Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Not good news  (Read 2801 times)

Offline BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13494
  • Gender: Male
Not good news
« on: March 12, 2023, 02:39:54 pm »

It's not exactly news that bee populations have been suffering, especially those that live in or nearby human-populated areas.
But according to a new long-term study, published in the journal Current Biology, even pollinators that live in remote, human-free forests, away from humans and aren't directly exposed to harmful behaviors like chemical pesticide use and habitat destruction, are disappearing in pretty horrifying numbers ? yet another troubling sign that our much-needed pollinators are disappearing at alarming rates.
Bees, as The Bee Conservancy puts it, "lie at the heart of our survival." Human agricultural processes rely on these precious pollinators, which play a critical role in growing the crops that we and our livestock eat; they play a similarly critical role in natural food systems, too.
In short, if we lose bees, we lose a lot of plants, which means that we lose a lot of animals, habitats, and crops in turn. Not good.
The 15-year study, which concluded last year, closely tracked bee and butterfly populations in three different remote, forested areas in northern Georgia's Oconee National Forest.
After analyzing the data, the researchers were able to conclude that roughly 62.5 percent of the original bee population was lost, while butterfly populations shrank by a similarly shocking 57.6 percent.
The number of bee species dropped too, with the area losing 39 percent of its species biodiversity.
"Our results suggest," the study's authors warn, "that sharp declines in pollinators may not be limited to areas experiencing direct anthropogenic disturbances."
Pollination Assassination
Though there's no clear-cut explanation for why these remote populations are shrinking, the researchers did present a few hypotheticals. For instance, the presence of invasive species, notably an invasive wood-nesting ant, may be damaging to the area's carpenter bee population.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, the researchers listed "increasing minimum temperatures" ? in other words, climate change ? as the other likely culprit for the pollinators' troubling plight. And considering that we don't exactly have that problem under control, it's hard to see a scenario where the bees and butterflies of the region recover in significant numbers, at least not in the short term.
It is worth noting that above-ground nesting bees fared worse than below-ground nesters, though all populations, as noted by the researchers, showed a sharp decline.
Again, it's not surprising news ? but for the worst of reasons.
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Online Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12410
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Not good news
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2023, 02:46:43 pm »
Good post Jim.  Thanks for the information.
👍🏻

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Bill Murray

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Not good news
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2023, 03:34:41 pm »
Well just my opinion. If anybody with any clout was really serious about the health of honeybees and other pollinators
1) honeybees couldn?t be moved from original yards, due to spillover and spillback of pathogens/ parasites, and out competing local species.

2) No move of bumblebees. Same reason.

Spillover/spillback has been well documented for over 20 years.

3) everyone would treat at the same time with the same product, Or there would be no treatments of any kind for varroa.

4) All global moving of Honey/Bumblebees would be terminated. Just look how easily the COVID spread.

5) Outlaw lawncutting, pesticides detrimental to pollinators, and do something (???)  about the loss of habitats for local species.

Again just my opinion Im not a scientist or the king.

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Not good news
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2023, 05:05:20 pm »
Wow, that's terrible.  :sad:
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline max2

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1187
  • Gender: Male
Re: Not good news
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2023, 02:13:43 am »
Hi Jim,
would you have a link for the article?
thanks
max

Online Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12410
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Not good news
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2023, 02:27:21 am »
Max try this one.

Phillip

BAD NEWS: BEES ARE DYING AT A SHOCKING RATE
THIS ISN'T GOOD AT ALL.

https://futurism.com/the-byte/bees-dying-shocking-rate
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Not good news
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2023, 06:53:37 am »
Bees survived THE ice age and several mini ice ages.  Luckily for us we had a lot of global warming after those.  The climate changes in the past have been extreme.  No extreme climate change is taking place right now.  Since plants and pollinators are closely tied together, maybe we should consider that many plants are on the verge of CO2 dearth.  If CO2 drops those plants will die and they are already not doing as well as they have in the past when we had more CO2.  We should try to triple the amount of CO2 if we can.  It would do the plants, and therefore the pollinators a lot of good.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13494
  • Gender: Male
Re: Not good news
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2023, 08:12:00 am »
Thanks Ben, that is the correct link.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline max2

