Fermentation?

[The15thMember]

My mom is rearranging the pantry, and she found a half gallon jar of last year's honey which had expanded and leaked.  It's kind of foamy, but it doesn't really smell off.  I ran it through the refractometer, and it was at 18.75% water content, which is definitely a little high.  Do you think it's fermented?  Is it safe to taste it?  If it's fermented, anything I can do with it, other than make mead? 

[gww]

My opinion is that I would slap a piece of saran wrap on it and pull off the foam and see what is below it.  I believe it will not hurt you to eat.  If it taste bad then don't eat it.  If you are worried, it will not keep and don't want mead, cook with it as a substitute for sugar.  It will take more honey then sugar to come to the same sweetness.  If it is still tasty, it will probably stay that way but if worried and wanting to cook with it, put in smaller jars and freeze and take out when needed. 
I have pulled off foam not quit as bad on perfectly good honey though I have never had any expand and come out of a jar.
I am no expert and an just giving my opinion based on the experiences I have up to this point.  take my advice in that fashion and I hope it helps.
Cheers
gww 

[Ben Framed]

I think gwws' advice is good solid advice. If it taste good and you are still concerned you can bring it up to temperature in order to kill any yeast which may be present that aids in fermentation. This may work as well. I am no expert here and am speaking second hand. If I remember correctly if you hit the correct temperature range just right, you will still retain the natural enzymes so sought after in raw honey. I think gwws' method is the most sure bet. If I had been down the other road with experience, I might be able to say more there.

May I ask what was your method of storing?

[The15thMember]

My opinion is that I would slap a piece of saran wrap on it and pull off the foam and see what is below it.  I believe it will not hurt you to eat.  If it taste bad then don't eat it.  If you are worried, it will not keep and don't want mead, cook with it as a substitute for sugar.  It will take more honey then sugar to come to the same sweetness.  If it is still tasty, it will probably stay that way but if worried and wanting to cook with it, put in smaller jars and freeze and take out when needed. 
I have pulled off foam not quit as bad on perfectly good honey though I have never had any expand and come out of a jar.
I am no expert and an just giving my opinion based on the experiences I have up to this point.  take my advice in that fashion and I hope it helps.
Cheers
gww 

Thanks, I'll spoon of the foam and see if it seems good underneath.   

I think gwws' advice is good solid advice. If it taste good and you are still concerned you can bring it up to temperature in order to kill any yeast which may be present that aids in fermentation. This may work as well. I am no expert here and am speaking second hand. But it you hit the correct temperature range just right, you will still retaining the natural enzymes so sought after in raw honey. I think gwws' method is the most sure bet. If I had been down the other road with experience, I might be able to say more there.

May I ask what was your method of storing?

Thanks, Phillip.  I just had it in the pantry in mason jars.  We got some new shelves in another part of the house, and Mom is moving all the honey to the new shelves to free up some room in the pantry.

So it seems like what you guys are saying is that it's got some yeast activity, even if it's not bad yet, but if I don't arrest the yeast somehow, by freezing or heating, it could potentially get worse.  I'll take to my Mom and see if she'd rather have the jar in the freezer or if I should heat it instead.       

[Ben Framed]

I am not saying it is fermenting because I do not know. I do not think Gww was saying it is fermenting either. He said put a piece of saran wrap pulling the foam off and see. etc.

But I am saying if it is beginning to ferment yet still taste good, you may be able to stop fermentation now by even another avenue, heating.  I am going from second hand information. Mr Binnie states that honey will not ferment at a temperature below 50 something. I can't remember the exact number. 

[The15thMember]

That saran wrap thing worked like a charm, gww!  I spooned off some more of the honey on the top too and then dipped a spoon deep into the jar and gave it a taste.  Definitely a little yeasty, not fit for eating in the state it's in.    It's a half gallon, and I'd rather not waste it if I don't have to.  Does anyone know if I heat it to kill the yeast, will the alcohol flavor go away, or at least get better?  I'm thinking perhaps we could still use it for cooking, but I don't want the honey flavor to affect any baked goods too much.   

