy week here and a warmup coming this weekend.
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I do have a bee cam out there. :cool:
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In my experience I have noticed 'every time' I catch a swarm, the scout bees will be readily seen investigating the trap box ahead of time. The closer to to the time of the swarm the more bees will be seen coming to and fro, in and out if the trap. I have seen trap boxes so busy that I have mistakenly assumed they were already there!
Naturally with extreme weather where flying is out of the question you will not see scout bees visiting. But at the same time, I have also noticed after the bees have been cooped up for days on end because of bad weather during swarm season, they will waste not time swarming when the rain stops. Good luck Terri, I know you are excited! I hope you catch a BIG swarm!!
Phillip
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I have been told by a man that catches a hundred or more swarmes a year and sells lots of them, he refreshes lemon grass oil every 7-10 days.
Now that's a busy man! Thanks Pause, catching that many swarms makes me wonder, "what is his strategy"?
Phillip
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Swarm trap is seeing some light action this afternoon. I have a camera on it and they are triggering the motion activation. I'd say about six bees went in and I didn't see any come out.
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Very seldom do I see bees around a trap except in rare occasions where they seem to be getting water or some mineral out of the wood the trap is made of, if they are there they are looking for lodgings. Doesn't mean they always end up picking mine. If they are looking hard, most times you see some flying around the outside as if measuring the box. This is usually true if you did not put honey or something in there. I always get excited if I see bees around a trap as they are not interested anything in a normal trap except when looking for lodgings in my opinion.
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And my swarm trap is somewhat active again today. They started at about 10:45 this morning and came in intermittently. At one point there were several at one time but for the most part, they were soloing it. It looks like they cruise around the hive for a minute or so, then go inside. At this point, there must be 12 to 15 of them in there, maybe a few more than that. I've only seen one or two come back out so what are they doing in there? One started to enter but backed out and left rather quickly, would they have guards set up in there already? Are they going to muster in there then go back in a crowd and bring the others back with them? And one came in at warp speed and went right in like she owned the place. I'm thinking that she might have been one that left and then came back. All of this is caught on my bee cam, I'm staying clear of them for now.
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I hardly ever stay clear. I usually sit a chair up and watch them for hours. I have had two come in at exactly 2 while watching them and it is kind of neat to be in the middle of them. Some times they come in little waves and one time when I watched, the activity slowed down and then boom every body showed up. Don't get me wrong, I have wasted time and they went somewhere else as well. Had one show up at about nine once and my brother in law saw one come in about 5 but my bet is always on 2. This being the second day, who knows but still a good sign. I don't understand the bees not coming back out but if a swarm moved in, it would be a whole lot of coming and going. They do go in and measure by walking the hive off but they have to leave to tell their friends. Since I don't wait for pollen before moving, I can sometimes tell they are in for sure by being their close to dark and you will see bees coming in but not many leaving and that is usually enough for me. Good luck. I will say a camera is nice but not nearly as exciting as being in the middle of thousands of bees flying in.
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The alert on the camera keeps me apprised of the situation. Most every time it dings, it's an inbound bee and once in a while, it's my cat off to the side. If I see big activity, I'm heading out there. In the meantime, I get some videos of them mostly coming. I understand what you are saying and why I don't see them leaving is a mystery to me. I expected a lone scout or two followed by larger numbers. For a minute, the several at once looked promising but that was the apex of the activity.
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Terri,
When they are checking out your trap, watch the way they act and how many are visiting. I have seen bees dancing on the entrance half an hour before they started moving in. The scouts all have to agree to go to your trap before they move. That means every scout has visited your hive. So you should see a whole lot of bees visiting your trap before they move in. They are also marking the entrance with their nazinoff glands, smells just like lemongrass oil.
Jim Altmiller
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One of them did hang out on the porch for a bit and I was wondering if she was marking it. I'll see if I can find that video and study it.
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Found it and got in on youtube. Is she marking the deck?
https://youtu.be/xiF6EJlNyzk
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There was a bit of activity out there around 10:30 this morning and now nothing and I don't see any coming out, only going in. Could they be in there reworking the comb in the frames and cleaning up? So far, I've resisted the urge to look inside.
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I don't have personal experience with swarm traps, but I doubt it. I'm under the impression that scouts only inspect, they don't do any sort of prep work or anything.
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I opened it up and looked inside and nobody's home. I don't know how much lemongrass oil to use but I spread a couple more drops around on the porch. Already, another bee buzzed past. I don't think she went in though.
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I never put more than four drops of lemongrass oil inside. I put double that around the entrance on the outside.
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I never put more than four drops of lemongrass oil inside. I put double that around the entrance on the outside.
Thanks, I am relieved that I did not OD the joint. I was only using a drop or two outside and the cue tip with some on it in a plastic bag inside. I could detect a faint smell of lemon when I opened the lid and added popsicle sticks to the empty frames. After I added two more drops yesterday, I had two more visitors around 5:30. I thought it was kind of late for them to be there but they were. I wonder how far they can smell that stuff.
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A very long way depending on wind direction, speed and temperature.
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You can tell it is swarm season when you are driving down the road and your windshield is covered by bees. Drove right thru a swarm crossing the road. I have not heard of that before.
