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Author Topic: Gas box for drawn frames  (Read 7418 times)

Offline BeeMaster2

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Gas box for drawn frames
« on: August 08, 2017, 12:36:21 pm »
Has anyone tried using carbon dioxide or other gas in a closed container to kill SMB's/wax moths, their eggs and larvae when removing drawn comb from hives?
I am thinking of building a box or using an old freezer, since it is already pretty air tight and adding an inert gas into it to protect the comb.
Will it kill the eggs as well as the larvae and bugs?
Jim
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2017, 02:29:06 pm »
CO2 will kill the eggs as well as the larvae and the adults.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2017, 02:34:26 pm »
So will freezing for a few days.
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 05:40:34 pm »
Has anyone tried using carbon dioxide or other gas in a closed container to kill SMB's/wax moths, their eggs and larvae when removing drawn comb from hives?
I am thinking of building a box or using an old freezer, since it is already pretty air tight and adding an inert gas into it to protect the comb.
Will it kill the eggs as well as the larvae and bugs?
Jim

Putting on my Year10 Dux of Chemistry hat - which is a tad moth eaten itself, Jim - like what our "Greenies/TreeHuggers" approve of as a method to despatch canetoads (bufos marinus [sp?]) CO2 kills by asphixiation (sp?)
in depriving said toads of oxygen. Given all eggs have a membrane to allow oxygen and moisture to penetrate in sustaining the egg I would deduce likewise applies.
So yes, and I would offer "Dry Nitrogen" is maybe cheaper and easier to handle and also could be used to pump up your vehicle tyres! :-)

Cheers.

Bill

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2017, 01:21:39 pm »
Has anyone tried using carbon dioxide or other gas in a closed container to kill SMB's/wax moths, their eggs and larvae when removing drawn comb from hives?
I am thinking of building a box or using an old freezer, since it is already pretty air tight and adding an inert gas into it to protect the comb.
Will it kill the eggs as well as the larvae and bugs?
Jim

Putting on my Year10 Dux of Chemistry hat - which is a tad moth eaten itself, Jim - like what our "Greenies/TreeHuggers" approve of as a method to despatch canetoads (bufos marinus [sp?]) CO2 kills by asphixiation (sp?)
in depriving said toads of oxygen. Given all eggs have a membrane to allow oxygen and moisture to penetrate in sustaining the egg I would deduce likewise applies.
So yes, and I would offer "Dry Nitrogen" is maybe cheaper and easier to handle and also could be used to pump up your vehicle tyres! :-)

Cheers.

Bill


I will check into the nitrogen. I did not think it would be cheaper than CO2.
Jim
Has anyone tried using carbon dioxide or other gas in a closed container to kill SMB's/wax moths, their eggs and larvae when removing drawn comb from hives?
I am thinking of building a box or using an old freezer, since it is already pretty air tight and adding an inert gas into it to protect the comb.
Will it kill the eggs as well as the larvae and bugs?
Jim

Putting on my Year10 Dux of Chemistry hat - which is a tad moth eaten itself, Jim - like what our "Greenies/TreeHuggers" approve of as a method to despatch canetoads (bufos marinus [sp?]) CO2 kills by asphixiation (sp?)
in depriving said toads of oxygen. Given all eggs have a membrane to allow oxygen and moisture to penetrate in sustaining the egg I would deduce likewise applies.
So yes, and I would offer "Dry Nitrogen" is maybe cheaper and easier to handle and also could be used to pump up your vehicle tyres! :-)

Cheers.

Bill

Has anyone tried using carbon dioxide or other gas in a closed container to kill SMB's/wax moths, their eggs and larvae when removing drawn comb from hives?
I am thinking of building a box or using an old freezer, since it is already pretty air tight and adding an inert gas into it to protect the comb.
Will it kill the eggs as well as the larvae and bugs?
Jim

Putting on my Year10 Dux of Chemistry hat - which is a tad moth eaten itself, Jim - like what our "Greenies/TreeHuggers" approve of as a method to despatch canetoads (bufos marinus [sp?]) CO2 kills by asphixiation (sp?)
in depriving said toads of oxygen. Given all eggs have a membrane to allow oxygen and moisture to penetrate in sustaining the egg I would deduce likewise applies.
So yes, and I would offer "Dry Nitrogen" is maybe cheaper and easier to handle and also could be used to pump up your vehicle tyres! :-)

Cheers.

Bill

I will check into the nitrogen. I did not think it would be cheaper than CO2.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2017, 01:23:54 pm »
Sorry about the double post. I typed it and it disappeared. Tried several things to get back to it and had to start over. When I saved it, it came up as is.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline paus

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2017, 01:38:42 pm »
I think I lost a post also.  How about putting some dry ice in the bottom of an old deep freezer and filling it with frames. Close the lid and leave it alone, as the dry ice evaporates it will release CO2 and suffocate any thing that requires oxygen. If the freezer works turn it on and hit them with a double whammy.

