14 inch deep brood boxes

[Blacksheep]

Hi to all: I have been reading about the advantages of using the 14 inch deep box and I am going to build one and try it out. I read as follows,the box is the only brood box needed and the frames are 14 inches deep and standard in length.According to the source they say that only 1 box is needed and you never have to lift it!Just remove the frames as usual in inspections.
Advantages it that the brood nest is solid and no breaks like two deeps stacked the comb is solid all the way 14 inches.Less swarming according to the sources and bees are more able to stay warm in winter as it is a solid mass.The only difference is the frames are 14 inches deep with a small dowel in the center for support this dowel runs horizontal at the mid -point in the frames.
It sounds great so I will try one for my own information and learning about different ways to keep the bees.

[little john]

Hi to all: I have been reading about the advantages of using the 14 inch deep box and I am going to build one and try it out.

Whooo .... hold it.  That sounds like my post.  I'm about to run an experiment (starting any day now) to test whether this 14"x14" is as good an idea as claimed.  But I'm only testing one hive for now ... just in case.   Of course I believe it makes sense - wouldn't be doing it otherwise - but please do be aware that this is very much a 'work in progress' - I don't want to develop a reputation for being a complete nutter. 

Since starting that thread, I've found very little evidence of this size being used. There is one example in: http://www.bees.ie/biodynamic-beekeeping where 350mm x 350mm frames are employed.  (14" = 358mm)  Now although I don't particularly subscribe to 'biodynamic beekeeping', that article makes reference to commercial as well as hobby beekeeping, so it sounds like an ok method of keeping bees ... maybe.

But the principle reason I've chosen 14"x14" myself to produce a large comb size is because our standard boxes are already sized for such frames (when a deep is placed over a shallow).   If I were in your country, then I'd be looking at using the Jumbo-Langstroth instead - which gives exactly the same comb area.  But - your choice, of course. 
Strangely, Jumbo-Langstroth frames ARE available in England, but I understand are difficult to source in the US.  As you guys so often say, "go figure".

With regard to the 'single-dowel' frame, that was just a quick prototype to see what was involved.  I've decided to use two 5mm diameter bamboo barbeque skewers in each frame instead, having just found a source for them on Ebay.

I'm really pleased to read that someone-else can see the advantages of a large single box which never needs to be lifted !  I really do have great hopes for this experiment.

Wishing you the very best of luck should you decide to 'go for it' !

LJ

[little john]

Here's a suggestion ....

Get yourself a 10-frame Langstroth box - of any depth - and fit an eke beneath it made from scrap wood, to give you the 'Jumbo' depth.

Then, get some Langstroth flat-pack frames (again, any depth) and make-up some extension pieces for the sides to give you the required 'Jumbo' depth (somewhere around 11" if memory serves).  If you decide to use dowels rather than wire, fit solid bottom bars to the frames, drill holes top and bottom and glue-in 12" bamboo barbecue skewers - which should be a dime a dozen.

That way you can run an experiment for just a few dollars.  If it shows itself to be a workable system, you can THEN make 12 or 13-frame Dadant-Langstroth boxes with the knowledge already gained.

LJ

[yes2matt]

Based upon a single experience, and particularly well-trained bees, I think you could experiment with even less commitment. 

What if you put a "medium" box under a "deep" box. Then find some "deep"  frames with a split bottom, and staple some popsicle sticks or halved paint stirrers to hang under the bottom rail. So the bees will, if they're well-trained like mine :), draw the 9 inches of comb inside the frame and 6.5ish inches of comb on the bottom rail, and leave bee space at the bottom. 

Less disciplined bees might attach to the side of the box, tho, so LJ's suggestion of a frame extension is probably better. Make it easy to remove, though, so that if you "go back " you can preserve your deep frame of drawn comb (and probably brood) 

[Barhopper]

I cut out a pattern for side bars the length of a deep and medium together. I traced a deep side bar but extended the wider part down some, cut it with a jig saw, routed it for the top and bottom bar. I then screwed the pattern to the 1.5" side of a spruce 2x4. Then ran it through the router table with the longest bit with a bearing I could find. Then cut to the correct thickness on the table saw. My plan was to run rite cell foundation vertically, cut to fit. I also have not implemented it yet. I think I'm going to start a nuc with a deep and medium box to see what happens. I'm wondering if I should start with only one of these frames then slowly change out the deeps for the dedium/meep frames.

