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Author Topic: 8 frame or 10 frame??  (Read 11842 times)

Offline orin

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8 frame or 10 frame??
« on: October 18, 2015, 01:51:48 am »
Soon i will be building my own hives for next spring but im not sure if i want to build 10 frame hives or 8 frame hives. whats the pros and cons of the two? Which one should i build?
Orin Hayes

Offline OldMech

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2015, 10:37:24 am »

   Firs thing to consider, is how physically fit are you?
   A ten frame deep filled with honey can weigh 90 pounds. A ten frame medium 60 ish pounds. if your going to have twenty hives using 8 frame mediums might be the best way to save your back.
   Beyond the weight issue, there is also the ability to exchange Frames anywhere you want, if you use all the same sized frames for brood and honey supers..  This is what i do. I use all ten frame mediums.. three mediums for the brood chamber = 5/8 of an inch or so taller than two deeps. I can steel last years honey super to start a new hive with drawn comb. I can swap in frames of capped honey int he fall if they have not managed to store enough for winter. i can move eggs up or down or over, anywhere I need them etc... 
   You can do that with ten frame deeps, using those deeps as honey supers as well, but as stated.. MAN they are heavy!

   I have talked with a LOT of new beeks, giving classes and talks. MANY MANY of them start beekeeping using the two deep brood boxes with two medium honey supers. They do this because they THINK its how they are supposed to start, and that its the best way..  In fact, this is how I started. It did not take me long to realize the advantages of all mediums, and I run all mediums now.. i have a few deeps, it seems I cannot EVER get rid of them all.. inheriting deeps, either from a beek getting out of beekeeping, or when i buy out another beekeeper...  But each spring as I rotate boxes those deeps are pulled and fresh mediums used to replace them.
   it makes NO DIFFERENCE if you use deeps, or mediums. the bees dont care.
   I have read often about how much MORE it costs to use mediums because you need extra equipment.. this is true. i figured it out, and found that it usually costs about seven dollars more for the extra deep. The wood is less expensive and saves you money, but you need an extra ten frames. If seven dollars is enough to put you off using mediums then beekeeping may not be the best choice of a hobby!
   As i get older. I may begin to switch to 8 frame mediums. At the current time I am doing well with the 10 frame mediums. the choice of what to use IS dictated by YOU, and what you feel would work the best with your method of keeping bees.
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline cao

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2015, 01:17:37 pm »
I think that the main difference for the beek between 8 and 10 frame is just the size and/or weight.  The bees will use whatever you decide to build.  If you are building your own boxes than it is entirely up to you.  You could build any size you want from a 2 frame nuc to a four foot long long hive.  I use 10 frame hives and 5 frame nucs.  I am also one of the crazy people that have deep, med, and shallow boxes.  I don't see a real difference in the bees with the different sizes.  I am thinking about building some 8 frame equipment this winter to try out.   Some say the bees will fill out 8 frame boxes more complete the a 10 frame.  I have noticed that the outside frames on ten frame box tend to be ignored sometimes.  I think that is the only difference for the bees.  Like I said, it is your preference, the bees won't care.  Welcome to the addicting hobby of beekeeping.

Offline orin

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2015, 03:06:57 pm »
Mech how many boxes do you use for brood while using the mediums?
Orin Hayes

Offline little john

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2015, 03:26:00 pm »
I have noticed that the outside frames on ten frame box tend to be ignored sometimes. 

I haven't commented before now, as I don't run Langstroths - but it is exactly the same story with 11-frame British Nationals - the outer frames tend not to be used that often, the outer sides of the outer frames almost never get used.

Also - some beekeepers in the north of the country have taken to dummying-down their brood boxes to 8-frames over winter. Reports of this practice are very favourable.

Lastly - Warre opted for 8 frames in his hives. I don't know if that is significant - but the use of 8-frames in a box does appear to have it's advocates - for reasons other than reduced weight etc.

LJ


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Offline OldMech

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2015, 05:05:51 pm »
Three medium brood boxes equal two deeps. They are actually about 5/8 of an inch taller. I also like the extra gap, it seems to allow the bees to move a little easier in our COLD windy winters.

   i have noticed the same about the outside frames being ignored at times. My mentor taught me long ago to shift the frames...   meaning, when i do a full inspection, i pull the right outside frame, and set it aside. Pull the next frame, inspect, and putit back into the hive against the right wall, and pull the next frame etc, when the inspection is done, there is the space on the LEFT wall where I place the former right side wall frame. Over the course of the summer the unfilled frames slowly move to center, in what my mentor called the "primary" positions. the bees do NOT like empty frames getting close to their brood area, and will fill them, usually pretty quickly as they slowly move toward the center.
    just my way of dealing with those empty outside frames in a ten frame box!
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Offline Michael Bush

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Offline Hi-Tech

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2015, 03:07:10 pm »
I moved to 8 frame this year and I really like it. Everything is lighter and the bees seem to do a better job of using those outside frames.
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Offline feenix3k

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2015, 03:38:38 am »
From my reading, 8 frame mediums , takes two of them to equal a deep. So you need 4 8 frame mediums to equal a two deep box basic hive.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2015, 10:52:16 am »
> So you need 4 8 frame mediums to equal a two deep box basic hive.

