Where has all the syrup gone? Bees eating as fast as I can feed?

[tjc1]

Due to the obvious lack of nectar coming into hive in my area, I started feeding my two hives at the beginning of September. Over the month, I gave each hive 30 lbs of sugar made into 2:1 which should be 30 lbs of syrup. Also, there must be SOME nectar coming in because I can smell the aroma of goldenrod coming from the hives. However, in that time, each hive has only increased in weight by about 10 lbs from then to now. I know that October tends to be a big month for honey consumption, but I am surprised by this situation... I don't want to feed any more so that they have time to evaporate the water out of what they have and get it capped before it gets cold here and it causes a moisture problem. Any thoughts? These are nominally Italians.

[gww]

tjc1
I am too new to say I am correct but I usually give them however much I am going to give them as fast as I can to bring the hive up to weight (though I don't weigh but just guess).  I figure if you slow feed like you are the bees just raise more brood.  If you fast feed, they fill comb dry it but in effect the flow stops and so they don't raise excess brood.  So in two days or so the bees will take three gal and then I am done and they lose a flow and so quit raising brood they don't need.

I am not saying I am correct cause most of my experiance is just from reading though I do practice what I preach with my own hives.
Cheers
gww

[Acebird]

I am not saying I am correct cause most of my experiance is just from reading

All of my experience is from reading and from what I read feeding in the fall should be an attempt to fill the brood nest.  So to me it raises the question did you down size the hive in prep for winter?  If the hive was crowded with bees from down sizing why would they make more bees?

[gww]

Ace
In my case, I down sized two hives but had 6 more that I actually added a couple of extracted drawn frames to fill emty space in a few of the brood boxes that did not get compleetly drawn out.  However, it seems to be a bit of a mute point as far as hives about to go into cluster for cold winter.  If I have a summer derth, the queen will shut down laying.  If I slow feed during that derth, the queen will keep laying.  It is based on flow.  So if you have a hive going into winter that does not have the stores it needs to servive winter.  If you slow feed one of two things will happen.  If on the hives you have reduced and is crowded with bees and you stimulate brood rearing but give them enough food to keep the comb filled.  They will either keep making babies and eating lots more or will get so crowded that they swarm.

So in my case, if I can see there are plenty of bees but still have room for winter stores and it is about cluster time.  Slam the food on fast to give them the stores to support those bees during winter.  If I slow feed, the bees are going to keep laying and working and eating cause they think it is a flow just like they would during a derth.

I just makes sense to me but like I said, only because I have seen it referance so much from others that this is how the bee respond to feed.
One place they referance this is in the feeding vidio on this site.
http://www.uoguelph.ca/honeybee/videos.shtml

But I have seen it else where.

The ideal is still.  What do they need with out it being too much.  Lots of people weigh their hive to figure what the right amount is.  Me, I just look at how much comb they have and guess how much it will hold and still leave an empty comb to cluster around and as long as it is enough to hold what I can give them, I usually add to close to what the min recomended weight is for my area.  I try and make sure they at least have the min in the hive.

So you had ask your question, was it because you saw a flaw in my logic?  If you did, I would enjoy hearing it cause like I said, I have a lot more reading then actual experiance and I sure don't want it left out there if I was giving some one some kind of bad advice.  I don't want to cause any one harm and more am trying to help.
Cheers
ww

[BeeMaster2]

If you want the queen to lay eggs, you slow feed 1 to 1 sugar water.  It is close enough to nectar to tell the queen that there is nectar coming in. If you want them to pack on stores for winter, you fast feed 2 to 1 sugar to water. It is close enough to honey to tell the queen that they are using stored food.
Jim

[tjc1]

Both hives have three 10-frame mediums at this point. If all three were full of honey I would expect a weight of about 155 lbs (50 lbs each medium plus bottom inner cover and lid). A current weight of 112 lbs would seem to indicate about 3/4 of one of the mediums is empty (not considering the weight of the bees). I'm wondering if I should continue to feed and if so, how long without risking too much moisture in the hive with colder weather approaching.

