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Author Topic: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc  (Read 11119 times)

Offline NZrebel

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Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« on: October 21, 2015, 02:43:25 pm »
Hi, new to bees this year, first post on here so be gentle. :grin:

  I have a nuc, it has three 5 frame medium bodies full of bees, honey and pollen. The bottom board on it is solid, and i see a lot of advice to go to a screened bottom, even for winter, to allow ventilation.

   It seems to me that I understand the need for ventilation but also cringe at the though of the bottom of the hive being essentially open. I have the screened bottom board and I'm ready to put it on, just wanted to check with the collective....

   Dave


 

Offline OldMech

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2015, 10:28:07 pm »
Not sure how rough your winter is in Virginia?
   I am further north in Iowa. i winter nucs in two 5 frame medium boxes, or ten frames, five over five. No upper ventilation for a nuc, insulation on the cover. Two nucs pushed togehter and wrapped with tar paper. A shim with sugar cakes on top in case they run out of reserves, or cant reach the corners due to COLD weather...  because of the WIND and possible cold I stay away from screened bottom boards.
   In Virginia the winters may not be as cold and the winds less than 50+mph when its -20 degreez....
   Best bet is to talk to someone nearby and see how they do it if you can.
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline rwlaw

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2015, 08:29:07 am »
The debate is still on with SBB or solids.
Personally, solids. From experience, the queen doesn't lay in the bottom of the frames in colder weather and they're nothing but a pain in the butt to the hive in a dearth because of robbers trying to figure out how to get in thru the basement door. Dropped kicked them to the curb long ago.
Can't ever say that bk'n ain't a learning experience!

Offline Rurification

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2015, 09:09:29 am »
I started with screened bottom boards because it was the 'in' thing and got rid of them after losing all my bees 2 winters in a row.   I'm on solids now and the bees built up a lot better this year than previously.   Screens would be nice for one month during the summer when it's really hot, but the bees beard through it.   The rest of the time I'm happy with the solids.   And the solids do cut down on the robbing some like Rod said.
Robin Edmundson
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Offline NZrebel

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2015, 09:55:48 am »

  Thanks for the replies, all. Especially for your input on the solid board.

  I think I will repost this in General to see if I can figure out what local Virginia people do.

  Dave

Offline rookie2531

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2015, 07:41:56 pm »
I think a small upper hole in a shim full of sugar brick is better than open bottom. I have a dink, 5 frame medium and two 5 frame deeps that I'm going to try it with.

Offline little john

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2015, 06:25:57 pm »
I started with screened bottom boards because it was the 'in' thing and got rid of them after losing all my bees 2 winters in a row.   I'm on solids now ...

Isn't it interesting how methods vary in different locations ? I've been going in completely the opposite direction to yourself for the last few years: all my full-sized hives currently over-winter on 100% OMF's (SBB's) - albeit many have a 3-sided skirt below the mesh and a solid board below that - so there's very little draught 'up the skirt' as it were ...  But - zero winter losses during the last three years.
With regard to nucs - I originally built a number of 6-frame boxes with integral solid floors, but am currently retro-fitting them with 25% (floor area) mesh as they have become very wet inside and have started to grow mould.

LJ
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Offline Wombat2

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2015, 09:51:37 pm »
One of our Beek groups here published and article on condensation in hives - it was based on research done in the US Timber Industry in the 1920s ! Logic says hot air rises cold air descends but when you vent the hot air out the top condensation happens. They found that kiln drying lumber required that the vents should be at the bottom of the kiln. Hot then fills the kiln (hive) from the top down thereby pushing the cold moisture laden air out the bottom. Vented bottom boards therefore help reduce condensation particularly in the winter. Hot summers still need top ventilation as well as the ambient temperature is much higher and moisture levels in the air are lower.
David L

Offline rookie2531

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2015, 10:05:10 pm »
I've seen the same research when looking at making a solar dehydrator.

Offline OldMech

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2015, 10:16:15 pm »
My hives are apparently defective then...  no top vent I get a lot of ice build up around the edges.. I use foam on the top, Ice didnt build up there, but a lot of it built up around the edges and sides, to the point of freezing the outside frames in solid.  A small upper vent/entrance fixed that... it also fixed the ice dam that built up around the lower entrance... meaning.. i didnt have to worry about it anymore because they have an upper entrance for those upper 40 degree days.. so i dont have to go out and clear/chip entrances anymore...
   I think it has a lot to do with your location and humidity. Not to mention temps and the wind chill factor.
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline little john

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2015, 06:23:05 am »
One of our Beek groups here published and article on condensation in hives - it was based on research done in the US Timber Industry in the 1920s ! Logic says hot air rises cold air descends ...

