Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.

[Acebird]

guggle says not much rain.  More like a desert which would explain the bloody cold and bloody hot.  The only thing that matters is the bloody cold.  The bloody miserable would be a plus for feeding because there wouldn't be any robbing while it is down pouring.
I guess where Wally and I are coming from is you don't know what you got until you open the box.  The OP can do it now or he can wait until spring.  That is his choice.  Doing it now does no harm.  Waiting means you could lose an opportunity to help what is there.  Assuming there is something worth helping.

[Acebird]

Response to 'Iddee',  'Yes' the Lang has 8 frames inserted with wax foundations.

Paul reading through the thread again this is another thing I would not allow.  If a hive is small and developing you do not want that much space for the bees to defend.  You are hoping the bees to accept a couple of frames in the Lang box not all eight at once.  My guess from the photo is the parrot box only covers about four frames so if you blocked off the area to the other four frames it would be better until they occupy at least three of them.  Once they take up the three frames you can open access to the other four.

[eltalia]

@Acebird
"I guess where Wally and I are coming from is you don't know what you got until you open the box. 
The OP can do it now or he can wait until spring.  That is his choice."

As alluded to earlier (by myself) the whole relocate could have been done
very differently, Brian... almost treated as a trapout type scenario inclusive
of where you go in your other comment;
"so if you blocked off the area to the other four frames it would be better until they occupy at least
 three of them.  Once they take up the three frames you can open access to the other four."
.... however Paul used his initiative in research and chose to go the path
described now. It is not an unreasonable call for a novice to make, and
does demonstrate a degree of awareness (care) for the bees.
Sooo.. my advice(s) are designed to help out with what is presented, not
what could have been.

I reckon we all know - or could know with a little "googlin'" - the other
options where the bees were in the box in the tree, the time for major
intervention. The job done, now is not the time to change the direction.
These guys have maybe four weeks to get enough comb drawn on a new
frame to facilltate opening the parrot box and physicaly relocating the
queen IF she has not moved down. Going in there now without anywhere
for her to go lay is an element of risk not justifiable.

Bill

[Acebird]

Limiting access to four frames instead of 8 is zero risk and improves the survivability of the hive.  Knowing what is inside the parrot box increases the survivability but does have some risk.  There has to be some pressure on the colony for them to use the Lang hive.  He has no open brood to place in it which would guarantee the queen would go in it and most likely lay in open cells.  So the only outside pressure I can see would be to feed.  Do it fast do it now while it is warm enough to draw comb.  For all Paul or anybody knows they could be starving and that is why they are testy.

[eltalia]

Brian, "I can see" sez it all. No wonder confusion/bewilderment reigns in
online forums around bees where what's seen is not actualy seen.

"For all Paul or anybody knows they could be starving and that is why they are testy."

Those bees are not starving, I know the Peninsula well enough to
know know that. Paul would also know, newbee or not.

Bill

[Thetreehouse]

Hi again,

Thank you all, once again for your advice, guidance, opinions, etc,   I really do appreciate it.  I must be honest (as a complete new comer to beekeeping), there really is so much conflicting advice that i've now become quite confused.  Many of you have certainly given me lots of things to consider.  By the way, I'm now also reading my 4th beekeeping book (in 3 weeks) and have learnt quite a lot as well, in a very short period of time.  That aside though.... i'm still none the wiser with what to do with my particular set up.  That's not to say for a minute that i haven't heard what you've all said. Its just that i'm now confused.  There are so many options and things to consider, such as:

a. Do i leave the parrot box/lang how  it currently is, with winter coming on very soon. 

b. Do i cut the bottom off the parrot box, reduce it to the bottom of the existing comb inside, and then somehow place it onto of the lower 8 fame lang.  To do that i suppose i'd also need to cut a large hole in the top of my lang lid (the size of the parrot box) and then weatherproof it all. 

c. Do i reduce the amount of frames available to the colony by closing off access to a few of the outer frames.

d. etc

e. etc.

