Style of Bottom Bar for Foundationless/Special Foundationless Frames

[The15thMember]

I've read about the options in top bars for foundationless (gluing in popsicle sticks with grooved, nailing in the wedge sideways), but what style of bottom bar should be used for foundationless? 
Also, some of the bee supply places sell foundationless frames, but they seem to be more expensive.  Do the specially marketed foundationless frames have any benefit other than the built in starter strip would make them worth the extra money?   

[little john]

There's no need to have split bottom bars if you're not going to use foundation - but that's the cheapest format from the supply houses, so that's what I buy as frames 'for sale'.  I use 2x verticle bamboo skewers per frame to support the comb, rather than monofilament fishing line, the acceptance of which was always a little erratic.
I drill holes in the top bar (using a simple jig to ensure accurate positioning) and feed the skewers through the top bar and down to the divided bottom bar, where they are trapped between the split bars, and held in place (if necessary) with large clothes-pegs. Wood glue is coated onto the top 2" of skewer prior to insertion into the top bar - that's straightforward enough.
Gluing the skewer to the split bottom bar is a bit of a faff, but I think worth the trouble. With the clothes-pegs holding the bottom bar tight, trapping the skewer, a dab of glue is placed where the skewer contacts the bottom bar, and allowed to dry.  When dry, excess skewer length can then be cut-off, and more glue added to either side of the skewer at the bottom-bar contact point. Finally, popsicle sticks are glued into the foundation groove between the skewers.  This is typical of the results:                                                         



I'm finding that this method of making foundation frames is the best I've found so far - it would be nice to speed the operation up a little - if anyone has any ideas  .... ?

BTW - for my 'not for sale' frames, I use solid bottom bars and drill holes in them exactly the same as the top bars - thusly:



Makes assembly a whole lot easier.
LJ

PS - are you in a position to make your own frames, or do you need to buy ?

[The15thMember]

PS - are you in a position to make your own frames, or do you need to buy ?

I do need to purchase.  I wish I could make my own equipment, I'm sure it's probably cheaper, but I'm just not handy enough.   

There's no need to have split bottom bars if you're not going to use foundation - but that's the cheapest format from the supply houses, so that's what I buy as frames 'for sale'.  [. . .]  BTW - for my 'not for sale' frames, I use solid bottom bars and drill holes in them exactly the same as the top bars - thusly:

Sorry, potentially newb question: I'm not sure what you mean by "'for sale'" and "'not for sale'".  Do you mean for selling honey, or for selling in nucs? 

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Sir Lil John, those are nice pics with hand made holders to hold and display the frames.  Are you meticulous with all matters?  I Must say: I am impressed, you and Jim(sawdust) are true craftsmen.  Did you see Jim's hand made observation hive.  Looks to be 2 frame stack 4 high, glass and made of oak, I think.  Really beautiful.
Blessings

[BeeMaster2]

Thanks for the nice comments Van. I made it from raw black walnut from a tree a friend in Michigan cut down and had sawed into 5/4" boards for me.
Jim

[little john]

Sorry, potentially newb question: I'm not sure what you mean by "'for sale'" and "'not for sale'".  Do you mean for selling honey, or for selling in nucs?

Hi 15th.  Apologises - for selling in nucs.  My prospective customer base is fairly small and not everyone is 'foundationless-minded', so I only sell nucs using commercially-made frames (from flat-pack), and try to make the combs look as uniform as possible with presentation in mind.  I have considered using foundation in them to make life easier, but just can't bring myself to actually do that. :)

If money is an issue, have you considered Top Bar beekeeping ?  It is a way of beekeeping 'on the cheap' - but in all honesty I can't recommend it. (personal opinion only)
LJ

[little john]

Sir Lil John, those are nice pics with hand made holders to hold and display the frames.  Are you meticulous with all matters?  I Must say: I am impressed, you and Jim(sawdust) are true craftsmen. 

Hi Van - naaah - Jim's the craftsman. He's not called 'Sawdustmaker' for nothing.  I just work with scrap wood - ex-pallets and so on - and then paint 'em up well to hide the filler ...  and the mistakes !

Although they're handy when taking photographs, I'm finding that having two frame stands can be really useful: one to hold the first frame out (to make room to work), and the second to (say) hold a frame whilst I cut-out queen cells from the comb.  I've been doing a lot of work with natural q/cells this year - but dunno whether that will continue in future years.  Maybe ...
LJ

[cao]

I've read about the options in top bars for foundationless (gluing in popsicle sticks with grooved, nailing in the wedge sideways), but what style of bottom bar should be used for foundationless?     

I think idealy it would be a solid bottom bar.  No groove for SHB's to hide but it really doesn't matter.

Also, some of the bee supply places sell foundationless frames, but they seem to be more expensive.  Do the specially marketed foundationless frames have any benefit other than the built in starter strip would make them worth the extra money?   