[gww]

Just me but I would just cook something with it as it is and see if you taste any offness.  During cooking, the alcohol will be the first thing to disappear.  How sweet it makes stuff will depend on how much sugar was eaten by the yeast.  If what you cook taste yeasty, I have no ideals.  I believe heating might kill the yeast but am not sure it would make a yeast taste that is already there to go away.  I think most yeast can be killed at a little over 110 f.
I do not have experience with your situation and am just giving my thoughts as if it were me facing it.
Hope this helps more then hurts.
Cheers
gww

[Ben Framed]

Member from my understanding you can not reverse the taste once it has begun, only stop further progress. In that case I still advise following gwws advise. Sounds like the best and easiest Avenue to me.

[cao]

I have had that happen to some of my honey before.  And you have already received some good advise.  Heat will kill the yeast to stop the fermentation so will freezing.  As I see it you can either eat it as is(some like that flavor), cook with it, make mead with it or feed it back to your bees for their winter stores.

[gww]

cao

with it or feed it back to your bees for their winter stores.

Wish I would have thought of that.  Glad you responded.
Cheers
gww

[Ben Framed]

Cao you may be right but I?m not sure the lower temps will (kill) the yeast in honey, only stop the fermentation while the temps are low? I am wondering if the fermentation will resume once the temperature once again rises since honey does not freeze solid; rather its viscosity increases.  I read, in water,  freezing will kill a lot of the yeast cells and the ones that survive will be severely weakened. But since honey does not freeze solid like water I am wondering?

[The15thMember]

I have had that happen to some of my honey before.  And you have already received some good advise.  Heat will kill the yeast to stop the fermentation so will freezing.  As I see it you can either eat it as is(some like that flavor), cook with it, make mead with it or feed it back to your bees for their winter stores.

Cao you may be right but I?m not sure the lower temps will (kill) the yeast in honey, only stop the fermentation while the temps are low? I am wondering if the fermentation will resume once the temperature once again rises since honey does not freeze solid; rather its viscosity increases.  I read, in water,  freezing will kill a lot of the yeast cells and the ones that survive will be severely weakened. But since honey does not freeze solid like water I am wondering?

That was my question.  Also is it safe to feed it back to the bees?  I've have fermented frames from a beetle infestation make a small colony sick.  Perhaps not the same type of yeast, but still. . . . 

[Beeboy01]

I've had that problem with some of my honey and found that putting it in the oven at it's lowest setting which is 170 degrees till hot to the touch will kill any yeast. It is a way to pasteurize the honey without destroying it's flavor. Just make sure it is on a cookie sheet or shallow pan because the heating will cause it to foam and overflow.
  I've feed some back to the bees by putting the container out by the hives with no problems but I wouldn't place fermented honey directly into the hives. 

[cao]

I haven't noticed a problem with feeding the fermented honey back to the hives.  Bees have to deal with all sorts of honey conditions that they store, from crystalized to honey that ferments in the comb.  I think that some of the florida beeks were talking about cabbage palm honey running about 20% water and having to dry it.  If it is left in the hive, won't it ferment and the bees still eat it?  Like everything, too much of a good thing will kill you.  I wouldn't want that feed to be the only thing a hive has.  But as additional support food, I don't see where it will hurt.

[Ben Framed]

For safety reasons I would be extremely reluctant to heat honey inside an oven. Pure honey can catch fire. ... Honey has sugar, which is fuel for a fire and it can burn. Wouldn't it be safer to place on top where the temperature can be constantly monitored?

[Ben Framed]

I have another question. For the folks in Florida with cabbage palm honey. We know the bees will cap it at a level a little to high in water volume. But we also know that when this capped honey is taken off for processing, we can lower the moisture count by different methods as mentioned, fans, dehumidifiers etc while still capped . If we were to leave the hight moisture content capped honey for an extended period of time would not the bees do the same thing there in the hive, naturally lowering the moisture content until it will be a good product for them as well? Before it has the chance to ferment? This theory might be wrong but I have never heard a beekeeper say they pulled fermented honey unless it was slimmed by SHB?

[The15thMember]

I've had that problem with some of my honey and found that putting it in the oven at it's lowest setting which is 170 degrees till hot to the touch will kill any yeast. It is a way to pasteurize the honey without destroying it's flavor. Just make sure it is on a cookie sheet or shallow pan because the heating will cause it to foam and overflow.
  I've feed some back to the bees by putting the container out by the hives with no problems but I wouldn't place fermented honey directly into the hives. 

