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Author Topic: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??  (Read 4744 times)

Offline van from Arkansas

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Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« on: December 19, 2018, 04:28:58 pm »


Attached are 3 pics of a dead out 12/17/18.  The pics show the reasons.  Look closely, there are two clear issues.

History of hive;:  2018 mated queen, Lang hive 2 each deeps.  Bottom deep where pics are taken was void of honey, just 1/2 frame of bee bread.  The upper deep hand 8.5 frames of mostly capped honey, very heavy I might add, so easily passed a hef test.  One of 16 hives in n this Apiary.  Unique issue with this hive is location in full sun, no shade, this hive struggled since orgin.  All hives bearded in summer except this one dead out: to hot to beard on entrance.  Insulated top cover, screened bottom.  NOTE:  This hive was treated for varroa 4, four times: 2 grams Oxalic acid with provap, vaporized OA: June-August and hand treated for beetles, that is each beetle killed with freeze spray.

Varroa can be seen on dead bees, very few beetles.  Queen is shown in upper pic.

Added info:  I was hoping the pics showed all the mite poop.  Mite poop was everywhere in lower deep, also peep holes in the little bit of capped brood.  Bottom board is screened with tray, lots, I mean 200-300 mites.  The bottom tray was cleaned in October.

Open for discussions.

I have decided there is error in my OA treatment, but I don?t know exact error
Timing of treatment?
Possible I missed a treatment on this one hive? That would mean 3 treatment in lieu of 4?????
Not complete vaporization of OA {I notice build up of OA on cap of provap.  The build up of OA crystals on the cap increases with number of treatments}

« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 06:44:13 pm by Stinger13 »
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2018, 04:42:36 pm »
Nosema counts ...?
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2018, 04:47:35 pm »
I did not see signs of nosema, no dwarf wing.  Small cluster of bees I might add.  There is definitely varroa signs everywhere, I am not saying this hive is virus free.  I do not have the knowledge or equipment to count nosema spores, I just note splatter and this dead out was splatter free.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2018, 05:03:47 pm »
Solid bottom?  Screened bottom with a tray?  Look for Varroa on the bottom.  Look for Varroa feces in the brood comb.  If you find an overwhelming number of Varroa then that is probably the cause.  They don't seem to be in contact with stores, but I don't know if those would have been robbed out by the time you found them.
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2018, 06:24:11 pm »
Good afternoon HP and M. Bush:

I was hoping the pics showed all the mite poop.  Mite poop was everywhere in lower deep, also peep holes in the little bit of capped brood.  Bottom board is screened with tray, lots, I mean 200-300 mites.  The bottom tray was cleaned in October.

I will modify and add this info to original post.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2018, 08:24:52 pm »
I did not mention the signs mites nor the lack of food as those were obvious plus you noted two clear issues in the original post.

Mites + virus = dead, what other signs are there in hive or out on ground?
Mites + lack of food = dead (mention of plenty of stores though, so ruled out)
Small cluster from mite or nosema + cold = dead
Nosema = stalled colony, eventually dead
Mite + nosema = super duper dead, kills the fastest

Your mention of this colony never really thriving means they have been sick all along.  That can be a nosema sign, hence my ask.  Did you sample and microscope for nosema at any time?

The signs in the comb and your updated info obviously indicates a high might load.  The treatment method and schedule should be reviewed.  OAV is very effective when applied at the right time and right intervals, the intervals being dictated by the brood status of the hive.  Mid winter, no brood, treat once maybe twice.   Brooding late summer/fall, treat at 4-5 days for 24 days (6 treatments). Imho.

That said, I would still be investigating, particularly wrt nosema, based on the observation that the hive was always lagging.

I also see she is cordovan colours. They are dead now so traits are unknown, just your observation memory.  However, I can say that around here the cordovan are really crap bees. I mean REALLY crap bees. Low hardiness for winter and tender in that they seem to succumb to the slightest ailments.  They sure are pretty bees though.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 09:25:24 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2018, 10:56:39 pm »
Thank you so much Hp.  I realize I need to study more on nosema.  Cordovans are not hard winter bees, I could understand in Canada not the best choice.  Getting late, more text later after I digest your info.
Blessings
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2018, 05:04:44 pm »
Decades ago AFB and nosemosis were the primary hive killers.