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Nor have I. It is here it appears.
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I have driven through swarms before. I've also walked through them. Not in a beeyard or, as far as I knew, near one, I've seen a swarm just fly through. Completely took me by surprise. I'm not so surprised when it happens in my yard.
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Back in the eighties, I had a swarm fly over me and my family in California. My son was on my back so I dropped down low and we watched them. Pretty neat.
About five years ago I was called to remove a swarm. Had trouble finding it. Within minutes of finding it , they took off. I walked within the swarm for almost 2000?. If you ever get the chance, do it, it is really cool.
Jim Altmiller
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Having read these good posts, I reconfigured my two bait hives this morning.
I had them all full of drawn comb: a deep and medium - both full of frames from dead-outs - of which I had plenty after a disastrous last year.
Doped them up for swarms to move in but no takers so far.
This morning I took all the frames out of both hives. Started over with a mixture of drawn, new cell rite, starter strips, and old frames. Must have had frames and boxes of them strewn out everywhere!
Put an empty deep on the bottom to make the scouts happy in their quest for 40 liters.
From the medium over it I went two ways.
In one, I hung 2 deep drawn frames on the outsides. Then there are medium-depth frames: 2 drawn in the middle, 2 starter strips outside of that, 2 cell rite blanks, and 2 old.
In the other, there are 2 deep drawn frames in the middle and the mix of medium-depth frames toward the outside.
Re-dosed with Lemongrass oil.
I plan to check frequently.
Changes made:
Got up this morning with one of those "duh" moments.
Why intrude on the deep hive body space with deep frames hanging down into it from the medium super above?
So, pulled the deep frames and put in all medium frames in the medium super, leaving the deep hive body empty.
If it catches a swarm you can just fill the deep with frames and they'll eventually move into it.
If I were a bee, I'd want to swarm right in there!
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I plan to check frequently.
If you have your trap within WIFI range, I'd get a camera set up so you don't have to check and won't miss any action. Mine lets me know anytime a bee comes onto the scene (which hasn't happened today) and I can open up the app and watch without having to run out there. I got it tuned pretty good now and am not getting any false alarms. Just bees and cats.
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Ha, and just like that, I got a visitor. First one of the day.
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Ha, and just like that, I got a visitor. First one of the day.
Cool!
Mine are too far away for WiFi.
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Changed my bait hives this morning; see modified post above.
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My swarm trap saw a good bit of action yesterday and there is some interesting activity at it this morning. One bee in particular is acting like she owns the place and seems to be guarding the door (I have the small entrance opening on it). She's going in and out the door, circling some and looks like she's spreading a pheromone. Now she took off.
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My swarm trap is teeming with activity here this afternoon. Hopefully, this is move-in day. It's pretty warm out, I'd guess high 70s with a light breeze. Bees seem to be coming in waves of 12 or so and going in, some come back out but it looks like a lot are staying inside. Maybe it's wishful thinking. Either way, activity is pretty much non-stop right now and I set up my GoPro to document it just in case.
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Does anyone know what it means when two, three or four of them go 'round and 'round in circles, face to face on the porch?
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Are they fighting? Are they locked together and spinning?
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Are they fighting? Are they locked together and spinning?
I would say not. It?s happened quite a few times. They come out of hive and do that then go back in or fly off. I have video of it and it put it on YouTube later.
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I?m just hoping that it?s not my neighbors laying workers.
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I?m just hoping that it?s not my neighbors laying workers.
:cheesy: Don't worry, I sincerely doubt it's that. I'm under the impression that laying workers act more like queens and don't leave the nest. And even if they do continue foraging activity, I don't know why they'd be looking for a place to live. Also, normal bees not allowing in laying workers is nothing to be concerned about. When you do a shakeout, that is your goal.
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Closest thing I can think of of bees facing each other is at the swarm when dancing is going on and they don't like a location some bee is dancing for they will head butt the dancer. I had similar at one of my traps today. Just a few messing around the entrance.
We just had a rain and they might be sucking something out of the wood but my view is they are looking maybe for later and I hope they like it and bring their buddies. I have seen it a few times when they did did not or were not interested in a new home but mostly no bees unless looking. Mostly but there are rare occasions. If they are doing at more then just the entrance and flying around the trap, odds are good unless they choose some other site. Good luck.
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OK, the video is up. This is not the best depiction of the 'dance' but you should get the gist of it. This hive saw heavy action all day with the first one at 1000 but the heavy action didn't start until 1100.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5MXwvElrcU
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Hm, that's funny. I honestly don't think I would have pegged that behavior as anything specific. It may just be workers antennating each other.
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And the swarm trap is getting hit hot and heavy already this morning. It seems like at least a couple of bees stayed the night and I have found them wandering around the frames in the upper box where the frames have foundation smeared with slum-gum. There is about a 10" long 1/16" or so wide gap between the two boxes in the front and quite a few of them are looking at that. I expect that they could seal it up easy enough but might it make them want to find a different home? Should I heat up some wax and fill it in? In the future, I'll check for that and fill it first.
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An extra entrance is not a problem. It may be a plus.
Na
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An extra entrance is not a problem. It may be a plus.
Na
It's not big enough to be an entrance but thanks for that, I feel better about it now.