For safety reasons I would be extremely reluctant to heat honey inside an oven. Pure honey can catch fire. ... Honey has sugar, which is fuel for a fire and it can burn. Wouldn't it be safer to place on top where the temperature can be constantly monitored?

I was doing some looking at the temps and from what I've seen, anything over 104F will destroy the enzymes in the honey and begin to degrade its quality.  Honey's flash point is about 199F, so I don't see that 170F would be a fire risk, and 170F is also the temp at which alcohol begins to burn off.  Commercial honey is usually pasteurized at 160F, so I don't doubt this would kill any yeast, but I have some doubts about it not altering the flavor.   

I haven't noticed a problem with feeding the fermented honey back to the hives.  Bees have to deal with all sorts of honey conditions that they store, from crystalized to honey that ferments in the comb.  I think that some of the florida beeks were talking about cabbage palm honey running about 20% water and having to dry it.  If it is left in the hive, won't it ferment and the bees still eat it?  Like everything, too much of a good thing will kill you.  I wouldn't want that feed to be the only thing a hive has.  But as additional support food, I don't see where it will hurt.

I have another question. For the folks in Florida with cabbage palm honey. We know the bees will cap it at a level a little to high in water volume. But we also know that when this capped honey is taken off for processing, we can lower the moisture count by different methods as mentioned, fans, dehumidifiers etc while still capped . If we were to leave the hight moisture content capped honey for an extended period of time would not the bees do the same thing there in the hive, naturally lowering the moisture content until it will be a good product for them as well? Before it has the chance to ferment? This theory might be wrong but I have never heard a beekeeper say they pulled fermented honey unless it was slimmed by SHB?

I guess the question is: can the bees gut deal with the yeasts and the alcohol at a certain level?  I'm sure a little bit of fermentation in a strong hive wouldn't hurt them, but if it's just another difficulty for them to get over, I'd almost rather just dump this stuff down the drain. 

[TheHoneyPump]

Lots of good advice. Summarizing your options:
Option 1) Use it in cooking. Think BBQs, meat sauces, stir fry, wings, jerk seasonings, .., those sorts of things.
- Put in smaller containers and freeze it. Cold stops the process. Use up in foods.
Option 2) Make mead. Lookup some recipes, dilute, add some more yeast, and wait. Mead may be tricky as you do not know the starting point because it is already partway along.
Option 3) Feed to livestock.  Do you have pigs? Mix it into their slop. Gets used and no waste ;)
Option 4) Dump out. Take out into the back bush somewhere and dump it. The various wildlife feed on and take care of it.
What not to do. Do not heat it. The off taste will get stronger. Do not feed it to your bees for winter. Winter stores need to be the best feed not scraps. To remotely consider as feed, it would be diluted with water then open (rob) fed in the Spring.
Personally, over here it would be option 1 or 4.
If there is honey left over in the pantry then either:  the cook needs a good talking too about using too much sugar and instructed to be using honey. Or if just too much volume then sell or give away. A jar of honey always sweetens relationships :)

[Ben Framed]

All good stuff from each member, and a very interesting topic. I am sorry it has developed at your expense Member. It may make you feel better to know that this can happen to even the most experienced beekeeper. It seems lately I have mentioned Bob Binnie regularly. Once again I am headed in that direction. He uploaded a video a while back, showing one of his warehouses with numerous 55 gallons of honey. He did not hide the fact, but openly shared a similar problem of fermenting honey in one or some of these 55 gallon drums. I for one though it was very honest and thoughtful to share such gloomy information, which may help beekeepers from falling into this same type situation. In this video he discussed some of the questions you have here along with some similar thoughts relayed to you here. Though this honey was not some of his own stock but purchased from another. Even still he was very polite and defensive of the supplier. Check it out if you have the time.

[The15thMember]

I was doing some more looking, and I found a good article from HoneyBeeSuite that covers the basics of this topic pretty well. 
https://www.honeybeesuite.com/uncapped-honey-fermenting-in-the-comb/

All good stuff and a very interesting topic. I am sorry it has developed at your expense Member. It may make you feel better to know that this can happen to even the most experienced beekeeper. It seems lately I have mentioned Bob Binnie regularly. Once again I am headed in that direction. He uploaded a video a while back, showing one of his warehouses with numerous 55 gallons of honey. He did not hide the fact, but openly shared a similar problem of fermenting honey in one or some of these 55 gallon drums. I for one though it was very honest and thoughtful to share such gloomy information, which may help beekeepers from falling into this same type situation. In this video he discussed some of the questions you have here along with some similar thoughts relayed to you here. Though this honey was not some of his own stock but purchased from another. Even still he was very polite and defensive of the supplier. Check it out if you have the time.