Then came tracheal mites. The TM panic and treatment quickly overshadowed and drew attention away from nosema. Yet the nosema remained as an underlying unassuming killer. Many colony dead were blamed on the tracheal mite, yet near as often the real killer was nosemosis.

Next came the varroa mite. Again VM concern and panic for treatment overshadows and draws attention away from nosema. The nosema still remains as a main unassuming killer. Colony dead were/are blamed on varroa PMS, we continue to overlook nosemosis.

Next came tremendous advances in analytical technologies and the re-discovery of the plethora of viruses of the honeybee. The technology allows the scientists and laboratories to learn in great detail the characteristics of the virus. Along with indications that the viruses are being propagated and amplified in the presence of the VM. Even still, again overshadowed, nosema remains in the background as an unassuming killer.

More recently increasing knowledge on the emergence of nosema cerena and the presence of both types in the same hive, nosema apis & nosema cerana. Having the same end result to the bee and hive, dead; but different visual/observation symptoms.

Then there are all the sidebar theories of the cell phone towers, gmo crops, the Zeus sneeze factor, neonics, etc etc. Some which have sound supportive basis, most do not.  Further, there is consensus of opinion in some circles that the onset of CCD could possibly be linked to the emergence of nosema cerena and the VM (also from cerena btw) within the same time period.  Both were foreign to the western honey bee and foreign to north american knowledge and beekeeping methods at the time.  Through it all, there is still the steady underlier - nosema.

Point is:  Nosema is not new.  Nosema always has, always is, and always will be present and deserves a fair share of the attention. It is easy to overlooked by the focus on other pests and diseases as new exciting knowledge is discovered.  In the background nosema is steady and ever present.  Left unchecked, it takes down hives just as effectively as a VM outbreak or a new virus.  So, it is suggested that everyone also include some periodic spore checks in your annual sampling plan. Particularly from that hive which is always struggling yet does not rebound and thrive as expected.

Presented for general information and background purposes as a launch pad towards learning more about nosema.
Certainly not providing any confirmation of diagnosis of this dead out from the few pictures given. The dead-out hive pictured has obvious VM/PMS indications. Probably PMS that instigated killing them off.  However the additional symptoms which stinger13 shared makes nosemosis a compounding probability worth checking a sample for.

Hope that helps!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 07:48:31 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2018, 06:06:10 pm »
@ TheHoneyPump.  That is very educational Mr Claude. Thank you for posting. I want to ask you, what do you recommend for this problem? The preventive and cure (if there is a cure)? I have heard and watched videos suggesting essencial oils are wonderful for both?
Thanks, Phillip
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 09:43:47 pm by Ben Framed »
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2018, 10:05:40 pm »
HP, I can?t thank you enough.  I studied nosema last night.  To conduct spore counts all I need is a small centrifuge and a gridded slide for counts.  I own a Zeiss medical grade microscope which is the main expense, the centrifuge and gridded slide are not that expensive.

Here is my delima, at this point I cannot place in Fumagillin my hives.  I realize you never mentioned Fumagillin the chemical is a category 4 toxin, ok, cat 4 is the least toxic.  However I have yet to study the effects of fumigilin on mammals.  This is the only nosemacide to my knowledge.  Please advise other if there are any?  Fumagillin is not legal in Europe, at least parts of Europe, I will have to know why.

My bees are treated with oxalic acid, for mites that is it.  I understand the acid effects and have confidence.  I will not use antibiotics in my hives for foulbrood, which has never been an issue.  I have a plan in case foulbrood attack?s my apiary, the plan in not pretty.

HP, your advice of nosema as an overlooked serious threat to hives is well noted and most appreciated.  Ok, tonight I will study effects of Fumagillin on mammal cells.  I just don?t know at the moment.  I am very particular what I put in my hives as I and friends eat the honey.

All summer I watched for signs of splatter, bee diarrhea. In 2017 I did have a hive with splatter that I corrected.  I changed the bottom board {BB}and hive body everyday for a week.  I washed the BB and body with vinegar to deactivate the spores.  The splatter cleared up and the hive prospered.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2018, 10:56:05 pm »
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23505365/?i=4&from=/25658121/related

This article along with many others have convinced me to avoid Fumagillin: toxic to mammal cells, not effective on nosema ceranae

Again HP, I realize you did not mention Fumagillin, but that is the only legal treatment in the US.  Surprisingly Fumagillin reduced spores in some hives but had no difference compared to control hives.  Both treated and not treated had the same number of bees, produced same amount of honey, same amount of brood.  Go figure.