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1187
  • Gender: Male
Re: Not good news
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2023, 08:26:50 am »
Bees survived THE ice age and several mini ice ages.  Luckily for us we had a lot of global warming after those.  The climate changes in the past have been extreme.  No extreme climate change is taking place right now.  Since plants and pollinators are closely tied together, maybe we should consider that many plants are on the verge of CO2 dearth.  If CO2 drops those plants will die and they are already not doing as well as they have in the past when we had more CO2.  We should try to triple the amount of CO2 if we can.  It would do the plants, and therefore the pollinators a lot of good.
Hi Michael,
our CO 2 level at the moment on planet earth is around 420ppm.
Untill the the mid 1800's ( I was not around) it was around 280ppm and , so i understand, plants and insects did quite well.
How would " triple", as you suggest, do the plants, insects, us...and good?

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8110
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Not good news
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2023, 08:32:35 am »
We all know extreme weather can affect the survival of a colony.  Only some of us know what is causing the extreme weather or are willing to own up to it.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Not good news
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2023, 08:47:39 am »
Try looking up greenhouses pumping in CO2.  at 0.12% plants thrive.  At .04% (the actual percentage currently) they do not thrive, but they do survive.  Much experimentation has gone into this.  This is what we call "actual Science".
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Not good news
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2023, 11:13:39 am »
Wow, that's terrible.  :sad:

Member Im not sure if your response was to the Original Post or to Bills' post. But Bills' reply makes sense to me as the best shot, though it might not be Constitutional for we in America... :shocked:  :grin: For our friends in other countries? I do not know. 

Phillip
Yeah, I was referring to Jim's original post, particularly the percent reduction is what struck me.  Bill's reply isn't terrible, although it is rather tyrannical.  :cheesy:
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Online Kathyp

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 20363
  • Gender: Female
Re: Not good news
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2023, 11:57:19 am »
I'll take the contrarian seat, as usual. :grin:

This is one study in one area.  Additionally, we don't know if this kind of thing is cyclical.  When everyone panicked about CCD, we found 100+ year old reports of the same kind of thing happening before. 

Everybody and their mother is out to "save the bees".  I have a neighbor (relative term) that put 40 hives on his place last year and plans to double that this year.  We are a small town and around us, much is forested.  Other than wildflowers in spring and gardens, there's not a lot of crop diversity or availability for pollinators.  In my little space, I found that about 7 hives did well and gave me excess honey.
Now in our town area, we have hives all over the place and several are large endeavors.  More bees are great until you are either not managing them, or you have pushed out other pollinators.  I used to have several types of bees here in addition to my honeybees.  Last year, not so many.  After 80 honeybee hives down the way?  The other pollinators won't have much of a chance. 

Is there a natural increase and decrease in pollinators?  Do they regulate their own numbers according to some thing of which we are not aware?  We don't have enough data over a long enough period to know that.

The numbers might be correct, but the reasons may or may not be earth shattering  :wink:

Missed you guys...Lol

Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Online Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12410
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Not good news
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2023, 12:01:39 pm »
We missed you Kathy!

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Not good news
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2023, 12:22:15 pm »
I'll take the contrarian seat, as usual. :grin:

This is one study in one area.  Additionally, we don't know if this kind of thing is cyclical.  When everyone panicked about CCD, we found 100+ year old reports of the same kind of thing happening before. 

Everybody and their mother is out to "save the bees".  I have a neighbor (relative term) that put 40 hives on his place last year and plans to double that this year.  We are a small town and around us, much is forested.  Other than wildflowers in spring and gardens, there's not a lot of crop diversity or availability for pollinators.  In my little space, I found that about 7 hives did well and gave me excess honey.
Now in our town area, we have hives all over the place and several are large endeavors.  More bees are great until you are either not managing them, or you have pushed out other pollinators.  I used to have several types of bees here in addition to my honeybees.  Last year, not so many.  After 80 honeybee hives down the way?  The other pollinators won't have much of a chance. 