BTW, I'm going to pull the syrup off of my nuc and add it to my swarm trap. That should entice them a little.
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And just like that, my activity has ceased, I guess that means they found a place they like better.
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Ah well, better luck next time.
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Big mistake to put food in a trap as you will have robbers and not home makers.
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Big mistake to put food in a trap as you will have robbers and not home makers.
I would be concerned about this as well. That is also basically just setting up an open feeder, and you are going to waste a lot of syrup feeding everyone's bees within 3 miles of you. Plus, you will be lacing their honey with syrup if you guys have a flow on already.
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Big mistake to put food in a trap as you will have robbers and not home makers.
Thanks for the tip, I?ll take it back out. Especially since I don?t have any ?migrants?.
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And just like that, my scouts are back. :shocked:
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So...what are these things doing? They were around hot and heavy yesterday morning and suddenly, they were gone. Then, this evening, the gang showed back up. I suspect it's the same crew because they didn't come in a few at first, they all showed up at once and checked everything out, over and over again. I did cut a notch in the inner cover and they found that and prefer it over the entrance on the porch. I sealed up that seam with wax so they weren't inspecting that any more and I got wax all down the front of the hive. They were sniffing at that too. As the sun went down and it started to cool, they all went inside. I got up close before coming in and they came out both entrances to let me know they are there. Is this typical? I set the alert on the camera so when they start up in the morning, I'll hear about it.
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And at 0730, we have a good amount of activity at the swarm trap. Keeping my fingers crossed for a winner today.
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I'm still having pretty good activity out there. It's like a mini hive moved in or something. Maybe it's a drone's club. :cheesy:
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Obviously, I'm a newbee but from all the reading I've done, this kind of puzzles me. My migrants spent the night, got up pretty early and flew around and then all got quiet. I don't know if they were hanging out inside or what but there are flyers out there now still flying around.
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I don't have any experience here, but I would think it's possible they were investigating the trap, and it got late in the evening so they just spent the night. Bees sometimes get caught out late on flowers too and will just hunker down until it warms up in the morning.
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If there are flyers there is still hope. I have a couple of places where I do have more then one trap (Which is a bit of a waste) and I will see the bees looking at all of them and many times end up picking just one.
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Empty hive bodies and swarm traps near your colony or the neighbors will always attract some attention, typically foragers looking for resources. Move the trap a mile away or more to catch a swarm.
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There is a good chance that the hive hasn?t swarmed yet but the scouts really like your swarm trap and keep telling the other scouts about it. You still have a good chance of catching them. Watch which way the bees are coming and going to see if it is your bees or another hive.
Jim Altmiller
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I was wondering if it was my own bees too. I've been trying but I'm not having any luck seeing which way they're coming from.
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Terri I?ll not try to encourage or discourage you. A few seasons back Father Michael was trying intently to catch a swarm and was very disappointed that his own hive swarmed and went another direction. Father Michale, is my memory correct?
I agree with >almost every thing .Beesnweeds post.< His advise is well worth listening too. Even still I think you have a chance! Keep us updated, and thanks for sharing your experiences!
Phillip
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Not to be disagree with Beesnweeds post but I like a trap around my hives for a couple of reasons. I have one in my back yard and I do not see bees looking for resource very often but when I do see a bee around it, the first thing I do is walk down to my hives and look in the trees. I have hived at least three of my own before they even picked a home using this. There are studies that say most bees move away from their home hive a ways on average.
I have a theory though that hives from others like to come to where there are already hives. I had two dead outs filled this way last year. Most times except rare occasions of one or two bees, if I see bees at a trap, somebody is looking for a home. Bees most time if you don't put something sweet in the trap could care less about but get very interested when looking for a home. I do know that my swarms from my hives will look at a close trap and I have never given them a chance to move in cause I find them and shake them but it is the looking at the trap that tips me off to do that. The ones that leave a hive very seldom go very far when they first come out. Mine all land in two cedars that are the closest thing. Some people set up a Russian scion based on this fact and old early bee books advised setting up fake branches if nothing was close.
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I obviously have no experience of my own to run with but I do have my thoughts. 1) Swarms have landed on my neighbor?s apple trees multiple times so I do have other bees around that are looking for homes 2) my trap is about 1/2 mile from the hives right down the road and 3) it?s over a mile from the hives in the other direction and those are just the hives that I know about. I suspect that at least some of those swarms have come from that closest apiary.
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Terri,
I keep swarm traps near my apiary, especially very large swarm traps. I usually catch very large swarms and have watched and videoed several of them come in from afar. This year I did catch a swarm from my largest hive.
Keep trying.
Jim Altmiller
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Terri,
Here is a picture of a swarm that moved into a stack of 5 empty medium supers that I put one old drawn frame in with 9 foundation less for frames. I took the hive apart 10 days after they moved in. The 10 frames were fully and perfectly drawn and the cross comb was at least 12 inches deep. I cut the comb and put them in medium frames with rubber bands holding them in place. Three pieces of comb were already cut out.
Jim Altmiller
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It?s hit or miss. Beesnweeds is right but so are you all. My point is, don?t be disappointed Terri if they decide otherwise. Father Michael posted regularly about his optimism of catching his own swarm via the swarm trap method. He was disappointed. After all the high hopes his swarm from his hive, went another direction. I hope you are successful in your perseverance .