I'll see if I can find that video, Bob Binnie always has great advice.  While it is unfortunate, it's yet another opportunity to learn, which I am always grateful for. 

Lots of good advice. Summarizing your options:
Option 1) Use it in cooking. Think BBQs, meat sauces, stir fry, wings, jerk seasonings, .., those sorts of things.
- Put in smaller containers and freeze it. Cold stops the process. Use up in foods.
Option 2) Make mead. Lookup some recipes, dilute, add some more yeast, and wait. Mead may be tricky as you do not know the starting point because it is already partway along.
Option 3) Feed to livestock.  Do you have pigs? Mix it into their slop. Gets used and no waste ;)
Option 4) Dump out. Take out into the back bush somewhere and dump it. The various wildlife feed on and take care of it.
What not to do. Do not heat it. The off taste will get stronger. Do not feed it to your bees for winter. Winter stores need to be the best feed not scraps. To remotely consider as feed, it would be diluted with water then open (rob) fed in the Spring.
Personally, over here it would be option 1 or 4.
If there is honey left over in the pantry then either:  the cook needs a good talking too about using too much sugar and instructed to be using honey. Or if just too much volume then sell or give away. A jar of honey always sweetens relationships :)

HP, as always, helpful at cutting right to the chase. Options 2 and 3 are out.  My sister wants to get pigs so bad, but none at the moment unfortunately, and the mead just seems like a senseless investment in equipment, as neither I nor my adult sister drinks alcohol, and my parents have never had mead and so don't know if they'd really like it or not.  As far as option 1, my mom is concerned about cooking or baking with this honey, as she's worried the weird flavor of the honey will affect the quality of the food.  Anyone have experience cooking with fermented honey that could set her mind at ease?  If not, then it'll probably be option 4.  At least the wild can get some use from it if I dump it somewhere on the ground as opposed to down the drain.       

[Ben Framed]

>my mom is concerned about cooking or baking with this honey, as she's worried the weird flavor of the honey will affect the quality of the food.

Just a thought, Perhaps she could add in recipes which call for cooking sherry?

[Ben Framed]

I'll see if I can find that video, Bob Binnie always has great advice.  While it is unfortunate, it's yet another opportunity to learn, which I am always grateful for. 

You won't have to. I found it for you. He discusses many outlooks including cold, heat, taste of honey, etc. enjoy!

https://youtu.be/qAat1XQ-yiI

[The15thMember]

I'll see if I can find that video, Bob Binnie always has great advice.  While it is unfortunate, it's yet another opportunity to learn, which I am always grateful for. 

You won't have to. I found it for you. He discusses many outlooks including cold, heat, taste of honey, etc. enjoy!

https://youtu.be/qAat1XQ-yiI

Thanks!  I'll take a look at that.

>my mom is concerned about cooking or baking with this honey, as she's worried the weird flavor of the honey will affect the quality of the food.

Just a thought, Perhaps she could add in recipes which call for cooking sherry?

To be honest, she doesn't cook with alcohol hardly at all, just beer very occasionally. 

[merryn]

Seeing as though it is already fermenting why not add organic whole peeled garlic cloves and get double the goodness of the garlic and honey.

[The15thMember]

Seeing as though it is already fermenting why not add organic whole peeled garlic cloves and get double the goodness of the garlic and honey.

I've never heard of this before, so I gave it a Google.  It looks interesting.  My concern is that most people make this with normal honey.  Would there be any concerns about the safety or intensity of the fermentation process if I used honey that is already fermented? 

[merryn]

I am by no means an expert but if you add garlic it would definitely ferment in the honey but I am not sure if it would kick off honey fermentation further or indeed, again.   As with anything try a small jar and see how it tastes after a couple of weeks.

