When will the ignorant get smart

[Ben Framed]

ben

From this point on, If Biden were to nominate you, (and he could do worse, and probably would do worse), I would have to speak up!

You need not worry cause I am much too selfish to ever do any such job.  I have, the gods honest, best job in the world.  It is so good I feel guilty that every one is not in the same boat.  It is called retirement.  From the bottom of my heart, I hope you experience my job and get as much enjoyment out of it as I do.
Cheers
gww

Congratulation on you retirement gww. I have no doubt but that you have earned it and I'm happy to hear you are enjoying it! Thanks for the heart felt well wishes! I really appreciate it, even though we sit on separate sides of the debating table,,, (from time to time).... 

Cheers back to you,

Phillip

[Kathyp]

The point is that mistakes in oral arguments could happen with little foul as people are fallible even doing their best.

Of course they can.  It's just that that one was huge and one must wonder where her info came from.  I think it is fair to ask as their decisions seem to have the power of law.

There is no way to know what the outcome of banning abortion would be, but I don't think there are many places that would ban it anyway.  If some places do, there are other options.  Ending Roe would not ban abortions.  It would send the decisions about abortion back to the states where it should be.  Even many who like legal abortion think Roe is bad law.

In the early days, when abortion was legalized, there were few birth control options and they were not as reliable.  Now we have gazillions of options from short to long term and they are very reliable. If you don't want to get pregnant, you don't have to and you don't even have to give up sex although that is the sure way to not get pregnant.
  If killing a baby is morally wrong, then it is morally wrong.  That a woman or a family might be inconvenienced by a pregnancy, or might make a decision that caused her damage, is not a part of the calculation.  I can think of at least one person that if I had killed them my life would have been easier.  It's not legal so I didn't.  Why is it OK to kill a baby as a matter of convenience?

[Acebird]

First of all the religious zealots perceive birth control as abortion anyway.  If they succeed in changing the laws birth control will be next.
The irony is the religious zealots love the unborn baby but hate the child as it matures into adulthood.  If abortion is turned around there will be more of the hated to support through life.  There will more inmates to support.  And it goes without saying there will be much more poverty.  Now the next question is whether the impoverished will be allowed to vote.  That is a big one.
Without changing any laws this morality issue could be solved very easily.  If these religious zealots would simply adopt the unwanted babies and give them a good home the amount of terminate pregnancies would drastically reduce.  Then the only moral issue would be cases of life of mother vs. child and rape.
But as always "Christians" cry morality when it suits them.
We've been watching a series on Hulu "Handmaids Tail".  They have got the inconsistencies of organized religion nailed to a tee.

[Acebird]

If you don't want to get pregnant, you don't have to and you don't even have to give up sex although that is the sure way to not get pregnant.

So is becoming gay.

[Ben Framed]

Ben Framed Reply #45 on: December 10, 2021, 07:25:20 am ?

True or false? FDA says it now needs 75 years before releasing Pfizer COVID-19 data to the public. Apparently the FDA wishes to keep citizens ignorant of the facts? If this is true what is the big secrets?

So to answer your question Ace:  >When will the ignorant get smart?<
Answer: 75 years; maybe..

UPDATE:
It seems we will not have to wait 75 years after all thanks to a major court ruling.. 

Rutgers

Paramount Importance: Judge orders FDA to hasten release of Pfizer vaccine docs
By Jenna Greene
Jan 7, 2022
Score one for transparency.

"A federal judge in Texas on Thursday ordered the Food and Drug Administration to make public the data it relied on to license Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine, imposing a dramatically accelerated schedule that should result in the release of all information within about eight months.

That's roughly 75 years and four months faster than the FDA said it could take to complete a Freedom of Information Act request by a group of doctors and scientists seeking an estimated 450,000 pages of material about the vaccine."