Not in my opinion.  If you ever decide to use foundation(wax or plastic) you can't with those frames.  I have frames with plastic foundation, some with wax foundation and some foundationless with starter strips.  I prefer the frames with the wedge top and the grooved bottom.  They are more versatile and can be used for all types of foundation.  I have been going more to foundationless with starter strips.  I have been cutting the plastic foundation into strips about 3/4 to 1 inch wide and dipping them in wax and nailing them in place. 

[The15thMember]

If money is an issue, have you considered Top Bar beekeeping ?  It is a way of beekeeping 'on the cheap' - but in all honesty I can't recommend it. (personal opinion only)
LJ

To be honest, I haven't looked deeply into Top Bar, but on the surface it didn't really appeal to me.  It seemed more like a DIY option, and I'm one of those people who likes a step-by-step list of instructions and sharp right angles.   

I think idealy it would be a solid bottom bar.  No groove for SHB's to hide but it really doesn't matter.

Wow, that's a unique benefit.  I never would have thought of that.

I prefer the frames with the wedge top and the grooved bottom.  They are more versatile and can be used for all types of foundation. 

 
Honestly, that's what I was thinking about getting.  It seemed like the best option, given that you can basically use the wedge as the starter strip, so that's one less thing to worry about.  Your point about them being more versatile, with being able to use strips of foundation with them, or use full sheets of foundation if it doesn't go well, is a big plus.  I'm probably going to go with the wedge and groove, since with that option I'm not boxed into anything. 

[mtnb]

I can get solid bottom bars at western bee. But I don't get out that way often and refuse to pay shipping on them. lol I get the grooved bottom bars and install them upside down so the groove faces down and doesn't collect debris. I tried some plastic foundation this year and it was actually nice to have the option to just pop some in.

[Michael Bush]

Any bottom bar will do but a split or grooved bottom makes a place for the wax moth worms and the small hive beetles to hide.  You could fill the groove with Popsicle sticks, and that would contribute towards the bottom of the comb getting attached sooner, but in my opinion it isn't worth the extra work.  If you are making your own, make them solid.

[Eric Bosworth]

I always use a solid bottom frame bottom. Making frames myself cutting a groove is extra unnecessary work. I have not used foundation in my entire time keeping bees. It just seems like extra work to use foundation.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[The15thMember]

I get the grooved bottom bars and install them upside down so the groove faces down and doesn't collect debris.

Good idea!  That's one of those simple and obvious solutions that I would never think of.    

[Joe D]

I have gone to the hardware stores and got paint stirring sticks, the one for 1 gal. cans.  have put some in hold and have cut some in half and put in the grooved top with wedge and hot glued in.  Haven't worried about the bottom bars, which have the gap.  I have done some in deeps, mediums, and shallows frames.  If you are careful the first time you extract them by the second time they sling out pretty good in an extractor.  The bees will generally fill the bottom groove in.

Good luck to you and your bees

Joe D

[johnwratcliff]

Have a look at Kelley f style frames. That's what I use in all my hives

[chux]

I use foundationless frames in my brood chambers, in eastern NC. Grooved bottom bars give SHB a perfect hiding spot. They don't need that extra help. They have enough hiding spots as it is. As a previous post suggested, check out Kelley foundationless frames with solid bottom bars. I have been using these for a couple of years. They are not more expensive, and are well-made. Takes the hassle/time out of needing to affix a starter strip.

[The15thMember]

Have a look at Kelley f style frames. That's what I use in all my hives

I use foundationless frames in my brood chambers, in eastern NC. Grooved bottom bars give SHB a perfect hiding spot. They don't need that extra help. They have enough hiding spots as it is. As a previous post suggested, check out Kelley foundationless frames with solid bottom bars. I have been using these for a couple of years. They are not more expensive, and are well-made. Takes the hassle/time out of needing to affix a starter strip.

I'll be sure to take a look at those frames.  I've heard some complaints about Kelley's customer service, do you guys find them to be alright?

[cao]

>I've heard some complaints about Kelley's customer service, do you guys find them to be alright?

Was it last year or two years ago when Kelley's was bought out?  Anyway that first year their internet orders and serviced was crap.  I ordered some foundation from them that took a day shy of one month to get.  In comparison mann lake took two days to get.  I think they have since gotten their act together.  I have ordered frames from them this past year and got them within a week with no problems.

[Dallasbeek]

I ordered something from them last week and it came right away.  Shipping cost was a little high, but the price over-all was good.  I guess they were trying to clear out some things.

[The15thMember]

>I've heard some complaints about Kelley's customer service, do you guys find them to be alright?

Was it last year or two years ago when Kelley's was bought out?  Anyway that first year their internet orders and serviced was crap.  I ordered some foundation from them that took a day shy of one month to get.  In comparison mann lake took two days to get.  I think they have since gotten their act together.  I have ordered frames from them this past year and got them within a week with no problems.

I ordered something from them last week and it came right away.  Shipping cost was a little high, but the price over-all was good.  I guess they were trying to clear out some things.

That's good to hear.