Yep - and moist air also rises (that's why we get clouds in the sky) - warm, moist air doubly so - so what they discovered is counter-intuitive. I'd really appreciate links to any of the sources you may have - as this research sounds well-worth reading. Practice instead of theory.

LJ

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Offline little john

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2015, 06:38:06 am »
My hives are apparently defective then...  no top vent  [..]   
I think it has a lot to do with your location and humidity. Not to mention temps and the wind chill factor.

By sheer coincidence, a beekeeping colleague sent me scans of a few pages from Killion's 1951 'Honey in the Comb' last night. In those pages Kilion makes reference to living in Illinois - the next state to yourself - and his method of dealing with your severe winters was to retain a bottom entrance, but install pairs of hives inside 'flat-pack' winter packing cases, and adding additional straw. (well, it was the 1950's)  I don't know if you've come across this author ? Apparently he's well respected, although this is my first knowledge of the guy. His over-wintering success claims are impressive.  Just thought I'd chuck this 'in the pot' ...

LJ
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Offline little john

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2015, 11:15:01 am »
What I'm finding really interesting here, is how theory and practice are conflicting on this occasion:
Water has a molecular weight of around 18, whereas gaseous nitrogen has a molecular weight of around 28, and oxygen 32 - therefore molecules of water vapour are much lighter than dry air, and will rise. Which of course, is why we have clouds high up in the sky.

However, having done a search for appropiate terms using Google, I discovered a 1919 paper by Harry  D. Tiemann. Now Tiemann was no slouch when it came to chemistry - he even taught chemistry for a while - so would have been well aware of the molecular weight argument. However, on page 15 of his paper, he writes:
Quote
" ... evaporation is of itself a cooling operation, and calculation shows that the effect of evaporation is to increase the density of the humid air in spite of the fact that more vapor has therefore been added. [my emphasis] This means that there is a natural tendency of the air to descend as it passes through the lumber, particularly when rapid drying is taking place. The arrangement of the pile of lumber and the kiln, therefore, should be such as not to oppose but to assist the natural gravity tendency. Success or failure sometimes hinge on this point. Extensive observations under all kind of conditions and in all kinds of kilns have shown that this theory of the downward tendency of the air through the pile is the correct principle." 'Kiln Drying of Wood for Airplanes', 1919, Harry D. Tiemann

I think his wording of the above reveals that he is well aware that what he is saying runs contrary to what simple theory would otherwise suggest.

I think this finding must have profound implications for the reduction of humidity within beehives.

LJ
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Offline Duane

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2015, 09:25:31 pm »
Regarding kiln drying of wood, I'm just thinking things aren't the same as in the beehive.

It is true, that one of the reasons I have chosen top entrances is for hoping for the cooling effect in the summer.  As the bees bring in water to cool the hive, the coolness remains in the hive instead of "running out" the bottom entrance.  Also, as they evaporate the honey, the warm moist air rises out the top.  Does seem contradictory, but I haven't thought through all this completely.

However, with kiln drying of wood, I'm assuming they pipe in dry hot air.  As the dry hot air evaporates the moisture, it would have a cooling effect becoming heavier.  But this is different than in a beehive in winter, isn't it?  There's already moisture in the hive, it is warmed, so shouldn't it become lighter?

In other words, if you take moist air and add heat to it, it rises.  If you take dry air and add moisture to it, it sinks.  Am I right?

I could be all wrong here, but I think dry hot air in kiln drying can't be compared to what is happening in a beehive.  Easy to find out, though.  Have a 30 hives with top entrances and 30 with bottom in the same area(s), go through multiple winters, and see which ones have more moisture problems.

Offline little john

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2015, 05:08:19 am »
Regarding kiln drying of wood, I'm just thinking things aren't the same as in the beehive.
[...]
with kiln drying of wood, I'm assuming they pipe in dry hot air.

It's always a mistake to make such assumptions ...

Compared with beehives, the process is near-enough identical. I strongly suggest you read Tiemann's reports for the full story. There's no dry air involved at all - quite the contrary. During the drying process water is sprayed into the building to maintain a high humidity in order to slow-down and control the drying-out process. Hot dry air would only serve to dry the outside regions of the wood, leaving moisture at it's heart - this would cause cracking. Tiemann goes into great detail about this.