[Blacksheep]

HI guys: I jusr read all your post! and the Nuc deal sounds like a better choice for now and the frames  could be extended. Would not the frames be 14 X 14 inches deep and reference the skewers which way would you use them verticle or Horizontal?
I have been out side sugar dusting my hives for mites and put on the Micro fiber cloths for the beetles and they do catch some of them.I really don't have many beetles and hope I can keep the mites at bay!

[Blacksheep]

Hi Guys! I checked with my England contacts and they said they never heard of that setup!
I still plan on trying it!I will only do I hive to see how it goes.I am out of boxes at the present.Last week I built 4 boxes and had painted the and they were under my shed which is very visible from the Highway!Someone  stole 2 of my new deep boxes!At least they shared them as they left 2 of them for me!Grrrr I hate a thief!
If anyone gets more information about the 14 inch deep hive please post it! Thanks,Bill

[little john]

[...].LJ's suggestion of a frame extension is probably better. Make it easy to remove, though, so that if you "go back " you can preserve your deep frame of drawn comb (and probably brood)

Good thinking.

So - here's a suggestion for anyone who is planning to try extra-deep frames.  It's not a perfect solution, but perhaps good enough for testing purposes.  Image by courtesy of Microsoft's Paint - cable-ties shown in red:




Then, in the event of the experiment not living up to your expectations, simply cut the ties and junk the frame extension.

LJ

[Blacksheep]

Hi Little John: Your idea sounds like a good one however I think the plan is to have the brood solid all the way with no interruptions.
I am going to try a 5 frame nuc first and if it works might start changing all my hives.
The idea is so a fellow don't lift the heavy boxes and the brood is more like in the wild with solid combs which I have see and done cut outs with the comb 4 to 5 foot long but the width is not 14 inches usually 6 to 8 inches. Going to be a fun try out!!I am starting to day to build some frames and cut down a nuc box.

[GSF]

Yall keep us posted. You never know until you learn.

[Blacksheep]

Hi: Well I got 12 frames all cut out except the off set on the end bars and the holes for the wires.Everything going well with tha part and I must make a box for it so I am busy!Plus I must replace the 2 boxes someone stole last Friday Night!

[little john]

I've now made-up eleven 14x14 frames - these are a few of the 'two barbeque skewers' version:




So I'm almost ready - all I need now is a day with halfway reasonable weather for installing a nuc.

LJ

[Blacksheep]

Hi Your frames look great!
I just finished mine a while ago and they are the same width as a standard frame and are 14 inches deep and I will be using the wire to support the combs just like in a regular frame.Instead of the standard deep which is little over 9 inches mine are 14 inches deep. the  reason I did this is I have the bottom and tops for standard size hives.I may be making a mistake who knows??

[little john]

Thanks for the positive comment - I only hope the bees share your opinion. 

It is possible that you may be going a little too deep at 14" with a 17" frame length.  In his book "System of Beekeeping", Dadant talks about desirable frame sizes and recommends 17"x 11.5" (or thereabouts) to achieve a frame area of around 200 square inches - that's the size of the Langstroth 'Jumbo' frame which has become popular amongst Langstroth enthusiasts over here, but no longer considered fashionable within the U.S., I understand.

The 14x14's I've made give exactly the same area as the Langstroth 'Jumbo' - which is the second reason I've chosen this size - the first being that this size fits a National Deep over a Shallow, which are standard (UK) box sizes.

Incidently, I've now uncovered three books by Dadant: the first is 'Bee Primer' (1914); the second being 'First Lessons in Beekeeping' (1918); and the third 'System of Beekeeping' (1920).  He also revised later editions of the 'Hive and Honey Bee' of course, after Langstroth's death in 1895.  All of these books are available as free downloads either from Cornell, or the Internet Archive. http://www.archive.org

The 20th Edition (1919) of Langstroth's 'Hive and Honey Bee' can be downloaded in .pdf format from:  http://ia800204.us.archive.org/28/items/cu31924003227646/cu31924003227646.pdf  and can be converted into .djvu format via: http://any2djvu.djvuzone.org
The above 18Mb .pdf becomes a mighty 97Mb .djvu in the process, but is then a delight to read, which cannot be said for archive.org's .djvu version which, although just 23Mb, is very poor, at least on my machine.