A short list of many, whom it seems are now, rapidly changing their tunes ....  Coincidental?  You tell me....


https://news.yahoo.com/virginia-universities-lift-vaccine-mandates-160032107.html

https://m.republicworld.com/world-news/global-event-news/who-urges-nations-to-lift-travel-bans-and-not-mandate-proof-of-vaccination-for-entry-articleshow.html

https://www.kcentv.com/article/news/nation-world/starbucks-drops-vaccine-mandate-workers/507-dd43bddc-8392-4859-8ac8-46f342601d6a

https://goldenageofgaia.com/2022/01/19/england-ending-all-covid-passports-mask-mandates-work-restrictions/

https://www.esquireme.com/news/53683-mask-off-8-countries-that-have-removed-their-mask-mandates

[Kathyp]

First of all the religious zealots perceive birth control as abortion anyway.  If they succeed in changing the laws birth control will be next.
The irony is the religious zealots love the unborn baby but hate the child as it matures into adulthood.  If abortion is turned around there will be more of the hated to support through life.  There will more inmates to support.  And it goes without saying there will be much more poverty.  Now the next question is whether the impoverished will be allowed to vote.  That is a big one.
Without changing any laws this morality issue could be solved very easily.  If these religious zealots would simply adopt the unwanted babies and give them a good home the amount of terminate pregnancies would drastically reduce.  Then the only moral issue would be cases of life of mother vs. child and rape.
But as always "Christians" cry morality when it suits them.
We've been watching a series on Hulu "Handmaids Tail".  They have got the inconsistencies of organized religion nailed to a tee.

I know a lot of people who are Christians, but none fit your description.  Again, we must wonder where you get the info you use to form your opinions. 
I DO know a number of Christian families who have adopted.  My neighbors adopted 2 children.  I do not have stats, but if you can show that those who claim to be Christians adopt at a lower rate than others, I'd be interested in that info.  In fact, there are not enough infants available for all who would like to adopt.

There are still a few Catholics who don't like BC and many Muslims who won't use it.  I don't know of any Catholics who consider BC abortion though.  I think you are confusing birth control with using medications to end a pregnancy.  While the drugs might be the same, the result is not.

Poverty is not a disease.  Plenty of us have experienced it.  Poverty does not need to = crime.  That you think it does is interesting.  Also interesting that you think killing babies is an acceptable way to stop the things you think might happen.  We have had leaders in the world that thought that way.  It didn't end well. 

You don't seem to like Christians.  I don't know how you feel about other religions.  You might consider asking yourself what keeps a society together?

One of the foremost constitutional theorists of the founding generation, John Adams, observed, ?Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.?1 He wasn?t the only Founding Father to hold this view. Indeed, James Madison wrote that our Constitution requires ?sufficient virtue among men for self-government,? otherwise, ?nothing less than the chains of despotism can restrain them from destroying and devouring one another.?2

you have a choice and countries like Russia and China prove it.  You can have a shared moral cohesion which would be based on some kind of religious underpinning, or you can have a controlling government.  You don't get both and that's why Communist countries try to kill off any religious beliefs.  They will not share power over the people.  Having a shared basis does not mean that everyone has to believe the say or be of the same religion, but it does mean that a society has to have certain moral values that are open for debate.

You may not see the future you are pushing, but our kids and grandkids will...unfortunately. 

[Acebird]

Wow!  Have you forgotten that the Europeans left for America to get freedom from religion and the United States is based on separation of church and state?
United States is not based on religion it is based on freedom of religion including its non existence.

[BeeMaster2]

Ace,
You sure can twist things around. They left Europe to get away from religious persecution not religion. Many countries mandated one religion. If you did not follow, you were persecuted. Our founding fathers wanted to make sure we can serve any religion that we wanted. They never intended to have no religion in schools or government. They always prayed at the beginning of their meetings for god?s guidance.
Jim Altmiller

[Ben Framed]

Wow!  Have you forgotten that the Europeans left for America to get freedom from religion and the United States is based on separation of church and state?
United States is not based on religion it is based on freedom of religion including its non existence.

Ace,
You sure can twist things around. They left Europe to get away from religious persecution not religion. Many countries mandated one religion. If you did not follow, you were persecuted. Our founding fathers wanted to make sure we can serve any religion that we wanted. They never intended to have no religion in schools or government. They always prayed at the beginning of their meetings for god?s guidance.
Jim Altmiller

BeeMaster2
"Many countries mandated one religion. If you did not follow, you were persecuted. Our founding fathers wanted to make sure we can serve any religion that we wanted."