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2017, 04:00:37 pm »
I think I lost a post also.  How about putting some dry ice in the bottom of an old deep freezer and filling it with frames. Close the lid and leave it alone, as the dry ice evaporates it will release CO2 and suffocate any thing that requires oxygen. If the freezer works turn it on and hit them with a double whammy.
That's great if you have dry ice... and a freezer... My problem is I don't have a freezer big enough for the number of frames I would want to freeze.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline paus

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2017, 06:33:26 pm »
Our local Walmart has dry ice and Craig's list has Free freezers very often and some of them work.

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2017, 10:50:27 pm »
Humm... I never thought to look at craigslist for a freezer. I'll have to check it out.

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Offline eltalia

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2017, 05:40:00 am »
If it helps Eric.. back in the day icecream for kids at jamborees and fetes was stored in a canvas bag, at around 1200mm high with a 300mm diameter these bags kept icecream 'cones'  frozen with maybe a kilogram of dry-ice packed.
Reason I mention it is maybe one could tarp(cover) a large number of frames then throw in the CO2 pellets to gas them. Might need some work to thrash out the final method but should be way more efficient than running a freezer of the size required.
Worth a thought, I reckon.

Cheers.

Bill

(edited by author for spelling)

Offline paus

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2017, 08:52:31 am »
Dry ice is co2 as it evaporates it would settle in the bottom of the freezer and take care of your varmints by suffocation. by displacing the air in the freezer. co2 has a specific gravity of 1.528 therefore it would settle in the freezer.  The freezing factor would not need to be a consideration, or possibly a garbage bag and a little dry ice would be effective.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2017, 09:17:50 am »
Dry ice is co2 as it evaporates it would settle in the bottom of the freezer and take care of your varmints by suffocation. by displacing the air in the freezer. co2 has a specific gravity of 1.528 therefore it would settle in the freezer.  The freezing factor would not need to be a consideration, or possibly a garbage bag and a little dry ice would be effective.

It would be better to use a refrigerator to let the oxygen out.  Just make sure the trap in the defrost drain is blown out.  If you use a chest freezer put a small stick between the door and chest on the hinge side.  That should create enough leakage to let the oxygen out.
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Offline paus

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2017, 10:06:27 am »
I have had some experience with dry ice, as an instrumentation and controls engineer, I worked for the world leader in manufacture of dry ice equipment. When the Dry ice evaporates it expands as the co2 is heaver than air, the air rises,  even if the lid was tight there would be enough pressure to force all of the air out of the deepfreeze.  The DI will layer on the bottom and force air out of a deep freeze. A fridge will allow the co2 to flow out of any micro opening in the bottom of the door and would be ineffective.  Picture this as similar to oil and water, the water settles out of the oil, as will the co2 in air.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2017, 10:11:57 am »
If that were true kids wouldn't suffocate in a refrigerator.
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Offline paus

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2017, 11:13:41 am »
Kids do suffocate in abandoned fridges, this is apples and oranges, in that humans generate lots of co2 and need air to breath  which is not available in the quantity needed.  A fridge would work but a freezer is air tight in the bottom, where the co2 settles.  The garbage bag is also air tight except for pin holes sometimes , witness the water on the floor from carrying out the garbage, which is strongly pointed out by my normally loving wife, as she hands me a mop.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2017, 02:16:19 pm »
If what you are saying is true you could lay the refrigerator on it's back and essentially you have the same chest. You are not running the refrigerator.  I am not convinced that there is enough leakage in a refrigerator door to exhaust the CO2 such that it wouldn't suffocate the eggs and larvae.
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Offline paus

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2017, 02:33:56 pm »
Ace, I think you are right on target by laying the fridge on its back.  If the seal around the door is  tight it would work standing up real well, but I like the idea of laying it down.

Offline little john

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2017, 05:17:17 pm »
If it's asphyxiation you're after, then a light-fraction hydrocarbon would do the job.  We all know that methane kills (all too often) when farmers work inside slurry tanks without breathing apparatus.  Propane, butane, even gasoline would asphyxiate by being heavier than air and thus displacing it, and so denying any access to oxygen.  The only problem with these of course is that all it would take is one small spark and ... well ... you wouldn't have a wax moth problem anymore, that's for sure.
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2017, 06:07:30 pm »
LJ wrote
"If it's asphyxiation you're after...."

There is where both my posts go.
G'mnt border control biosecurity uses the tarp concept on whole
shipping containers in fumigating the contents without unpacking the box.
Trapping an inert gas long enough to asphyxiate should work on the
 same line of practice.

Cheers.

Bill