Is there a natural increase and decrease in pollinators?  Do they regulate their own numbers according to some thing of which we are not aware?  We don't have enough data over a long enough period to know that.

The numbers might be correct, but the reasons may or may not be earth shattering  :wink:

Missed you guys...Lol
To me the loss in biodiversity is more concerning than the loss in the number of individuals.  As you say, our baseline data on insect populations is sketchy at best.  So much of the "save the bees" campaign is misdirected in my opinion.  Making our lawns and gardens safe for pollinators, and really all insects, is much more beneficial for both us and the environment at large than haphazardly and irresponsibly putting honey bees hives everywhere.  Keeping bees is no more or less environmentally friendly than keeping any other livestock, assuming that both the bees and the other livestock are being managed in a way that is responsible.           
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Online Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12410
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Not good news
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2023, 01:29:28 pm »
"Making our lawns and gardens safe for pollinators, and really all insects, is much more beneficial for both us and the environment"

Reagan, I will add crops to lawns and gardens as well, as I credit that to you, as I feel like that was your intention also.. If not please correct me my friend.

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Not good news
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2023, 02:28:41 pm »
"Making our lawns and gardens safe for pollinators, and really all insects, is much more beneficial for both us and the environment"

Reagan, I will add crops to lawns and gardens as well, as I credit that to you, as I feel like that was your intention also.. If not please correct me my friend.

Phillip
Certainly, although big ag is a whole other conversation really. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline beesnweeds

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 235
  • Gender: Male
Re: Not good news
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2023, 06:50:41 pm »
Its not just bees all insects are in decline.  Mostly due to the effort to save the environment.  Laws forcing us to use and accept new products like LED lights are doing way more harm than good without having been tested first.  They attract, disorient, and kill insects far more than traditional bulbs.  If one LED is a fraction of the cost to power then traditional light bulbs, then why not add extra?  Homes and businesses are adding blinding LED lights like crazy.  I doubt anything will be done about it. 
 
Worse news:
https://www.ceh.ac.uk/press/LED-streetlights-reduce-insect-populations-50-percent


Everyone loves a worker.... until its laying.

Online Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12410
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Not good news
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2023, 08:11:04 pm »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline max2

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1187
  • Gender: Male
Re: Not good news
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2023, 05:19:12 am »
Try looking up greenhouses pumping in CO2.  at 0.12% plants thrive.  At .04% (the actual percentage currently) they do not thrive, but they do survive.  Much experimentation has gone into this.  This is what we call "actual Science".
Michael, the planet is NOT a greenhouse. Not yet.
If CO2 would double we would have massive increases in temperatures leading to many deaths...ice melting...glacier disapearing even faster...sea levels rising.
Not the type of scenario i would wish on to my grandchildren

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Not good news
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2023, 06:36:39 am »
>If CO2 would double we would have massive increases in temperatures leading to many deaths...ice melting...glacier disapearing even faster...sea levels rising.

Simply not true.  CO2 level has been much higher than that many times in the past.  Plus, CO2 is a very weak greenhouse gas.  Whenever they try to make this case they ignore the biggest greenhouse gas by far, water vapor.  It goes something like this, "other than water vapor, CO2 is..."  which discounts everything that follows.  The fact is we can't make any significant difference in CO2, but if we could, we should increase it.

CO2 is a trace gas (0.04% of the atmosphere) upon which all life on this planet is dependent.  It's not even close to 0.1% let alone 1%.  Last time it went down, (which it does periodically)  it was near the death of all plants.  The idea that it is a "pollutant" is beyond ludicrous.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline max2

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1187
  • Gender: Male
Re: Not good news
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2023, 08:16:45 am »
>If CO2 would double we would have massive increases in temperatures leading to many deaths...ice melting...glacier disapearing even faster...sea levels rising.