True and accurate, the primary (first) pilgrims/settlers/immigrants etc were from England. Seeking to be shed of not only religious tyranny but tyranny in any disguise. Immigrants from other European Countries came later and are still coming, not only from Europe, but from all over the world. I really doubt that there are many full blooded English Lineage folks here in America now, full blooded English descendants from those days. The founders were kind to include all citizens, joint heirs if you will, included in and under the protection of our Constitution. Including all rights and liberties, freedoms and privileges afforded by those founders through their faith, demonstrated and reflected through that document. Regardless of which, (quoting Ace), European country that person or persons family might immigrate from.

It is obvious, somewhere we as a Nation, dropped the ball in educating later immigrants of the value, and importance of that document. Apparently we have dropped the ball in educating our children, and immigrants of the founders and their families, who formed and raised that document. As history clearly points out, many and most were Christian?s whether Ace likes it or not. Whether he likes this country of not for that matter.

History of those people, their beliefs and sacrifices, hardships endured, along with their words of encouragement to (Us Even Today), To We The People. But sadly these historical facts are becoming more and more disregarded and disrespected, or hidden, ignored, or maybe even despised by many? Sad isn?t it.   

BeeMaster2
"They never intended to have no religion in schools or government. [/b]They always prayed at the beginning of their meetings for god?s guidance."

Very true Jim. Who knows, maybe many of the generation of Ace listened to the words of The Beetles song (Imagine) to many times; While experiencing Jo Jos California grass? Later becoming Professors in our Colleges and Institutions? Hard to imagine?

But the fact is, the school house and the church house was the one and same building. Serving as a school house during the week and a Sunday School and Church on Sunday. The two were inter-twined. Most, if not all of these Church/School buildings had a steeple on top with a Cross representing a Christian Church  on the very top of that same steeple for all to see. The children's handy work of school from the week was there for all to see (who attended) on Sunday and evidence of our Belief in God were visually seen in that very same building for the children to see throughout the week.

[Kathyp]

Wow!  Have you forgotten that the Europeans left for America to get freedom from religion and the United States is based on separation of church and state?
United States is not based on religion it is based on freedom of religion including its non existence.

Most of what you write is historically incorrect and the very words of the founders prove you wrong.   How you worship or if you choose not to worship has nothing to do with the foundation of the country or the need for that foundation. 

The foundation of this country is based on Judeo-Christian principles.  That's not a religion, but it is a set of standards and among those standards is personal choice.  Because we were designed to have the least amount of federal government possible and the most personal choice, there had to be a behavioral moderator.  That moderator has been shared moral standards and a constitution that is the law.  It is gone now because morality has become relative and the law is not followed by the federal government.  Relative standards are no standards. 
The only solution to what is now a crumbling society is government.  Government already ignores the existing laws and people are habituated to allowing them to do this.

This was what the founders warned about.  It is why Adams said that our system was only suitable for a moral and religious people. 
We did something unique in this country in that we trusted people to self-regulate based on a shared foundational belief system.  To that extent, we really were formed as a Christian nation understanding that Christianity is not a religion but that all Christian sects shared basic behavioral modifiers. 

Welcome to the Great Reset.  They played the long game and we didn't even see it coming even though they told us what they were doing.

[Acebird]

The foundation of this country is based on Judeo-Christian principles.

If that were true we wouldn't have massacred the Indians and stolen their land.  We wouldn't have owned slaves.  We wouldn't have killed our own people.  We wouldn't have entered into any wars.  And last but not least we wouldn't have a government with members that are predominantly liars, fornicators and cheats.
This country was formed from aristocratic Europeans who brought most of the problems of Europe to America.  The Indians lived by religious principles.  We don't and never have.

[Acebird]

the primary (first) pilgrims/settlers/immigrants etc were from England.

I guess we will forget about Christopher Columbus, the Spaniards, the French, and the Dutch.  Phil, you reading Kathy's history book?
Belief and Praying to a supreme being is not a Christian principal.  It takes an enormous investment to fund formal education.  Catholics and Jews had the wealth to take on such and endeavor.  When the country was formed it had no previsions for education.  And the way it was formed was based on the population being ignorant.  The population lived on subsistent farming so it was quite a hurdle to take children out of the fields to learn to read and write.  Once the power of education was realized it was a huge battle to give it up to the female sector of the population. (Another inequality, but common among organized religion vs. Christian principal.)
When the government took over education and created the public school system there was no religion associated with it.  And there still isn't today.  What religion would they pick in the first place?