Gww, I left a dead out in place just for this specific reason. Just this week I had a swarm enter. It?s good to have a trap close but it?s good to have some far away as well, for those who are serious about seeking swarm catches with swarm traps. In that I agree with beesnweeds also. Jeff Horcroff, a serious bee trapper, has traps as far as 40 miles from his place.
For the serious bee trapper; as I have mentioned before, a location where a cutout has been done is the ideal place for swarm traps in my opinion. Good luck! I am rooting for you!
Phillip
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Not to be disagree with Beesnweeds post but I like a trap around my hives for a couple of reasons. I have one in my back yard and I do not see bees looking for resource very often but when I do see a bee around it, the first thing I do is walk down to my hives and look in the trees. I have hived at least three of my own before they even picked a home using this.
Been there, done that. At least 5 of mine were caught that way this year. The only difference is I have a stack of empty boxes that are getting ready to be put on hives instead of a swarm trap.
Trapping swarms is like fishing, the more hooks in the water the more chances to catch one. But there are days that the fish aren't biting no matter what you do.
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Terri I?ll not try to encourage or discourage you. A few seasons back Father Michael was trying intently to catch a swarm and was very disappointed that his own hive swarmed and went another direction. Father Michale, is my memory correct?
I agree with >almost every thing .Beesnweeds post.< His advise is well worth listening too. Even still I think you have a chance! Keep us updated, and thanks for sharing your experiences!
Phillip
Yes, I had several bait hives out but two swarms turned them down.
I caught the third swarm in a pillow case because they landed on a low branch of my neighbor's Redbud tree.
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Swarming is a two step process. First the swarm bivouacs and second moves to the new location. There's nothing wrong with keeping a swarm trap in your yard but a russian scion is even better because you're missing the first step with a trap. Or at least double the chances of catching the swarm before they move on. You can catch them easier on a scion attached to a rope and lower them to a hive body. Im not perfect but can head off most swarms before they happen. When I see a monster swarm with a great queen in a tree I failed. Best practices are the responsible thing to do so your bees dont become someone else's problem. Ive spent a lot of time rearing great queens and bees, I dont want some guy down the road killing them because they are going into his attic, barn, or siding.
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Swarming is a two step process. First the swarm bivouacs and second moves to the new location. There's nothing wrong with keeping a swarm trap in your yard but a russian scion is even better because you're missing the first step with a trap. Or at least double the chances of catching the swarm before they move on. You can catch them easier on a scion attached to a rope and lower them to a hive body. Im not perfect but can head off most swarms before they happen. When I see a monster swarm with a great queen in a tree I failed. Best practices are the responsible thing to do so your bees dont become someone else's problem. Ive spent a lot of time rearing great queens and bees, I dont want some guy down the road killing them because they are going into his attic, barn, or siding.
Wish I had known about this before now. Thanks for the great tip!
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I put a russian scion out yesterday so I'll see what that does. I didn't get too fancy with it, just a board with wax and lemongrass oil on it. I have a camera on it too so I don't have to go out there to check on it.
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Been considering adding a game camera to my bee yard to see what kind of animal chews on my hives. Now I have another reason to add one - the Russian scion strategy.
The solar cellular cameras don't cost that much, plus $20 a month for the T-mobile cellular service.
Considering how much I have lost in swarms and paying for nucs and trips to San Antonio ...
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Now there's about three times as many bees checking out the trap as any other time they were out there. It's like Alfred Hitchcock's 'The Birds', except it's bees. They hit it hard about 1300 and haven't let up. I don't think they moved in as of yet but it almost looks like it the way they're going in and out. I have my fingers crossed.
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Sounds a bit like ?the watched pot never boils? syndrome. If you want away on holidays for a period of time, you could almost guarantee a swarm would move in during your absence.
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There could be some merit to that!
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Terri,
Sounds like you are about to bee the proud owner of a new hive. 😊
Jim Altmiller
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Now there's about three times as many bees checking out the trap as any other time they were out there. It's like Alfred Hitchcock's 'The Birds', except it's bees. They hit it hard about 1300 and haven't let up. I don't think they moved in as of yet but it almost looks like it the way they're going in and out. I have my fingers crossed.
Now thats more like it and what I meant in reply #59. Thumbs Up!! Good Luck..
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Thanks folks. They either left or hunkered down deep inside the hive for the night. We'll see what tomorrow brings.
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When I see a monster swarm with a great queen in a tree I failed.
Thank you beesnweeds if everyone understood this statement they would; have stronger hives, make more honey, and have in general helthier hives of bees.
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And so far today, activity is light again. There was a post on NextDoor here recently that someone scored a swarm with a marked queen in it.
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I plan to check frequently.
If you have your trap within WIFI range, I'd get a camera set up so you don't have to check and won't miss any action. Mine lets me know anytime a bee comes onto the scene (which hasn't happened today) and I can open up the app and watch without having to run out there. I got it tuned pretty good now and am not getting any false alarms. Just bees and cats.