Although i've never done it before (hey, i've only been a beekeeper for 3 weeks now), for some strange reason I actually feel quite confident at opening up the Parrot Box, Cutting out the Comb, and tying/rubber band it in to some of the new lang frames in the Lang. Hmmm, i'm not sure why is should be feeling so confident in doing that, however it sounds like a reasonable simple task to achieve, as long as i'm well suited up and protected. 
The problem is though, is that i'm also thinking that I should just leave it all along for now.  I'm lets face it, apart from removing the Parrot Box from the top of a large gum tree a few weeks ago and fixing it to the top of a new lang, have i really changed much for the bees at the moment.  If i hadn't have cut the tree down, they would still be in the parrot box up in the tree.  Now, 3 weeks later, they are still in the parrot box. The only difference now is that the parrot box is currently sitting on top of a lang hive in a slightly different location in my backyard.  With this in mind, and with winter/fall coming on, my simple mind tends to see lots of sense in just leaving it all alone for a while. That certainly is an option, and one thats probably the least disruptive the to bees.   

To be honest with you all though, i'd probably prefer (and feel better) if they were already well established in the new 8 frame lang...., but they're not.  By the way, they are definitely looking like they are happy.  There's lots of activity each day, ie comings and goings, non stop.

The only question i'm really struggling to make a decision with is, do i totally disturb them now and remove them from the Parrot Box (ie a Cutout into the new lang), or do i leave it all as it is until after Winter?  Hmmm, right now i really wish i had a mentor who could come and physically look at my setup and help me achieve the best outcome.  Who knows, i might find a suitable mentor when i attend my very first Beekeeping Club Meeting next week.  I'm really looking forward to that.

I do in fact have another question however.  Should there be a screen/board/etc between the top of the lang brood/super and the hive lid.  At the moment my hive lid, which has a cavity under it about 50 deep, is sitting directly on top of the lang brood/super.  Therefore there is a 50mm space between the inside of the lid and the top of the frames.  I note that some of you have indicated that this is not ideal, because the bees don't like empty spaces.  I'm of course wondering why the lid is made like this to begin with, if that's the case.  Should remove the existing lid for a while and construct a totally flat lid without any space below it (ie just a board). I could then connect the Parrot Box to the new 'flat lid', and give the bees access through 2 aligning 40mm holes.  Would that be considered a better setup or something worth considering, as we head into winter? 

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Regards, Paul.

[iddee]

Number one rule in beginning beekeeping.""When in doubt, do nothing.""
You have the hive ready for winter. Leave it as is until spring. By then, you will have a better idea of what you want to do

The space below the lid will only be a problem in the spring when they start drawing comb. That is where they will begin drawing when they enter the lang. They will not draw the frames as long as they have open space. Check them in early spring and remove the open space then.

[cao]

As the saying goes, ask 10 beekeepers the same question and you will get 11 different answers.   I think that you have a better handle on the situation than you think. 

I would leave the parrot box alone until a more favorable time of the year(spring) when you have warm weather and a flow going and the bees have time to fix anything you do.  The only thing that I would do now is possibly replace the top cover of the lang to reduce the 50 mm gap between the bottom of the parrot box and the frames.  Even that would not be totally necessary if you are going to do a cutout in the spring.  It would be less space for them to build comb before they start building on the frames. 

Iddee beat me to it, but it is worth saying again.

Number one rule in beginning beekeeping.""When in doubt, do nothing.""

[Acebird]

In post 11 you said it was 30C = 86F.  That is a heck of a long way from fall in my book.  If the bees are not expanding or capable of drawing comb I would not have put the parrot box on the Lang hive.  If and that is a big if that is true then I would take the parrot box off.  I see the combination, the way it was done as a problem apparently others don't.  Either way if you can get some local help making a judgment call on the timing next spring it would help allot.
Paul I suspect the cover you have was intended to be some kind of quilt box.  It doesn't make sense that the bees would have access to the 50mm open space.  That is why I recommended putting the parrot box right on the frames and just use individual pieces of wood to cover the Top of the Lang.  There is no need to wreck your good cover.