[Kathyp]

If that were true we wouldn't have massacred the Indians and stolen their land.  We wouldn't have owned slaves.  We wouldn't have killed our own people.  We wouldn't have entered into any wars.  And last but not least we wouldn't have a government with members that are predominantly liars, fornicators and cheats.
This country was formed from aristocratic Europeans who brought most of the problems of Europe to America.  The Indians lived by religious principles.  We don't and never have.

There were social norms that were certainly not Christian.  That's a discussion for another time.  That you think the people who lived here before the Europeans came were all peaceful is cute.  Some were, many were not. they killed each other, stole land, and had slaves.  This was the state of the world at that time and the normal behavior of all peoples at that time.  Still is if they are left to themselves.

I guess we will forget about Christopher Columbus, the Spaniards, the French, and the Dutch.

Columbus never came here.  Most of the settlers north of what is now Mexico were European.  The Spanish, and Portugees were more into central America and South America.  All countries spread exploration farther, later.

Belief and Praying to a supreme being is not a Christian principal.  It takes an enormous investment to fund formal education.  Catholics and Jews had the wealth to take on such and endeavor.  When the country was formed it had no previsions for education.  And the way it was formed was based on the population being ignorant.  The population lived on subsistent farming so it was quite a hurdle to take children out of the fields to learn to read and write.  Once the power of education was realized it was a huge battle to give it up to the female sector of the population. (Another inequality, but common among organized religion vs. Christian principal.)
When the government took over education and created the public school system there was no religion associated with it.  And there still isn't today.  What religion would they pick in the first place?

Again you show your ignorance of history.  You are correct that Belief and Praying are not strictly Christian behaviors, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. 

The power of education was not realized.  It was known.  The first public education in the US was done by religious leaders.  Most education was done in the home.  Even when organized public education came it came from community organization of schools and community hiring of teachers.  In this country, emphasis on basic education was far more the norm than in most other countries. Because we did not have a class or cast system, we did not have people who would not need to know how to read and write.  Everyone was expected to be productive in some way, so at least basic education was important.

Once the power of education was realized it was a huge battle to give it up to the female sector of the population. (Another inequality, but common among organized religion vs. Christian principal.)
When the government took over education and created the public school system there was no religion associated with it.  And there still isn't today.  What religion would they pick in the first place?

Again you confuse societal norms with religion.  Most countries did not care that most women were educated and it was not about relgion.  It was about women being wives and mothers...and believe it or not, that thinking lasted well into the 20th century among many.  'Why waste money going to college when you are going to get married, have children, and stay home?'  One could make the argument that we are not better off for women NOT being home with thier children, but again, an argument for another day.


You are incorrect that there was no religion associated with public schools.  In many schools, the bible was used for reading lessons.  Religious lessons from the bible were used for many reasons, among them, to teach morality.  Until fairly recently, the 10 commandments could be found posted in public schools.  In my lifetime, school used to be opened with prayer.  We could make the argument that schools were safer and able to teach more things to more kids than what we have today.

I am not sure how you define "A religion".  You do understand that Christianity is not "A religion"?  And the basis for our country being Judeo-Christian encompasses a large part of the belief systems of the world in one way or another. 

[Ben Framed]

Ben Framed
the primary (first) pilgrims/settlers/immigrants etc were from England.

Acebird
I guess we will forget about Christopher Columbus, the Spaniards, the French, and the Dutch. 

Phil, you reading Kathy's history book?

Brian I did not 'say' others 'did not' settle here, I said the 'primary' settlers were from
England. The Thirteen Colonies were British Colonies.. I don't recall seeing anything but English names when it comes to founding Fathers listed. Such as names of the Declaration of Independence or The Constitution. I reserve the right to be corrected. Remember; 'Primary' is the key-word Brian primary settlers and founders ...