[TheHoneyPump]

FYI. When cooking with ingredients that have alcohol, note that there is no alcohol in the finished dish.  The alcohol vaporizes and is gone during cooking.  Alcohol has a vapour temperature of roughly 170F.  Only the flavours of the ingredient remain; and those flavours are substantially changed in cooking process.
As mentioned.  For cooking with your questionable bucket. Think MEATS.  Marinades, rubs, baked on glazes/basting, BBQ sauces, gravies, etc.
Otherwise just dump it out in the wild and move on. 

[The15thMember]

My mom tried baking honey wheat bread with the fermented honey and it tasted totally normal, so we'll probably freeze the honey and use it up in bread.  She is also planning on trying a new BBQ sauce that uses a decent amount of honey, as most of her go-to meat add-ons don't use enough to make a significant dent.  Thanks for all the help, everyone.  Here's a glory shot of the bread for your trouble. 

[Ben Framed]

FYI. When cooking with ingredients that have alcohol, note that there is no alcohol in the finished dish.  The alcohol vaporizes and is gone during cooking.  Alcohol has a vapour temperature of roughly 170F.  Only the flavours of the ingredient remain; and those flavours are substantially changed in cooking process.
As mentioned.  For cooking with your questionable bucket. Think MEATS.  Marinades, rubs, baked on glazes/basting, BBQ sauces, gravies, etc.
Otherwise just dump it out in the wild and move on. 

I like your good advice here Mr HoneyPump, especially, "Think MEATS.  Marinades, rubs, baked on glazes/basting, BBQ sauces, gravies, etc."   Good stuff from you as usual!

The15thMember
My mom tried baking honey wheat bread with the fermented honey and it tasted totally normal, so we'll probably freeze the honey and use it up in bread.  She is also planning on trying a new BBQ sauce that uses a decent amount of honey, as most of her go-to meat add-ons don't use enough to make a significant dent.  Thanks for all the help, everyone.  Here's a glory shot of the bread for your trouble. 

Glad y'all found a suitable use for this Reagan. None of us want to lose or see honey wasted... As our friends from England might say "Good Show". 

[salvo]

Hi Folks, 15,

I'd go with *use it*. Cook with it, use as *raw ingredient* for sauce/sweetener, etc.

I make *jun* with it. You like green tea. Your yeast will make your Scobie. Add it to green tea. Slice in some raw ginger. Wait a week or so. Cool it. Drink it. Be sure to keep your teeth clenched to strain out the bits and stiff slimy stuff. Excellent probiotic, refreshing drink. Better yet, draw from the bottom.

My wife won't drink it. I've drunk worse,... much worse. This stuff is good and refreshing.

I recently came off 21 days of antibiotics for Lyme. It knocks heck out of your good gut bacteria. I'm eating a lot of *fermented stuff*.

https://nourishedkitchen.com/how-to-make-jun-tea/

https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/food-features/fermented-honey/

Sal

[The15thMember]

Seeing as though it is already fermenting why not add organic whole peeled garlic cloves and get double the goodness of the garlic and honey.

I've never heard of this before, so I gave it a Google.  It looks interesting.  My concern is that most people make this with normal honey.  Would there be any concerns about the safety or intensity of the fermentation process if I used honey that is already fermented? 

I am by no means an expert but if you add garlic it would definitely ferment in the honey but I am not sure if it would kick off honey fermentation further or indeed, again.   As with anything try a small jar and see how it tastes after a couple of weeks.

So I wanted to give a quick update to this thread.  I found a jar of honey on the shelf just before Thanksgiving which was only very slightly fermented, so I decided to give the honey garlic a try.  I did some looking about it online and found this recipe (if you can call it that, it's extremely easy to make).  https://www.growforagecookferment.com/fermented-honey-garlic/

I only made a half pint because I wasn't sure how we'd like it.  (I have it sitting in a little dish in case the fermentation gets a little out of hand and bubbles out, which it did once or twice, but it seems to have stabilized now.)  About a week ago we gave it a taste and it is so good!  It makes the garlic nice and sweet so you can just eat it straight up, and the garlic-y honey is so rich and savory, it would be great in a marinade of some sort.
       
     

[.30WCF]

I want some garlic honey. That would be like Frank?s Red Sauce. I?d put that ?


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[The15thMember]

I want some garlic honey. That would be like Frank?s Red Sauce. I?d put that ?

Seriously, give it a try.  You don't need fermented honey to do it; normal raw honey will work just as well.  It just may take a little longer for the yeasts to get active.