He even makes the point that describing the process as 'kiln-drying' is highly misleading, as most 'kilns' do indeed work on the principle of dry, very hot conditions.

As I've said - the process is near-enough identical - the object being to decrease the level of moisture in either wood or nectar by the use of raised temperature with it's accompanying rise in Relative Humidity. The 'kiln' building is fully sealed, with the only exit being for the condensed moisture via drains at it's base. Being thus sealed, the drying kiln is immune from variations in environmental humidity.  With beehives, the equivalent to drains for condensed moisture would be an OMF or bottom entrance.

Although obviously not intended as such, Tiemann's papers provide an explanation for how the honey bee is able to dry dilute nectar into hygroscopic honey by the use of modest heat, even when the hive is located within an area of persistent high humidity (such as my own).

LJ
 
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Offline Duane

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2015, 08:21:10 pm »
I guess I am wrong.  From a link on basement humidity:
http://www.northeastbasementsystems.com/about-us/news-and-events/370-does-humid-air-go-up-or-down.html
Quote
Well, according to Isaac Newton, in his book Opticks, (and USA Today) humid air is actually LESS dense than dry air.
I had no idea there was such a discussion over the issue. 

I searched but could not locate the Tiemann's papers.

So what you're showing is that if you have humid air, add heat to it, it sinks?  I still think there is more going on.  Do you have a link to the papers?

Something that stands out is where you said, "with the only exit being for the condensed moisture via drains at it's base."  Condensed?  What's causing it to condense?  There must be something cool in there.  And condensed water is different than humid air.  Need to know what's actually happening in the kiln.

Offline little john

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2015, 05:56:14 am »
I guess I am wrong.  From a link on basement humidity:
http://www.northeastbasementsystems.com/about-us/news-and-events/370-does-humid-air-go-up-or-down.html
Quote
Well, according to Isaac Newton, in his book Opticks, (and USA Today) humid air is actually LESS dense than dry air.
I had no idea there was such a discussion over the issue. 

I searched but could not locate the Tiemann's papers.

So what you're showing is that if you have humid air, add heat to it, it sinks?  I still think there is more going on.  Do you have a link to the papers?

Something that stands out is where you said, "with the only exit being for the condensed moisture via drains at it's base."  Condensed?  What's causing it to condense?  There must be something cool in there.  And condensed water is different than humid air.  Need to know what's actually happening in the kiln.

If you re-read my post of 30th Oct - the quote reads:

Quote
the effect of evaporation is to increase the density of the humid air in spite of the fact that more vapor has therefore been added. [my emphasis] This means that there is a natural tendency of the air to descend

It is the increased DENSITY of the moist air which results from evaporation which causes it to descend.

That is why a DYNAMIC evaporative system such as wood-drying or nectar drying cannot be directly compared to those other situations where evaporation is NOT taking place. In those other situations where heat is simply being applied, then warm moist air will certainly rise.

That is why a theoretical approach to the internal workings of a beehive as being a case of 'simple physics' is inadequate.  Much of science is like this - a single-variable approach is fine when considering static systems, but becomes fraudulent (in the Medawarian sense) when used in an attempt to explain dynamic systems where several variables may be in simultaneous operation. This is where the classic scientific method is totally inadequate, and why this work by Tiemann is so valuable - for he explains why an event which is counter-intuitive works in practice. The proof that he is correct can be found within a multi-billion dollar industry founded upon his discovery.

I have every sympathy (if that is the right word ...) for anyone who cannot get their heads around this idea of 'moist air generated from evaporation' actually descending rather than ascending, for this - I fully agree - is completely counter-intuitive, being in conflict with what happens within non-evaporative systems.

Tiemann's reports can be found at:
https://archive.org/details/theoryofdryingit00tiemrich
https://archive.org/details/kilndryingoflumb01tiem

And the report from which I quoted earlier in this thread:
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1920/naca-report-65.pdf

Hope you find this stuff enlightening ... :)

LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2015, 01:36:57 pm »
Correct me if I am wrong, the evaporated air descends because it is cooled compared to the air in the kiln not because it has more moisture. The air in the kiln also has a high moisture content but is is warmer than the cooled evaporated air.
Thanks for posting that LJ.
Jim
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Offline Duane

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2015, 10:01:07 pm »
Ok, I've read more than I understand.  I now do understand there's a lot more going on in wood drying than I ever imagined!  Thanks for the link.