On PubMed search there are many articles regarding Fumagillin, mostly negative data.  Disappointing.
Blessings
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 11:45:01 pm by Stinger13 »
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2018, 12:02:40 am »
Fumagillin-B was the traditional treatment for nosema apis for many years.  It is harmless.  Treatment applied once in the fall, just before wintering and once in spring to help clear the bees just before brooding. No other time. It was great for my climate, but perhaps not so great for more temperate areas that do not have as distinct cut-offs between seasons and flow.

It is important to know that Fum-B does not work well or at all on nosema cerena. That may be an explanation of the trials referenced which did not show benefits from the treatment.  That or the fact that nosema is not usually a problem mid-summer. Nosema kills in the winter and stalls the colony in the spring. There is also a tolerance threshold. Below and the bees are able to manage and can clear themselves in summer.  Too high and the bees never get going, they're done for. Just out of curiosity it may be good to check back as to which nosema they were dealing with or if segregated if it was known.

I did not mention Fumagillin-B as it is also no longer manufactured nor available. If you are lucky enough to find some from somebody's stockpile it should be hoarded, used by exception and sparingly, as it is rare to find.  If you have it, do not use it until you know which nosema you actually have. For a bad case of nosema apis, use it confidently, it works and will save the hive.  Nosema cerena, do not use it, it does not work much if at all.

In absence of Fumagillin, the chase has been on for quite some time for effective alternative treatments.  Lots of on going development, trials, elixirs, .... Some pockets of successes, but nothing yet that singularly jumps out as the silver bullet for nosema.

In absence of an off the shelf treatment, we can put our beekeeper hats on and default to best practices around the bee yard. Think of what you would do as a beekeeper to enhance hygiene and prevent cross-contamination as well as what you would do with a hive that has any seriously contagious and infectious disease. Once vacated, the equipment can be fumigated with acetic acid (vinegar) to kill the spores.  ( No need to burn it, like AFB ;) )

To try to save a hive and clean-up the bees, think in terms of actions usually taken to clear seriously infected bees out of a hive. For example, move the hive.  Then setup new or decontaminated equipment in the old hive location. Salvage the queen and move her into the new setup with a few fresh combs, her best brood frame(s), and a frame worth shake of the youngest nurse bees. Perform a complete shake out of the rest of the hive a distance away.  The really sick (nosema bombs) will not go anywhere and will perish at the shake location. The healthy and mildly infected will find their way to the freshened hive setup.  Clean and treat the vacated equipment before reusing anywhere.

With some help as mentioned, the infection level is knocked below the threshold and over time with highly nutritious feed and favourable conditions (summer!) the bees manage and usually recover quickly. If the bees do not immediately recover from your efforts then: save the queen and kill all the bees before the infection spreads to others. Fumigate the vacant equipment, reassemble and make ready to start anew from scratch. In otherwords, start a new nuc by drawing resources from healthy hives and install the salvaged queen.

NB: the queen is very rarely infected with nosema, is why I promoted keeping her when ridding of the bees and decontaminating the equipment.

Hope that helps!

PS:  No need for hemocytometers and such.  Checking for nosema is best kept simple and relatively coarse.  There is either:  none, a negligible few, some, a bunch, or too many.   Need a 400x microscope, view slides, tweezers to pull the abdomen off, a small cup or bag to mash the abdomen(s) in, some clean water, and a end sharpened stick to stir and drop a droplet onto the view slide.  It is actually quite easy and quick to do, once you've done a few.

Apologies! I rambled on. I certainly did not intend to get into the weeds on nosema in this thread. Thought it important to get into it for folks not familiar. I mentioned nosema as a very likely contributor to the colony lagging all summer and ultimately the dead-out;  I also wanted to put some time in to raise renewed awareness of nosema as a traditional disease that is so often overshadowed and overlooked nowadays amongst the mite-virus hype. Not saying that is what the hive had, just being suggestive as something to look into if there is no prior benchmark done for nosema in the apiary.  Note: there does not have to be presence of dysentry for there to be presence of nosema.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 04:25:40 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline beepro

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2018, 02:50:11 am »
You forgot to treat when the new bees emerged.  Opportunity missed!