Thanks for the suggestion. I just ordered a cellular game trail camera. It will be connected to my T-mobile iPhone. Moultrie has a turn-key camera and cellular service. Ordered the lithium battery version instead of the solar powered one because with the battery I can move it around, strap it to tree trunks or fence posts, and keep it better hidden - on a post in the open is too obvious.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CQDFKBDS/?coliid=IZ8FMFYILJ3T8&colid=26FGO2OFAJU8J&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it
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I don't know if they are in or if I have the energy today to go back near dark to find out. Pulled a radiator out of a kabota today and I am beat. I posted though because of the double entrance stuff earlier in this thread. Clearly in the picture this trap has a double entrance and some have lots of holes due to using scrap and leaving out for years at a time. They may be in as something is dragging out the mouse nest that must have been in there. No matter the case, as I have mentioned many time in this thread. If I see bees at my traps, I am extremely hopeful cause they could care less about my traps except when looking for a home (almost always).
I know you can only see a few bees in the picture but I don't take picture taking too seriously as to do better, it is harder. Quite a few around, just not in the picture.
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Good luck gww!
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And my swarm trap is hot today. They started about 0800, took a break from 1315 to 1515 and came back. It's not as active as it was the last time. I hope they're not just teasing me again.
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Good luck. Maybe a bee keeper is finding his hive swarmed and hiving them before they move. Sill bees looking is a great sign and I would not bet against them making the move. Mine turned out a little bigger then was in my mind but not the biggest I have caught but about normal. Again, good luck. It is exciting and they are not just looking for no reason.
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Thanks, I feel like they're just taunting me. :cheesy:
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I feel like they're just taunting me.
They are your own bees or a neighbors that you see checking out the trap weekly. You need to move the trap some distance away from your hive to increase the chances of catching a swarm. When a colony swarms it will cluster on a fence, branch, etc. Then scouts will look for a new location, when the swarm decides on a new location its typically a few minutes to a few hours. Rarely do they stick around for more than a day or two. The bees checking out your trap are not scouts or the swarm would have moved in the same day. It's very unlikely that so many swarms are looking at your trap in your area. There or only so many colonies near you, maybe a few unless you live near a beekeeper who keeps a lot of hives.
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That is not necessarily my experience. I have traps spread out in a 30 mile radius including at my hives. The places I have two or more, they will check most before picking someplace to go. Sometimes I catch by my hives and sometime in other traps. I don't catch many with 15 traps but also don't see bees looking to often except when I am convinced there is some kind of swarm activity going on. If there is nothing sweet in the hive and lemon grass oil, they don't care 90 percent of the time about the trap unless there is a swarm some where or one getting ready to swarm. It is easy to see if it is my bees by looking at landing places around my bees if I see activity at a trap close.
I have traps in town and in some pretty remote areas. It is pretty hard to know what is around you and where and your odds are just as good near your hives as not with the added benefit that if it is your hives, you can walk down and look and just shake them in a box. To me this would be the only way to tell if it was your bees and if so then yes, if they can find something as good a thousand yards away, they may pick that. But it is somebody's bees or a hive in a tree or attic if your bees are not swarming.
The key is they are looking at more then just your trap and may find something. There is no way to say that a mile from you bees would be better then by your bees as far as swarms go. I do not discount if it is your bees, the inclination would be for them to put some distance from the mother hive but with only a few hives this is easy to counter. I contest that your bees check your trap weekly as I am convinced that unless you are putting food in your hive, the bees don't care if not looking to move and that means queen cells or the start of queen cells in your hives if it is your bees looking. I agree that every once in a while I will see one or two bees hanging around the entrance of a trap for some unknown reason but it happens so seldom that it is just a freak kind of thing or a heavy derth.
Just my honest opinion.
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I confess to being clueless and all I have is my observations and thoughts. I thought that bees all have a job to do and they are usually busy doing it. This trap has seen activity come and go, have none for a few days then get some again. I've had a crowd around it for the last two days now, starting in the morning and going all day long. I have no evidence that it is the same clan but I have none that it isn't either. I don't think that just hanging around an empty hive constitutes work if they don't have a goal in mind and there is no food or anything else in there to interest them. Today they had what looked like orientation flights and there was some dancing going on on the porch but I don't know what it means just yet. I'm going to guess that there are between one and two dozen bees out there but who knows how many are inside. I'm staying away from them for the most part but today, I did check to see if any were carrying any pollen and they are not. Some did stay overnight last night but again, I don't know how many.
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You might want to lift the top and look? Or put your ear to the side and see if you hear a low hum.
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Would my activity out there scare them off? I have the side windows that I can take off but I don?t want to scare them off.
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I wouldn't put more lemon grass oil on while they are still looking though I have before but just being around the trap or putting your ear to it won't matter. The bees could care less about you being there. I once had a swarm move in while ten feet away they were putting up a pup tent and there was lots of traffic and a big party going on. The people putting the tent up didn't even notice the bees moving in till I pointed it out to them. I have stood 6 inches from the entrance while they moved in. Remember, I told you I sit for hours watching them trying to catch them move in when I see activity. I don't think you can do too much to bother them though I used to be pretty scared of that till I had a few swarms move in while I watched. I am a smoker and so always thought that might bother they and I do watch the wind a little but don't quit smoking and they still come if what I have is what they want.