[Thetreehouse]

Thanks again for everyone's further input.

Brian (Acebird), Yes you're correct i did say that the temp was 30c+.  Last week it was. However today our temp is only 12C at the moment.  As Bill has previously said, Melbourne has 3 seasons usually in one day. We're currently in our Autumn.  There are a few months remaining before we're officially in our Winter.   Our weather can fluctuate quite dramatically within a short time, and our nights are currently quite cold. It's also incredibly windy today, with quite a bit of local damage being reported.

[eltalia]

Number one rule in beginning beekeeping.""When in doubt, do nothing.""

(edit)

Yer on a roll Wally.. two right in less than a week!!
You will be scoring a trifector any time soon.. heh :)

Paul has to haul his own coal now, plenty has been contributed
in both "wheat and chaff". I'm done, until Spring.

Bill

[Acebird]

There are a few months remaining before we're officially in our Winter.

We are a day away from spring and I would welcome 53F degrees right now but it ain't going to happen.  These are just seasonal words, fall, winter, spring.  What is your winter?  Will you have 3-4 months where the bees will be clustered and can't get out to poop?  That's winter.  But that is a good thing because they won't eat the house and home when there is no way to resupply it.  How much did the parrot box weigh then subtract the weight of the box and a litter for the bees and that is all the honey they have to make it through your winter.  How many bees?  If they are not clustered then they are going to be eating.  Is there any way of resupplying?  These are my concerns.

[iddee]

Treehouse, it was 21 C. 3 days ago here. Tomorrow, the forecast is snow. March is our 4 season month.

[eltalia]

 

There are a few months remaining before we're officially in our Winter.

These are just seasonal words, fall, winter, spring.

The Met. guys (BOM , here in Aussie)  have to own some points of reference and so largely copy
the NH model despite much of Australia not complying. The Northern Territory (NT) has a better
system focused on "the Wet" and "the Dry", further broken down to five seasons by the
indigenous peoples around flora and fauna changes.

What is your winter?  Will you have 3-4 months where the bees will be clustered and can't get out to poop?
That's winter.  But that is a good thing because they won't eat the house and home when there is no way
to resupply it.

Brian I have had this 'thinking' (come mantra) talked over with Mr. Bush in another place, as not
only is it flawed in use as an excuse for Aussies not understanding how clustering works - tho'
many an Aussie b'keep does not, thinking an observed cluster is only bees making wax
(cascading) - but also demonstrates a wholesome lack of understanding as to bee-thinking in
times of dearth.
Bee-thinking being the essence of much of Mr. Bush's work.
A dearth being any period bees cannot forage for environmental reasons, airtemp being just
one.

The actuality for much of Southern Australia is an accumulation of days within the cooler
times('seasons') which fall between 18 celcius and 10 celcius with wind or rain (or both
simultaneously) where bees cannot fly and forage. Bees decide, and they cluster - they
also slow or cease completely any brood rearing.
Very common and well documented by savvy b'keeps. That time can be as long as four
months in dearth. Back in the day nobody fed bees however with utterances from
supposed "esteemed dignitries" visiting from the USA, and the advent of the Internet,
many do today feed bees.
Wholly for the wrong reasons and in my view actually abusing the organism they hope to
care for, or not... in some heads.

In Northern Australia we are a great deal better off in not owning a constant yearly (cyclic)
"winter" , as,  if it gets below 18 celcius most drag out the Vicks [tm] and the horse blanket
to huddle in the pickup, motor running, heater on!
Buuuut what we do get in some years is an extended Wet, and in the Dry a failure of
known reliable species to flower. Our bees "cluster" in these rainy periods and as many have
discovered in woe - having kept right along ripping honey off supers - their bees die, massively
so. When these times extend out to three months, maybe four in some years, colonies drop off
the perch, or swarm, leaving behind a real mess of moth and beetle infestation.