Simply not true.  CO2 level has been much higher than that many times in the past.  Plus, CO2 is a very weak greenhouse gas.  Whenever they try to make this case they ignore the biggest greenhouse gas by far, water vapor.  It goes something like this, "other than water vapor, CO2 is..."  which discounts everything that follows.  The fact is we can't make any significant difference in CO2, but if we could, we should increase it.

CO2 is a trace gas (0.04% of the atmosphere) upon which all life on this planet is dependent.  It's not even close to 0.1% let alone 1%.  Last time it went down, (which it does periodically)  it was near the death of all plants.  The idea that it is a "pollutant" is beyond ludicrous.

CO 2 is not poisonous....until you get too much of it. " 3  times" is too much - so science says.

I'm not sure when CO2 was higher in the past in the US.. here we can look back https://earth.org/data_visualization/a-brief-history-of-co2/

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Not good news
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2023, 12:33:25 pm »
They have done a lot of research on how much CO2 causes plants to thrive and no harm to humans.  The sweet spot is 0.12%  At 0.24% it does no harm, but doesn't do better than 0.12%.  If you want to stop the greenhouse effect you have to get rid of water vapor.  And surely we all know what a bad idea that is.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4426
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Not good news
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2023, 12:55:03 pm »
Honestly, one of the nails in the coffin for me about the whole CO2 thing was this image from NASA.

This is a satellite overlay from 2016 of the actual CO2 concentrations over the US, NOT an averaged-out global map.  You see, CO2 is heavier than O2 and N2, and it doesn't mix well in the atmosphere, so far from creating a blanket over the whole earth, CO2 actually just exists in high concentrations in pockets.  So using the laws of thermodynamics, which say that heat will flow toward cooler areas, the CO2 in the atmosphere can't possible be trapping heat, because there are huge holes in the "blanket".  Even supposing that CO2 does have a warming effect where it is concentrated, that heat will just flow out to cooler areas, with less CO2, which means it can't possible be warming the whole earth.   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Bill Murray

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Not good news
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2023, 07:15:26 pm »
Well this is just part of everything I have read on the subject since I was being told we would all freeze to death. I guess that was before global warming, then climate change. Ive just given up trying to follow the renaming and associated end of the world nonsense. There are things that contribute to global warming much more than co2 or methane. If it works graph include.
How about we work on the ones at the top of the list.

Offline Bill Murray

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 467
  • Gender: Male
Re: Not good news
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2023, 07:16:36 pm »
HA, Ha it worked.

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Not good news
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2023, 06:23:43 am »
You left out the hole in the ozone layer that was going to end us all.  Yes we were headed to an ice age in the 80s.  Acid rain was going to kill us in the 70s.  The ozone problem in the 90's.  Global warming (which never happened) in the early 2000 and now that it didn't warm up, it's climate change.  There has been extreme changes in the climate throughout history and prehistory.  Some, like the dust bowl, were even partially man made.  But the dust bowl was mostly caused by the assumption that climate doesn't change.  We had a decade or more of wet weather and when that ended we got a dust bowl because we assumed it would last forever and then we had decades of drought.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Occam

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 305
  • Gender: Male
Re: Not good news
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2023, 10:57:14 pm »
15 years while a good chunk of time for a human life is insignificant to the life of the planet regardless of whether you believe the earth has existed for millions of years or thousands. There is a constant flux of nature, the ebbs and flows the pendulum swings. While the drop my be significant over the last 15 even 50 years we can't say with certainty that we arent at a high point and therefore a drop to be expected much less be able to pin a cause on it to stop it. Even of we could stop it "science" is plagued today by people who don't ask whether we should do something, only whether we can, the assumption being that if we can and think it's good them it should be done. There are always unintended consequences, nobody can predict all scenarios to our actions.
Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity

Offline TheHoneyPump

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1389
  • Work Hard. Play Harder.
Re: Not good news
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2023, 12:34:47 pm »
I have said before, here on BM and everywhere the topic comes up. The honeybees are well looked after by the beekeeping industry.
The focus of the public and concern for the -save the pollinators. / save the bees- needs a complete paradigm shift to putting all that attention on the native species.  I have been saying this for 15 - 20 years.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.