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OK, thanks. I opened the bottom box, which has empty frames in it and I can see, and there were a few bees in there and some came out when I opened the window. They either went back home for the night or moved up into the top box, which I can't see into without a ladder and some effort because when I checked at dusk, all activity had ceased. The bee cam is nice because it alerts me to activity and I can watch them live.
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It seems as though this small bunch of bees camped out in the swarm trap last night. At the crack of dawn, they were peeking out the front door and they are flying around the hive a little bit but my nuc hive is not doing much flying at all. We have a cool, rainy day here today.
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I opened the bottom box, which has empty frames in it
Thats the attractant. The plastic foundation is sprayed with rendered wax that has a potpourri of smells. Bees are like other animals, they can get confused with an overload of stimulants. If I leave my backyard lights on at night some bees will come up from my bee yard and bounce off the lights confused. It doesnt mean they are checking out the light as a good place to swarm to.
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Now that is an interesting thought.
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Here's an example of what's been going on for three days now. None of them are bringing in any pollen and there is nothing in the hive to eat or drink. First activity this morning was at about 0600, in spite of the light rain and 58 degree temps.
https://rumble.com/v4w0svb-swarm-trap-may-18-2024.html
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How many feet is the trap from your hive?
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About 80?
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Your bees are drifting to the trap. Move it to another location on your property (preferably further away) with the entrance pointed in a different direction than the hive.
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Does it matter if his bees are investigating the trap? Like, that won't prevent a swarm from choosing it, right?
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No it will not prevent a swarm from entering. Or will it? Lets consider.
Even if Terris' own bees are simply drifting, checking out the swarm box for curiosity alone, does not mean the effort is in vane. As Beemaster2 pointed out in an earlier post, of himself witnessing a swam come 'in' to his apiary from another location, (which were apparently not bees of his apiary).
Taking that into consideration, even if Terris' own bees do not choose to call the the prepared swarm box home, does not mean bees from another location will not either. Terri may get lucky enough to collect a swarm from a completely different source from somewhere else in his general area, that he may not know about himself? After all, it happened for Jim..... :grin:
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The bees are not investigating the trap, they are drifting to it. I dont know if it would deter a swarm, maybe? But in its current location its confusing a new beekeeper and a new hive. I know it's an unpopular observation on this thread but by the video and Terris posts Im fairly certain it's just his bees drifting.
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You are probably right about the drifting part. Naturally his own bees will check out the bait he has planted, and this has been on-going for Terri for at least 6 weeks. But he still may recover a swarm in this trap box as described in my last post. And it is 'not impossible' that his own bees will not choose it as well. As gww; Ive personally had it happen (though that was not my goal).
I for one, fully understand what you are saying beesnweeds to your point and credit. While Remembering the ongoing discussion, anticipation, and excitement of Father Michael a few years back when he was in almost the same spot as Terri. More than one of us tried to give him a heads up, in case they left, (which they did). I also remember the disappointment that he faced when they left the area, and the disappointment we felt for him.
The bees, more times than not, will leave in my experience. But we never know for sure what they will decide to do.
I also agree with you that it is better to save them the swarming experience by our good beekeeping methods.. (when possible)...
Phillip
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Terri have you found swarm cells in your hive?
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I for one, fully understand what you are saying beesnweeds to your point and credit.
Thank you.
You are probably right about the drifting part. Naturally his own bees will check out the bait he has planted
After the posts and video, you can see the bees hit the landing board and walk right in thinking it's the correct hive. Terri should at least give the trap a 180. I guess Im a bit surprised that no other experienced beekeepers on here see it.
While Remembering the ongoing discussion, anticipation, and excitement of Father Michael a few years back when he was in almost the same spot as Terri. More than one of us tried to give him a heads up, in case they left, (which they did). I also remember the disappointment that he faced when they left the area, and the disappointment we felt for him.
I also understand Father Michaels disappointment, but it's a learning experience and we both know beekeeping has a steep curve. I try and offer a different solution hoping he can increase his chances with a scion in his yard.
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Any advice I give is not a counter to any other given but more my perspective on trapping. I have no doubt that it can be done much better then I do it. From my perspective and value system. I am not putting traps higher then I can easily reach from the ground though studies seem to suggest 15 feet might be best.
I am not putting traps in places I will not naturally go cause it cost too much to travel to keep them baited and checked. I view substandard traps out better then no trap at all. I like deeps but will put a medium out if it is what I have with out building more. I like my traps where I go often or somebody else can see them daily and call me if there is activity.
In my area, swarms are not a sure thing and you could waste lots of recourses if you don't use what help you can get. I have 15 out and catch between 1 and 3 swarms a year and have never caught two in the same place in one year. I don't gather them up and store them but leave then out till a bottom or top rots off and then just replace that when needed.
No doubt people can trap better then me but my bees come as cheap as I have found a way to to do it and I like it better then making splits when you just want to get by but not expand.
I have read the best ways published by others that had study money to do it like they did it but like all things it depends on your goals. I do have a couple of traps on my own place that I have not baited or looked at in a few years cause I would have to get on a four wheeler to look at them and it is just easier to keep up with the one in my real back yard then in my woods and places I get to by car naturally. My advice is always based on what I like to do and not saying some point is wrong but more some points would not change my way cause it is good enough for me. Every one has to be the judge of what is best for them. I am just down right cheap and have found good enough for my need. My advice is given with good will but in no way some mandate as many are smarter then me and have excellent points being made by them.