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2018, 09:36:19 am »
The main reason nosema apis is no longer a problem in most areas is that nosema cerena kills nozema apis.
Jim
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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2018, 10:24:15 am »
The main reason nosema apis is no longer a problem in most areas is that nosema cerena kills nozema apis.
Jim

Jim, Does the tea tree oil mixture  have any effect on the nosema cerena?
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2018, 01:24:18 pm »
You forgot to treat when the new bees emerged.  Opportunity missed!

Beepro, I do not believe there is a treatment for nosema cerena, apis yes but not cerena.  Fumagillin does not effect cerena as it does apis.  I also cannot determine bonafied effects of cerena as research is contradictory.

In the early stages of a recently discovered pathogen, data sets can be confusing.  The confusing data sets will be tried, then we will receive accurate information.  I just reviewed a handful of articles on nosema, yesterday via PubMed.  Some scientists are ringing alarms {this is real cause of CCD}while others say nothing to worry about.  In time we will know bonafied research verified data.
Blessings
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline beepro

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2018, 08:17:20 pm »
" NOTE:  This hive was treated for varroa 4, four times: 2 grams Oxalic acid with provap, vaporized OA"

Surely I just cannot skip on the details.   The number one secret that I found out while doing little OAV experiment using my small
homemade oav gadget was that it would be more effective around the new bees emergence cycle.   If you have missed a
frame with the cap broods remaining then the reinfestation in Oct, Nov. (most critical month) will crashed your hive.   Most of my
hives crashed in the month of Nov.  The mites are smart that they just don't jump on the same frame of the cap broods.  They will scattered out to infest different frame of cap broods.  After 3 seasons of fighting the mites, I'm still learning new things about their behaviors.   Once you understand you will be able to devise a better treatment option/timing.

Offline Live Oak

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2018, 09:14:32 pm »
You are indeed correct about the mite poop. 

Too late to do anything about it now but for future reference, it is VERY important to FULLY treat for varroa mites in the Fall. What I am emphasizing FULLY is that just killing phoretic mites is but a stop gap measure. You MUST treat with a method that kills the reproductive mites located in the brood comb, especially the capped brood comb. There are 3 treatments that will accomplish this:

1. MAQS (formic acid pad)
2. Formic Pro (formic acid pad with a longer storage shelf life)
3. Mighty Mite Killer (thermal treatment)

OAV is a VERY good method of treatment for mites BUT it kills phoretic mites predominantly. If you do not kill the as many of the reproductive mites as humanly possible, the varroa mite population will gradually recover and if not monitored and retreated will overtake the colony. Killing as many reproductive mites as possible usually greatly increases the amount of time that a colony must be retreated.

I treated my 8 and 10 frame hives with the Mighty Mite Killer in early Fall. My nucleus colonies got treated with the Mighty Mite Killer in late Fall. A hand full of hives, that I did not have time to treat with the Mighty Mite Killer as a last resort got treated with MAQS. Formic acid is very effective but it is also very hard on brood and queens especially if used in the upper temperature range of its recommended use.

If you are not going to treat for reproductive mites and you want the next best protection from the those mentioned above, try using Apivar during the Fall. It is also VERY effective at killing phoretic mites but it will be inside each colony 24/7 for almost 2 months doing its job round the clock whereas OAV is more of a quick knock down product although it does have some residual affect from the micro crystals of OAV that reform and distribute throughout the hive.

Sorry for your hive losses. Hope you can make up the losses with splits this Spring. Pick your poison. Just my 2 cents worth based on the amount of tuition I have paid at the "University of Hard Knocks".

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2018, 09:20:56 pm »
Thank you Beepro, yes there is definitely a hole, mistake in my treatment timing with Oxalic Acid.  There was capped brood when I treated and I realize mites are safe in capped brood.  I was hoping with repeated treatments to at least slow down the mites until December, when broodless for the final most effective treatment of the year.

I have 15 other hives doing well.  Still when I lose a hive, just one, I feel bad and look for my error{s}.

Tomorrow the weather looks perfect for my December treatment with OA.  Gonna nail those mites, except for my treatment free hives that are bad tempered, defensive little bees.
Blessings
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Pics of a Dec. dead out: discussion open??
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2018, 11:20:04 pm »
Liveoak, I adore the your idea of the Mighty Mite Killer (thermal treatment).  New to me, thank you Sir.

Can you recommend or anyone else? I looked at the web site and demo and I am impressed.
Blessings
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

 

anything