[gww]

Tjc
What is the recomended wieght of stores for your area.  I am in zone 5 b and I read a totorial for my area that said 40 to 60 pounds of stores to get through winter.  I know each frame wieghs a bit more then three pounds in my mediums.  I normaly so far have just put close to the min wieght for my aria in sugar water.  Then I know they have at least the min.  Michael bush said one time that a min of one comb for every seam of bees and more then two combs was a waste and should be extracted.  You could always just count and know if you need to add.  I am lazy and usual just lift the boxes and when it feels like I am in the 40 to 60 lbs area by guess, I figure I am good.

I don't know what growing zone you are in and or what is recomended for your area. 
Cheers
gww
Ps I do know that michael bush is in a much colder area then I am.

[tjc1]

Gww - from my reading, it seems that 100-120 lbs is a suggested hive weight for Italian bees in this area.  So, while I'm in that ballpark, I am a bit concerned that they seem to have been using so much of what I have given them already...

[gww]

Some might not like it but I put an emergency sugar block on my hives.  I am in a warm enough area that my bees can break cluster during winter some of the time.  If I was worried and it was above 60 degrees some of the time, I would figure what I wanted in the hive and put it all on at once.  If the bees have some place to put it, they can put it in the comb really fast.  If you have mentors that you trust in your area, I would ask them what they would do. 
I am really too new to be giving advice and so just say more of what I think and hope that I hurt no one.  In your case, there has to be someone smarter then me to turn to.  I put three gal on my hives last year and am cutting it back to two gal this year and also going to run most with a sugar block but try a few with out.  My hives were in swarm mode very early this spring and I am going to try and not have as much on a few and see if it kills them or if it helps put swarming off till a little latter and to a warmer time where it is easyer to try and adress.
Cheers
gww

[Acebird]

Both hives have three 10-frame mediums at this point.

I use 8 frame mediums and your hives would be equal to  my 4 mediums which is what I like to winter on in my area.  I would walk away and not even consider feeding.  I have had three 8 frame medium size hives make it.  112 pounds is not something I would worry about.

[Acebird]

So you had ask your question, was it because you saw a flaw in my logic?

No, the OP feed 30 pounds of sugar over a month and only netted 10 pounds.  Did his hive get the sugar or did some other hive get it?  In the beginning of Sept his hive was over 100 pounds.  Why feed?

[tjc1]

Thanks, Ace - I'll relax;)  I felt OK about the 112 lbs, but was concerned about what happened to the syrup that I gave them and wondering why they were consuming so much.

[little john]

Some might not like it but I put an emergency sugar block on my hives.  I am in a warm enough area that my bees can break cluster during winter some of the time.

That's pretty-much my approach too, except I use inverted jars of damp-set sugar or fondant - depending on what I have in store.  I try to make as good an assessment as possible - at around this time of year - and feed heavy syrup accordingly.   I don't heft, as few of my hives are identical, and colonies vary in size.  If I were a honey-farmer with dozens of identical hives, then I would.
Then, at a date dependent on how warm the winter is, I put the inverted jars over holes in the Crown Board (inner cover), checking them weekly from then on.  This only requires lifting off the roof and part of the insulation for a second or two - just enough to peek at the jar.  I have found that this method removes any uncertainty regarding the level of winter stores.

It may be relevant to this thread that unlike Carnies which are quick to regulate their brood according to the season, Italians have developed a reputation for continuing to raise brood just as long as food is coming into the hive - which I guess reflects the mild winter conditions within which that strain evolved.
LJ

[Acebird]

I have found that this method removes any uncertainty regarding the level of winter stores.

I have found that if you don't interfere in the organization of the hive even with Italians you remove a lot of uncertainty.  Bees in general collect more honey then they need.  It is usually the beekeeper that messes them up.