Some of my bias might be that my very first bees came from my back yard before I even had bees. I live in the boonies but you just never know what might be around you.
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The bees are not investigating the trap, they are drifting to it. I dont know if it would deter a swarm, maybe? But in its current location its confusing a new beekeeper and a new hive. I know it's an unpopular observation on this thread but by the video and Terris posts Im fairly certain it's just his bees drifting.
I don?t feel like your thoughts are unpopular just unique among us and I do consider the possibility. I?d also like to see what happens if you are right but not at the expense of a swarm. I?m wondering if they will develop a laying worker if that is the case. All I saw during Thursday?s inspection were practice queen cells but I will stay on top of the hive and be on the lookout for the real McCoys.
If they are just my strays, why aren?t they bringing anything in? Are they just lazy workers hiding out? If nothing else, I think it?s interesting.
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I?m wondering if they will develop a laying worker if that is the case.
The bees in the swarm trap? A few bees can't draw comb and raise drone brood.
All I saw during Thursday?s inspection were practice queen cells but I will stay on top of the hive and be on the lookout for the real McCoys.
Im not sure what's going on in your hive but that would be a separate issue from workers drifting to the trap. Honestly, bees dont practice anything. They dont live long enough.
If they are just my strays, why aren?t they bringing anything in? Are they just lazy workers hiding out? If nothing else, I think it?s interesting.
They're not strays, they're bees from your hive drifting to the trap. Turn the entrance of the trap 180. They may be bringing in something you just can't see it like pollen. Bees aren't perfect, every foraging trip isn't successful.
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The bees in the swarm trap? A few bees can't draw comb and raise drone brood.
OK, that does make sense.
Im not sure what's going on in your hive but that would be a separate issue from workers drifting to the trap. Honestly, bees dont practice anything. They dont live long enough.
This is contrary to what I've heard more than once but I am open to learning just what is going on.
They're not strays, they're bees from your hive drifting to the trap. Turn the entrance of the trap 180. They may be bringing in something you just can't see it like pollen. Bees aren't perfect, every foraging trip isn't successful.
My hive is all bringing in orange pollen, which I believe is tulip poplar, hot and heavy but the swarm trap bees have nothing. There is a huge tulip poplar about 200' from my apiary and the state forest behind me is full of them as well. Even if only 1% had a successful trip, I would be able to see it.
Whatever is going on there is mysterious and interesting.
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Scout Bees don?t just drift in an empty resource-less hive without reason. Nor do scout bees bring in resources to a colony-less dwelling . They can be baited to the hive as you have done in hopes of swarm catching.
Scout bees from our own hives will check out abandoned hives. They are looking to take not give: or looking for a potential new home.
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Whatever is going on there is mysterious and interesting.
Certainly is, maybe it's a slow swarm and they will add bees little by little and then bring a queen over.
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The bees are not investigating the trap, they are drifting to it. I dont know if it would deter a swarm, maybe? But in its current location its confusing a new beekeeper and a new hive. I know it's an unpopular observation on this thread but by the video and Terris posts Im fairly certain it's just his bees drifting.
I don?t feel like your thoughts are unpopular just unique among us and I do consider the possibility.
Agreed. I think your opinion is raising some interesting questions, beesnweeds. We are all just trying to figure out what's going on here, and everyone's expertise is valuable. I don't have any experience with swarm traps really, so I'm learning a lot through the whole conversation.
80 ft. just seems far to drift to me, and I think Terri's comment about how most of his bees are bringing in pollen but these bees aren't is a interesting observation. I also feel like the amount of bees exhibiting this odd behavior is very small. How many scout bees do those of you
who put of swarm traps regularly typically see before a swarm moves in?
Im not sure what's going on in your hive but that would be a separate issue from workers drifting to the trap. Honestly, bees dont practice anything. They dont live long enough.
This is contrary to what I've heard more than once but I am open to learning just what is going on.
I think it depends on your definition of "practice". I think of queens cups more as preparation. The bees sometimes build them in case they needed them, and sometimes they end up using them and sometimes they don't. Orientation fights could also be considered "flying practice", but the purpose is really so the bees can memorize the area around the hive, not to practice flying in the sense that a baby bird does.
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Not to be disagree with Beesnweeds post but I like a trap around my hives for a couple of reasons. I have one in my back yard and I do not see bees looking for resource very often but when I do see a bee around it, the first thing I do is walk down to my hives and look in the trees. I have hived at least three of my own before they even picked a home using this.
Been there, done that. At least 5 of mine were caught that way this year. The only difference is I have a stack of empty boxes that are getting ready to be put on hives instead of a swarm trap.
Trapping swarms is like fishing, the more hooks in the water the more chances to catch one. But there are days that the fish aren't biting no matter what you do.
Well said Cao :wink: :cool:....