Ok - so if you download a copy of 'Hive and Honey Bee', the relevant section starts at page 149.
On page 153 Dadant cautions against excessively deep frames, and on the next page recommends either the size used by Quinby (16" x 11.5" = circa 189 square inches), or the use of Langstroth length & Quinby depth (11.5").
On page 164 he confirms 17+7/8" x 11+1/8" (199 sq in) as being the ideal frame size when using Langstroth boxes.

So there you go - hope that info is of some use to you - 'Hive and Honey Bee' is a damn good read in it's own right if you haven't already done so.

We've just had a summer storm roll through - no flying at all over the last 4-5 days - but I'm hoping to install bees tomorrow when the temperatures are forecast to recover.

'best
LJ

[AR Beekeeper]

I have a couple of boxes that use a frame made with the standard top and bottom bars and 12.625 inch end bars.  This gives a working comb area 17 x 11.50 inches.  I used a standard deep body and added a skirt on the bottom to get the added depth, making a box 13 inches deep.  The box holds 9 frames spaced 1.5 inches center to center and a dummy board.  I used Pierco plastic foundation, using a sheet of 8 in. deep foundation and a piece cut to fill the remainder of the frame.

The colony drew out the 9 extra large frames and 2 medium supers of foundation before our nectar flow started.  It took 4 gallons of syrup to get comb drawn , but I wanted to try the boxes out this year.  The colony filled the 2 mediums with surplus honey and 2 frames on the sides of the brood area.

I have used the standard jumbo hive in the past with good results.  I never lost a colony in that group of 24 over winter.  There was a problem with winter stores, the bees all wanted to put the honey above with very little in the brood nest.  I would have to feed each fall, but the surplus was worth it.  If the 14 inch frames you are making are too deep the bees will want to store too much honey above the brood instead of taking it above to the surplus supers.  This will be noticed early in the nectar flow.

The extra deep frames are hard to withdraw if you don't use a dummy board, especially in a strong wind, and you don't want to let the brood chamber fill with honey and try to move it to a new location without help lifting it.

One problem Dadant had constructing and selling the deep box was the extra cost of the wide boards to make it.  Beekeepers were penny pinchers and did not want to pay the increased cost of the box.  There was a problem using spliced board because the adhesives they had would fail.

[Blacksheep]

Thanks Guys :Your information is valuable !I can sTill cut the framEs down and will do so to make them 11.5 inches deep and as mentioned, I will use only 9 frames and dummy board!tHIS IS A FUN EXPERIMENT!i HOPE IT WORKS!

[texanbelchers]

This sounds interesting.  Have any of you thought about swarm control methods?  Or, is there info about possible reduction in swarm tendency?

[Jim134]

Some you may like to try.

https://beevac.com/double-deep-frames/


            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[little john]

This sounds interesting.  Have any of you thought about swarm control methods?  Or, is there info about possible reduction in swarm tendency?

I have read that the use of large frames generates a marked reduction in the tendency to swarm, but of course as yet have no first-hand experience to support that.
 
The BioDynamic lot also claim that fitting a deep floor (a 4" space between the frame bottoms and floor) also reduces the tendency to swarm, by allowing the cluster somewhere to 'hang downwards' in during hot weather.  Apparently, they don't build wild comb in that space, having been given such large frames upon which to build their combs initially.  CC Miller also installed a 2" space there without problems.

My own set-up will have just a 1" space at the bottom - not by design - but as the result of cobbling together old unused equipment for this experiment.

I'm pleased AR Beekeeper mentioned the division/dummy board - I wasn't too sure about the importance of that - I have made one for this size, but up until now was a little lukewarm about it's importance.

LJ

[Blacksheep]

Hi John: Well I got on the club's site in NY and boy is that hive a nice one!It holds 14 frames and is 18 inches deep plus the bottom board.I sent a email trying to get more information about it. I was just in my garage and trying out a scheme which is a standard 16 and 1/4 X 20 inch Lang deep hive but I could only get 12 frames in that by using the 20 inch side as the end bar side instead of the 16 1/4 end as standard. Maybe I will get the proper measurements from them I sure hope so!
I got some wood yesterday just for this hive all I need is some measurements.Ha ready to try it.

I did build some frames that were  standard length 17 X 14 deep but the don't look correct and the side bars are only 3/8 inches thick and the one in the 18 inch deep frames are 3/4 inch thick.This is a really interesting project!