I personally have a rule for honeybadgers - one I do teach as a mantra - which goes like "if
there is no wax wing it", the expansion being... if you do not see new wax formed around the
tops of frame in drawn comb then forget extraction regardless of the state of capacity on
frame inspection.
I have long held bees know better than us just what weather lays ahead or indeed maybe
what flora is coming on.. and they will tell you if you are listening. One of their messages
around excess is to begin building in what was previously beespace. They do that in saying
"good times ahead, here you have some fella... yer a Good Guy"... or some such romantic
drivel..heh :)

So, regardless of the "seasonal word" Brian we do have exactly the same behaviour
happening here "Down Under" as in the NH, the bees know no latitude numbers, they just
deal with what they have wherever they bee.

Yes, I know many a NH b'keep jumps up and down with pointy finger claiming temps below
 0 celcius for weeks, maybe months on end creates a special circumstance - however,  there
 is Man-brain thinking, rampant... for bees "wintering" is simply an adjustment in
longevity.
No...?...think about your (NH) wild hives in existance since the Pilgrims bought "honey in a
box" to America's lands. What we (Man) has done is screw them over with so many opinions
on variances in housing we are then forced to provide stop-gap measures in maintaining the
Colony in an actuality many of us do not understand/comprehend.
The irony in all of the "that's there this is here" argument is the same housing that works
here will work in the NH, as it is primarily that factor which Man has varied from out of the log
hollow.
Change is all that is required, and that I will address in that Cold Weather thread,

Bill

[Acebird]

So, regardless of the "seasonal word" Brian we do have exactly the same behaviour
happening here "Down Under" as in the NH, the bees know no latitude numbers, they just
deal with what they have wherever they bee.

Bill the US is a unique country.  We have 11 of the 13 climates possible in the world.  The winter in FL is not the same as the winter in ME that is what I mean by seasonal word.
It was a long post and I think I understood most of what you said.  You described a condition that was one of my concerns for the parrot box, running out of honey.  I made a comparison to my winter vs. Paul's winter because temperature does matter.  If the temperature is warm enough the beekeeper can feed.  He can induce brood rearing even in a dearth.  That is the difference between my latitude and Paul's.  Rain, wind and dearth affects foraging.  It does not affect the ability to feed or the ability to raise brood.
It is my assumption that Paul wanted these bees to survive.  I think his goal was to get a jump on things and have them established in a Lang hive.  He went ahead and made that first move.  IMO because he made that first move he is forced to try and make that happen.  Had he not done that he could have waited until spring and then tried to transfer them to the Lang.  And I would have said good plan.  That is what we tell newbies that find feral bees in the fall.  Because at my latitude you cannot successfully transfer bees in the fall to a bare bones Lang.

[eltalia]

"Because at my latitude you cannot successfully transfer bees in the fall to a bare bones Lang"

Nor in any other location where the flying condition falls below 12/15 celcius for much of the
day every day, Brian. None of Aussie is experiencing that now nor indeed for maybe another 6 weeks
at least.
But I have done with Paul's scenario, this response is in relation to my preceding post, one
 addressing your question on Aussie weather seasons.
Please don't have me regret not starting a new topic on it, for sure there is one already in
the archives.

"If the temperature is warm enough the beekeeper can feed.  He can induce brood rearing even in a dearth. "

And right there is the core problem I see USA - and other NH climes - b'keeps creating in
feeding colonies going into winter and breaking out of it.
Such practice finds analogy in building the equivalant of a "strawman", seems to serve a
 purpose, looks good, but has no endurance in sustaining the brood created. And as read,
can cause colony collapse.

Rule (?)... where there is a dearth, brood rearing must slow and egg laying cease.
Hard lesson for some to learn, but the bees will tell you there is the Facts of the matter.

Maybe a new topic in the general forum if you wish to argue this, Brian?

Bill

[Acebird]

No point in arguing Bill.  You make rules for bees and that just gets me chuckling.

[eltalia]

No point in arguing Bill.  You make rules for bees and that just gets me chuckling.

I quote bee rules Brian, not mine.
The day that understanding of the organism happens in many a NH
apiary the losses will fall well below 37% each April.

Till then keep right on chuckling, as you kill bees year in year out.

Bill