A little reminder and just for fun;
On August 3, 1492, Columbus an 'Italian', sailing 'in representation' for the Country Spain sailed in a group of three ships, the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria. On October 12, the ships made landfall. He thought he was, or hoped to be in the East Indies, but instead was on one of the 'Bahamian islands', 'likely San Salvador.' Not, part of the USA then or now a I recall....
You might find it interesting that, Columbus, the explorers first name according to Websters' Dictionary, (Christopher) means 'bearer of Christ' The name Christopher is derived from the Greek word Christ 'foros, meaning "bearer of Christ." It is composed of two Greek elements Christ's (Christ) and phero (to bear, carry). ... Origin: Christopher is an English name of Greek origin meaning "bearer of Christ.

Now back to the United States or what would later become the United States and its thirteen 'British' colonies, the place where we gained our independence and freedom, our constitution, and place where our Country was established etc... (The matter of our evolved discussion and its Constitution along with our Judeo-Christian base).
The first established foothold here was 'English', which later was to be know as part of 'New England' and located Jamestown On December 6, 1606, the journey to Virginia began on three ships: the Susan Constant, the Godspeed, and the Discovery. In 1607, 104 'English' men and boys arrived in North America to start a settlement.  On May 13 they picked Jamestown, Virginia for their settlement, which was named after their King, James I. James I of 'England' The settlement became the 'first' permanent English settlement in North America. And yes Brian, they built a Church there; Colony secretary William Strachey had written that "a pretty chapel" stood "in the middest" of the fort.

The first 'English' colony in, Plymouth Colony, 'New England' was established in 1620 by 'Puritan' Pilgrims 'fleeing' 'religious' 'persecution' from 'England'; Not 'Spain', or 'France', 'New England' was named by the people who primarily settled those 13 colonies Brian. Folks from 'ENGLAND'

Yes; a French colony was established earlier in 1604 two years prior on Saint Croix 'Island', 'Maine' but sadly it had failed. The French were VERY 'successful' in settling what is now Canada and the Louisiana Territory. The Spaniards were 'successful' in settling the Spanish speaking countries South of us.

The Dutch did settle in the area they named New Amsterdam in 1624, establishing a settlement with 30 families on present-day Manhattan. Much like English colonists in Virginia, however, the Dutch settlers did not take much of an interest in agriculture, and focused on the more lucrative fur trade.

Spain did establish a colony in Florida but was never more than a backwater region for Spain and served primarily as a strategic buffer between Mexico (New Spain) and had nothing to do with with our Constitution or the 13 colonies. Or any influence on the founding foundation of our country. As Britain took possession of Florida as part of the agreements ending the Seven Years' War in 1763, and the Spanish population largely emigrated to Cuba.

The French were successful in establishing the Louisiana territory which is now part of The United States. However; We did not purchase that territory until after our Independence from England and the Constitution had already been established, and written (September 17, 1787) so the french did not help establish our Constitution by representation either, bummer. In fact it was not until 1803 that the Louisiana Purchase Start date begin.

All Thirteen Colonies, that our country came from were known as the 'Thirteen 'British' Colonies' and where America began...


Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Bill Gates says Omicron "sadly"
spreads immunity faster than vaccines
Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates said the Covid-19 Omicron variant had 'outpaced' world vaccine drives in spreading immunity, urging health officials around the globe to respond more quickly to the "next" pandemic.
 
Does this mean that 'you' now have 'permission; (haa)', once again to discuss this subject? Or is it this still taboo to you/we 'peasants'; a subject 'only' to be discussed by the described, 'elites'? Please advise.....
Is the 1st amendment once again recognized by and for all American Citizens?  Hummm

[Ben Framed]

A TOTAL SHAM:
Liz calls out CNN for literally proving the Left?s science is fake. Is she correct?

[Ben Framed]

I am bumping this per renewed interest of discussion on another topic.

[gww]

Of course you are.  No surprise there.
Cheers
gww

[Ben Framed]

Of course you are.  No surprise there.
Cheers
gww

I am happy you approve..

[Acebird]

A TOTAL SHAM:
Liz calls out CNN for literally proving the Left?s science is fake. Is she correct?

No, she is showing her stupidity.
Answwer one question Phil:  Why did Trump get vaccinated after having covid?