Yes.
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Offline RoyalTummy

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2015, 01:34:16 pm »
Im 65 and have had bees for over 50 of them years.
Trust me, go to 8frame mediums for all your colonies and save your back.
Nice having everything the same size either for brood or honey.

Offline Richard M

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2015, 09:09:53 pm »
Im 65 and have had bees for over 50 of them years.
Trust me, go to 8frame mediums for all your colonies and save your back.
Nice having everything the same size either for brood or honey.

It's hard to get mediums here, either ideals or deeps, but I wanted to stick with one size fits all, so I've opted for 8-frame deeps.

I've not had to lift a full one yet though.  :shocked:

Offline dunderi

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2015, 06:27:54 pm »
8 frame ideals seems to be the choice most take around my area.

I've opted for ten frame ideals because of the extra equipment available,  and lifting a ten isn't hard for me as I'm younger than most of the other beeks by a couple decades. 

I'm also hoping to run some foundationless frames and the less-than a deep height of the frames lends itself to better strength of the drawn comb for first extraction. 

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2015, 11:00:20 am »
>...and lifting a ten isn't hard for me as I'm younger than most of the other beeks by a couple decades. 

For now...
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Offline OldMech

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2015, 02:01:20 am »

   I can still carry a railroad cross tie on my shoulder and place it where the wife is pointing. I am/have been a mechanic all my life, so have a good grip, but lifting a deep filled with honey off a stack of five using the routed hand holds is a rough row to hoe. I wont be attempting that alone ever again.
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Offline hjon71

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2015, 04:47:26 am »
I can physically handle a full 10 frame deep. But after doing it once, I wonder why anyone would choose to continue to do so.
I may move to 8 frame soon just for the sake of taking the "work" out of my hobby.

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Offline Foxhound

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2015, 08:36:23 am »
As far as pricing goes, the 8-frame equipment does not save much money compared to 10-frame. All the equipment is about the same price as 10-frame, but you may buy less frames. It may end up costing you more because you will have to buy additional boxes to make up for the loss of space in each box.

Offline little john

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2015, 08:56:37 am »
To save weight - and your back - an alternative approach to using less frames per box or reducing frame depth is to use two half-width boxes of whatever depth frames you already have, as done by Mike Palmer, albeit he runs those as nuc boxes.
 
It's a system I've decided to move over to, primarily for nuc production - but plan on converting all my boxes to half-width eventually - except those used at the bottom of the stack.

LJ
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Offline Acebird

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2015, 08:59:37 am »
If it is a hobby then 8 frame.  I even do all mediums and if it is a business then 10 frames and hire the young.
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Offline little john

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Re: 8 frame or 10 frame??
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2015, 11:11:10 am »
If you're running a business - then you really need to take into account Health and Safety legislation. I haven't a clue what the situation is over there in the States, but in the UK employers are very exposed to claims being made against them, or even face prosecution.

I just pulled this from a firm of Solicitors who deal with injury claims. They use the following diagram as a guide to what's considered 'reasonable' - there are 2 columns of weights: one for when the load is being held close to the body, the other when the load must be grasped away from the body - but they go on to say that simple adherence to the weight limits themselves isn't a sufficient defence in law.



They go on to say:
Quote
Lifting a load within the guideline maximum weight limits does not make the load 'safe'

The weight of the load is not the only factor to be taken into account when assessing whether a load is 'safe' for an employee to lift at work. The guidelines assume that the manual handling is taking place in reasonable working conditions with a load that is easily grasped with both hands by a reasonably fit, well-trained individual. The guidelines also make it clear that weights may need to be reduced below the guideline weights for various factors such as if the activity involves twisting or bending, is being carried out in a confined space or the activity is being repeated.


As you can see - the onus is upon the employer to ensure that employees don't injure themselves. It would certainly be worth checking-up on your own legislation - maybe it's different from State to State ? - as one permanent injury to an employee could well put you out of business, if your insurance was considered void due to negligence.

LJ
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