Now that I understand a little bit, I still think it cannot be compared to a hive.  What I understand the Theory of Drying saying is that heat evaporates the water (in the wood).  The heat must come internally or from other sources.  In the kiln, it comes in the form of superheated steam.  By heating the saturated water vapor above 212 degrees, the relative humidity becomes less, so it's not saturated any more.  "Dryer", relatively speaking.  As this superheated steam contacts the surface of the wood, the heat is transferred, reducing the steam to 212.  By applying enough heat to the wood, this evaporates the water in the wood.  But now that the steam is cooled it passes through the condenser and sprayer at which point it became more than I could fully understand.  Something about cooling, saturating, and then heating to reduce the relative humidity to start the process over again.

The reason the air descends, as sawdstmakr said, is because this superheated steam is now at a low of 212, no longer superheated, and cooler than the steam coming in.  But I would say the air in the kiln has a low relative moisture content.  The steam raised the saturation point.

Lot's of complex things going on there.  But how does all this relate to a hive?  The hive produces its own heat internally.  It is not superheated, meaning a phase shift is not happening. 

I agree that the theoretical approach is inadequate as there may be more things happening in a hive than thought of.  So why not test it?  But where Little John said, "This is where the classic scientific method is totally inadequate", I'm not sure I understand that.  The scientific method should be used in the case to find out.  I understand the scientific method to mean, test and observe.  For if we applied kiln drying theory to hives without testing, would that not be the theoretical approach?

Offline little john

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2015, 10:23:54 am »

Lot's of complex things going on there.  But how does all this relate to a hive?  The hive produces its own heat internally.  It is not superheated, meaning a phase shift is not happening. 
I'm not sure the source of heat is important - that a molecule of water vapour is generated by some means is where we could reasonably start an attempt to track what subsequently happens to that molecule.

Quote
Little John said, "This is where the classic scientific method is totally inadequate", I'm not sure I understand that. 
Inadequate for two reasons - firstly, because the classic scientific method invariably relies upon the manipulation of a single variable, yet in practice with biological systems, there may be multiple variables involved - especially with 'whole organism' biological systems (and when such organisms have intelligence, and may react independently), as opposed to studies of muscle fibres and so forth, which certainly do lend themselves to traditional biological experiments.

Secondly, the classic scientific method assumes that conducting an experiment does not change the scenario under investigation.

For a more in-depth explanation of these and other limitations of scientific enquiry, suggest you Google "Peter Medawar - Is the Scientific Paper a Fraud ?" [in which he concludes that it is]

Returning to the molecule of water vapour (gas) within a beehive scenario for a moment - it may well be the case that such a molecule descends due to an increase of density cause by evaporative cooling. Now if we accept that this is so, then the opposite dynamic will also occur - namely, if such a molecule comes into contact with a warm surface (such as a wax comb) or other molecules of warmed gas, then there will be a transfer of thermal energy such that the effects of the evaporative cooling become neutralised, and even reversed - with the molecule of water vapour once again becoming lighter than air, and ascending accordingly.

So - if this is anywhere near the case - it then becomes a 'percentage game' - with some water vapour molecules ascending and some descending - depending upon their individual temperatures.

I hope we can at least agree that this is a highly complex situation, and one in which there are probably no obvious answers.


I think this might be an appropriate moment to remind ourselves that exclusive logic (true or false, existence or non-existence, etc) is a human invention, a creation of Aristotle which was revived and taught from the 11th Century European Intellectual Renaissance onwards. Because we are introduced to such an idea during our formative years, we consider it to be unchallengeable. We talk about something being 'logical', as if it were transparently obvious and not really worthy of further examination.

But here we have a wonderful example (I think) of a non-Aristotelian system.
Question: "Does moist air rise - yes or no ?"
Answer: "Well, it all depends on what happens to individual molecules ..."

Question: "Is it best to have an upper or lower entrance to ventilate a hive ?"
Answer: "Either will work. There is no 'best'."

The idea of two opposite scenarios being equally valid may offend our sense of what is reasonable, and that one MUST be better than the other. There are many such ideas based on the primal concept of 'The One' which can also be traced back to Aristotle - so I blame him for any brain damage ... or rather those 11th Century monks.
:smile:

LJ
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