Since Terri reported of having 'no' queen cells, I highly doubt his own bees are 'swarm scouting' for a new home at this time. That does not mean other bees from another source, or other sources are not. Who knows it could be scout bees from far away from all we know... Fishing; I like that analysis Cao, it fits!
lol :wink: :grin:
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It could be that there was a swarm and it left somewhere while bees were scouting and those are lost bees coming to a place that got marked earlier. In this case, they probably eventually drift back to the hive they came from. There is no real way to know. I had a large bunch come to a trap and do the figure eight moves around the tree the trap was on only to fly back off to never be seen. I thought this is it but it was not. I have brought traps home as I was pretty sure only to find that they had really moved into a different trap which is a caution against wasting resources of several traps in one area as spreading them thinner and a mile apart would increase the odds in my opinion. My best guess when I see bees just coming and going in and not really measuring is they are taking something from the trap, I always thought minerals from the wood or such but mostly bees don't care about traps or lemon grass oil unless they are looking or maybe during a real derth at which times they will check me out also when just sitting on the back porch.
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I believe the mystery has been solved. I got 20 non-stop minutes of this.
And some of this.
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Hoo boy, that looks real! :happy:
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Hoo boy, that looks real! :happy:
I know! It was extra busy this morning when I gassed up my mower back there and when I got done mowing, about an hour and a half later, it was even busier and I was watching, hoping to see them swarm. Then I looked at the memory card on my camera and saw four, five minute videos of all bees inbound. So, while I was mowing, they were moving. I looked in the side ports and saw bees in there working. I can only see the outer frame on the top box but bees were there working on the outer frame. And the bottom box has empty frames with popsicle sticks glued in the top and coated with wax. They were working on those too.
Now, when should I move them to their permanent spot and should I feed them?
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Now, when should I move them to their permanent spot and should I feed them?
I'm not sure about when to move them, but swarms come with full bellies, and if they are drawing already, they should be good to go where food is concerned. Congratulations! :happy:
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Thanks, I'm pretty happy about it.
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Congratulation. I personally would wait to dark and then set the whole trap where I intend to move them permanently. I always do it as quick as possible cause it is my belief that when they wake up and if it is within the first few days of them moving, I think they think they picked the new spot and are more likely to stay. Some like to leave them till they get brood cause is is less likely that they will leave the babies. It will probably work out whatever you choose.
I like to get the trap back just in case there is an after swarm eight days from now. I have moved swarms just eighty feet and had some portion of the bees go back to the old trap sight but it worked out eventually. The reason for moving near dark is just incase a virgin is on a mating flight she will probably be in at that point. Once the trap wakes up at the place I am going to put it permanently I move the bees in to a hive if I can but know I can put it off a day or two as well.
I have never had a swarm leave but some people have. I used to put one or two drops of lemon grass oil on the floor of the hive I am putting them in but am inconsistent on that and it has never bit me. Some put a brood comb with brood in it from a different hive and that might be the best guarantee but I have only did that once and so far so good.
It is going to work, however you handle it or at least the odds are in you favor. The worst in my view is to let them get established and then try to move them as that gives the biggest chance for them to just return to the trap site rather then stay in the hive. It is the three mile rule where you can move them three feet or three miles and be ok but it is risky to move them 80 feet and expect them not to get lost. My vote is tonight cause then they may think it is their idea. If you move them tonight, maybe partially block the entrance with a little grass that they can move or put a little branch partially blocking the entrance so they kinda know something has changed though they will probably get it just from the shaking during the move. I would do this with a trap being moved just 80 feet or one I let get established even if moving three miles.
Good luck
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My vote is tonight cause then they may think it is their idea.
Good luck
Thanks. That's kind of what I was thinking but I am still learning. And here's a freeze frame from mid move. I'm pretty sure I got 'em.
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Just go out right before dark (maybe 45 min or hour) and watch them come in and if there is a line of returning bees, they are there. If some of the bees get confused and end up back at the trap site but most are at the hive, I have, if it was enough bees to even worry about, just let them go back into the trap and then take them back an either dump them on the landing board or tip the open trap against it to let the climb in. It is possible due to the distance but probably not probable.
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Your only mistake was mowing the lawn instead of standing by the trap while they come in cause that is an amazing thing to be in the middle of. Cameras capture better for others though.
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My trap is my hive. I'll see if I can scrounge up another one to put in its place. I think I can.
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And how bad should I block the front of this thing?
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Not bad and if grass, not packed so tight they can't move it. I sometimes just lean a little branch up against the front of the hive. I do what is easiest at the time.
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Got any junk boards around? The swarm will only need one medium for a month, put the other one back up as a trap.
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I have a screened bottom board that I bought and an extra top cover. I got it out there already and when I move the hive, I'll bait that with lemongrass oil.
The trap was a deep with 3 frames of comb and the rest new frames with plastic foundation. The bottom is a medium with empty frames and popsicle sticks glued into the top and painted with wax. It looked like they were working on the popsicle sticks when I looked in there. I was going to move it as it is and leave it as is unless I get info that I should change it.
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You don't need to change anything unless you want to use part of it for a trap.
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OK, I moved the hive. How's this look for sticks? It's actually lemongrass stalks.
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Aught to be fine in my opinion.
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OK, thanks for the help.
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I hope it works out and I believe it will.
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Good job Pilgrim. :wink: :grin: