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Author Topic: How important is a "Packed" hive?  (Read 12525 times)

Offline CoolBees

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2018, 09:09:27 pm »
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... Do not be fooled by a box full of bees, avoid becoming a complacent beekeeper. ...

Good advice. Once again, this is where I think Randy Oliver makes a valid point - [paraphrased] "Know what's going on inside you hive and stay ahead of it"
... at least until I [think I] have things stabilized.


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... Also, do not believe everything you read here...

Or anywhere - Agreed.
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2018, 10:40:50 pm »
Ms. Siwolke my apologies.  Thanks for the heads up Beepro.
Blessings
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline SiWolKe

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2018, 04:29:09 am »

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...I got the impression the bees have priorities. A split has to become an established colony and might lean all actions towards breeding and storing, ...

Exactly where my thinking led me -The 1st goal of the [new] hive is Brood, Stores, and Survival. After that might come disease prevention, and replication (swarming) ... I.E. They shift over to their long-term goals once all short-term needs have been met, and Mite resistant traits begin to show up more. ... This is what I think I might have seen as the difference in Hives. ... but it's just a Hypothesis right now.

I monitored mite drop for weeks every day after my bees swarmed and after making splits.
The mite drop differed very much between colonies ( I have 11 monitored), it differed before and afterwards. I correlated the drop to bee numbers.

Before I always thought the bees would breed fast away and the mites were left behind but it?s not true. Very fast the drop numbers were the same as before, but differed because of IMO genetics.
The swarms mite infestation rose quickly to a high level and I had crawlers. But some weeks later the hive was established and mite numbers were as before with the mated queen.

We made 4 splits out of my best queen this year in spring. I got the old queen and a daughter, a co-worker got two daughters.
Every split had two broodcombs dadant size. I restricted mine to 5 combs, hanged two honey combs and fed. After 4 weeks I expanded to 8 combs and later to 12 combs. They were filling the box.
My co-worker practises "live and let die" and did not feed. He had comb but only one honey comb. We had a drought. His colonies never thrived.
One died of mites in late summer and the other was robbed by a strong neighbor because it had no defense. Both starved.

Well, to learn about bees and to care for them in a man made stress situation is important.
He might tell people the bees were not resistant but it?s was failure of management which killed them.




Offline SiWolKe

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2018, 04:32:58 am »
No problem, Stinger13
 :smile:

Offline Acebird

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2018, 09:35:07 am »
You can't divide the mites, give them more brood to breed in, and expect to have less of them ... IMHO ...
I am not sure what kind of math you use but if you divide a colony in thirds two thirds will not have brood while the queen is being raised.  You could pull the queen in the hive that does have the mites and burn them or chemically treat them, same thing.
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Offline CoolBees

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2018, 12:25:13 pm »
You can't divide the mites, give them more brood to breed in, and expect to have less of them ... IMHO ...
I am not sure what kind of math you use but if you divide a colony in thirds two thirds will not have brood while the queen is being raised.  You could pull the queen in the hive that does have the mites and burn them or chemically treat them, same thing.

Good morning Ace - here is what confuses me - if you split a colony into 3 hives, you haven't "killed" any mites, and after 60 days, you have 3 times as much brood for your mites to breed in. It would seem you've just "kicked the can down the road" - delayed the explosion of 1 mite bomb, and created 3 mite bombs for later use.

How does that help? ... it doesn't make sense to me ...

Full disclosure: I'm really new at this, so I don't necessarily have a full understanding. Any advice is appreciated.
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Offline cao

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2018, 01:28:28 pm »
I don't want to put words in Ace's mouth but, I think what Ace is saying is that if you split a hive into three, the two raising new queens will have a broodless period which the mites cannot breed.  This allows the bees a chance to rid themselves of some of the mites that are there and delays your "mite bomb".  If you reduce the number of mites long enough during the summer then the won't reach critical mass by fall/winter.  If they don't get to that critical mass of mites, the "bomb" doesn't go off.

Offline SiWolKe

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2018, 01:41:33 pm »
I have tried this but it did not work. The mites live too long.

Actually, the mated queen?s split had better defense. Perhaps the pheromones of a more resistant queen will be the trigger to start the defense. I don?t know.

Perhaps, as coolbees said, the queenless hive prefers to build up. My queenless hives brought the honey, not the mite reducing.

The most important time to have a broodbrake in my eyes is late summer before winter bees which will be if there is a drought. If not fed, bees will become broodless or live off the brood and stop the mites?reproducing.
I tested a handful of bees in an apidea ( mini mating nuc) how long they survive without a queen and it was 3 month. They live longer without work and are able to breed winter bees then.

I live in an area with high density of treated hives, virulent virus and high mite reinvasion. I treated one colony which had crawlers with thymol, but I plan to cull a capped broodcomb in late summer as IPM if a hive ever gets over my threshold again.


Offline CoolBees

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2018, 02:54:09 pm »
... the [mites] won't reach critical mass by fall/winter.  If they don't get to that critical mass of mites, the "bomb" doesn't go off.

I think I understand what you are saying - basically your trying to keep the mites below a threshold until winter brood break, where the mite levels will go down automatically. - Ace, Cao, feel free to correct me here.

That doesn't work where I am in California. There is no winter brood break, just a brood reduction. Which means - all brood is infested with multiple mites - creating a 100% damaged/diseased cycle of bees..... ending in a crash. (My brood check on 11/28 showed happening to all my hives).

Also - all my hives did have brood breaks in 2018. All hives had to raise their own queens. My 4 hives were started from eggs and brood only 2/11, 3/28, 4/25 & 5/23 2018. (Genetics directly from "survivor bees").

Also, I pulled and froze drone brood on 1 hive repeatedly all summer as a test. This hive had the lowest infestation rate in Nov but still would have crashed.

All hives had mite levels by November - at or near crash threshold (mite levels high enough to infest multiple mites per pupae during reduced brood period = crash).

So splitting where I am - simply compounds the problem.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2018, 08:17:12 pm »
That doesn't work where I am in California.

Not surprising.  All my experience with bees was in Upstate NY in an area that I would call a mild winter but it lasted 4-5 months.  I definitely used the winter dearth to my advantage.  The advantage of a winter is that you don't have flying weather where neighboring hives can reinfect your hives with varroa.  So if I decide to have hives here in FL it is going to be like starting over.  So I continue to read...
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Offline Acebird

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2018, 08:25:24 pm »

Also, I pulled and froze drone brood on 1 hive repeatedly all summer as a test.


Two things ... I have heard Michael Bush say if you kill the drones the hive will raise more; if you kill the drones the mites will acquire a liking to female bees cus there is nothing else.  Both of these make sense to me so I do not cull drones.  Propagating survivors does make sense to me but it must be done with hives that produce honey and not bees IMO.
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Offline CoolBees

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2018, 08:27:54 pm »
...  All my experience with bees was in Upstate NY in an area ...

Wow. Definitely have 4 seasons there. Where abouts?

... I was born and raised in the Southern Teir of upstate NY. Lots of relatives there still.
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Offline SiWolKe

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2018, 03:57:04 am »

Also, I pulled and froze drone brood on 1 hive repeatedly all summer as a test.


Two things ... I have heard Michael Bush say if you kill the drones the hive will raise more; if you kill the drones the mites will acquire a liking to female bees cus there is nothing else.  Both of these make sense to me so I do not cull drones.  Propagating survivors does make sense to me but it must be done with hives that produce honey and not bees IMO.

I agree. Seeley said colonies in a small hive do the best.

To cold and warm climate:
In cold climate winter bees must be much more healthy to keep longer. So if Samuel Ramsay is right and the mites eat the protein body, it?s very good to have bees which can hold the mite level low and it?s very good to have drones all year round.
In a warmer climate the bees are able to substitute sick bees by breeding constantly. So if there is a broodbrake in summer because of a drought this might be better for the bees than the spring broodbrake.
In both configurations bees must already have had the trigger to fight the mites though, by genetics or adaptation.

Coolbees, did you open the drone brood to observe the infestation?


Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2018, 04:34:03 am »
If I was to go treatment-free....

.... I`d be pulling ALL capped brood when thresholds make it necessary. And then leave one or two frames of open brood (depending on frame size) and pulling that after 10 days to get most of the phoretic mites after the first pull.
Culling all of the brood would be necessary if "treatment-free" was to be accomplished.

What concerns me about that: Allright, I don`t use any chemicals, not even formic acid or oxcalic acid.
BUT: I kill many ten thousands of baby-bees per hive to accomplish that.
I am not talking of taking honey-makers off the hive, I am talking about baby-bees, that could live soundly, being killed.

I wonder if the cure (non-treatment) is not worse than the disease (treatment).

Offline Acebird

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2018, 08:51:44 am »

Culling all of the brood would be necessary if "treatment-free" was to be accomplished.


Culling all the brood is a serious treatment unless you classify "treatment-free" as chemical treatments.
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Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2018, 09:58:11 am »
what are you doing against the mites, then? they are there, you know.
letting half the colonies die each year?

Offline SiWolKe

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2018, 11:48:24 am »
I wonder if the cure (non-treatment) is not worse than the disease (treatment).

Yes. Sure, while I do not see the bee pupa as "babies" compared to humans I see the culling as a step on the way to treatment free not as a constant action like chemical prophylactic treatments.
Next step would be shift the queen or try to trigger the bees to more fighting.
And it?s done only to the susceptibles.

I saw a hive dying of a formic acid treatment which was done faulty. So I used thymol which is not as dangerous.

But I don?t want to contaminate my colonies with chemicals or oils. I plan not to eliminate all mites only cull one comb at a time to lower the numbers.

In a setting like yours, BFB, I?m not sure you will gain anything doing brood culling. You have lower bee numbers then and much energy wasted you need for foraging and therefore for your income.
If I were you and interested in having more resistance I would do soft bond using a threshold to treat, like we discussed in my introduction thread.

Offline CoolBees

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2018, 01:36:34 pm »
... Coolbees, did you open the drone brood to observe the infestation?

I did. 1 mite for 5 or 10 pupae were all I observed. They stopped drone production in the early fall

... mite levels spiked drastically by Nov.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2018, 04:47:35 pm »
what are you doing against the mites, then? they are there, you know.
letting half the colonies die each year?
That didn't seem to happen although there were very high counts in august.  Colonies that I expected to die in winter did not.  It was more the super colonies that didn't make it.  Had I needed more bees I would have tried Michael Palmer's method of splitting hives in July and then go through winter with smaller hives but more of them.  My goal was to stay around 3 hives and that ain't easy.  The bees tend to multiply.
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Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: How important is a "Packed" hive?
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2018, 05:18:07 pm »
I wonder if the cure (non-treatment) is not worse than the disease (treatment).

Yes. Sure, while I do not see the bee pupa as "babies" compared to humans I see the culling as a step on the way to treatment free not as a constant action like chemical prophylactic treatments.
Next step would be shift the queen or try to trigger the bees to more fighting.
And it?s done only to the susceptibles.

I saw a hive dying of a formic acid treatment which was done faulty. So I used thymol which is not as dangerous.

But I don?t want to contaminate my colonies with chemicals or oils. I plan not to eliminate all mites only cull one comb at a time to lower the numbers.

In a setting like yours, BFB, I?m not sure you will gain anything doing brood culling. You have lower bee numbers then and much energy wasted you need for foraging and therefore for your income.
If I were you and interested in having more resistance I would do soft bond using a threshold to treat, like we discussed in my introduction thread.

The thymol-stuff in my eyes is not worth the effort.

IF I`d do brood-culling I`d do it after the flow. For wintering and spring-buildup, the loss of bees won`t matter. Not in our place at least - including yours. Your experiment with the Apidea can tell you that.

Culling one frame at a time seems quite useless to me.

@ace: Do the just-survivors make honey for you worthwhile? Do they live another year?

All this treatment-free is a nice idea, but wait for the years with many mites. This one was easy-going in most parts of Germany. The yard`s are gonna crash. Maybe not in all regions. For some it seems the mites can be coped with. But in most places they will. As they have been the last decades. Some beekeepers say: Some are gonna die anyway. So it doesn`t matter if I treat or not. That is not true. The ones that died mostly have not been treated right. Some always will perish because of late queen-loss in fall or a failing queen. But most all of the ones dying die because the beeks didn`t do enough against varroa.
It is not only about surviving, it is about making honey the next year.
A sound, healthy hive will make lots of honey. It`s pretty much the only apect we can see of a healthy hive. Mammals are much easier to be judged concerning their healt.
Just barly surviving is not what an animal likes to do.

Every time I used thresholds to determine wether or not to treat a hive (treating individually that is) I regretted this later on as mite counts where a lot higher than in the treated ones and bee-population diminshing.