Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment  (Read 5879 times)

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19971
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2023, 01:40:39 pm »
Most years I pay to have them inspected to get a health certificate from the state to sell queens.  Mite counts are pretty typical.  Some low.  Some high.  APHIS sends the same people out (from the University) to do all kinds of tests including Varroa.  Same results.  Never really high.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12830
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2023, 01:42:01 pm »
Thanks...

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline yes2matt

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 539
  • Gender: Male
  • Urban setting, no acaricides
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2023, 05:31:42 pm »
, doesn't the resistance not still persist and build with each years use?
Phillip
Resistance will only be maintained if the same miticide is constantly used that it has become resistant to.  Resistance is quickly lost if the "resistant" agent is not present as it's energetically and genetically expensive for any organism to maintain resistance to something that is not present in it's environment and ergo there is no requirement to do so. Which is why changes are important. Three years is the mantra, but it could easily be 4 or 5. But changing every three years seems to work okay.

Still not had anyone clarify what the threshhold level for mites is before treatment is needed?
Threshold:  it's changed over the years. And by "it" I mean the consensus among American academic voices (because that's what I have access too).  When I took bee school, consensus was 10/300. A few years later it went down  to 6/300.  Now, when I hear this conversation,  folks are saying 2 or 3/300 is time to medicate.

It was explained to me as "economic threshold" : when the mite load on the bees is significant enough to be deleterious to honey production equivalent (economically) to the expense (supplies and labor) of treatment. This was back before "we" understood the second order effects of mite infestation,  namely vectored disease.

So that explains why the threshold (which is a consensus figure among practitioners/ academics)  has gone down, because "we" account the second order effects of disease to mite infestation,  and so economic threshold is lower because infestation is accounted more expensive. Also because OA specifically is cheap, and so lower costs of treatment also bring the threshold down.

Man I hope that made sense to you,  it makes sense to me but I have ... issues. ;)

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Online The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4594
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment
« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2023, 07:00:13 pm »
Still not had anyone clarify what the threshhold level for mites is before treatment is needed?
Threshold:  it's changed over the years. And by "it" I mean the consensus among American academic voices (because that's what I have access too).  When I took bee school, consensus was 10/300. A few years later it went down  to 6/300.  Now, when I hear this conversation,  folks are saying 2 or 3/300 is time to medicate.

It was explained to me as "economic threshold" : when the mite load on the bees is significant enough to be deleterious to honey production equivalent (economically) to the expense (supplies and labor) of treatment. This was back before "we" understood the second order effects of mite infestation,  namely vectored disease.

So that explains why the threshold (which is a consensus figure among practitioners/ academics)  has gone down, because "we" account the second order effects of disease to mite infestation,  and so economic threshold is lower because infestation is accounted more expensive. Also because OA specifically is cheap, and so lower costs of treatment also bring the threshold down.

Man I hope that made sense to you,  it makes sense to me but I have ... issues. ;)
Personally, my treatment threshold is ~5%, just to throw my 2 cents in. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12830
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2023, 01:41:55 am »
"Yes2Matt"
"Now, when I hear this conversation,  folks are saying 2 or 3/300 is time to medicate."


Matt 2 to 300 is a 0.67% mite threshold. I've not heard of that low recommendation before, 'anywhere'....  I am not disputing you, but I would think that is a bit extreme (for a threshold)??
 
Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4594
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2023, 11:10:56 am »
"Yes2Matt"
"Now, when I hear this conversation,  folks are saying 2 or 3/300 is time to medicate."


Matt 2 to 300 is a 0.67% mite threshold. I've not heard of that low recommendation before, 'anywhere'....  I am not disputing you, but I would think that is a bit extreme (for a threshold)??
 
Phillip
I've heard extremely low numbers like that from several sources too.  I listen to a very interesting podcast interview on The Well-Managed Hive with Dr. Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman where she talked about mite counts and treatments and why the recommended thresholds are so low these days.  I came away with a similar impression to Matt; we now understand that one of the real dangers from varroa is virus transmission, and it obviously doesn't take many varroa to spread a virus (or several) to a colony, nor does it take many mites to re-infest a treated colony. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12830
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2023, 12:33:37 pm »
"Yes2Matt"
"Now, when I hear this conversation,  folks are saying 2 or 3/300 is time to medicate."


Matt 2 to 300 is a 0.67% mite threshold. I've not heard of that low recommendation before, 'anywhere'....  I am not disputing you, but I would think that is a bit extreme (for a threshold)??
 
Phillip
I've heard extremely low numbers like that from several sources too.  I listen to a very interesting podcast interview on The Well-Managed Hive with Dr. Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman where she talked about mite counts and treatments and why the recommended thresholds are so low these days.  I came away with a similar impression to Matt; we now understand that one of the real dangers from varroa is virus transmission, and it obviously doesn't take many varroa to spread a virus (or several) to a colony, nor does it take many mites to re-infest a treated colony.

As I stated a 0.67% mite threshold is less than one mite per 100 bees.. The low number quote which I found and posted in an earlier post was from Pennsylvania State University and based on a '2' mite per '100' bee wash average.. Not 300 in case that might have been misunderstood?.. Which would be 6 mites per 300 bees..  I personally do not like those numbers either. Can you or Matt provide the source or sources 'address which suggest the newly 0.67% mite threshold'?
Thanks,
Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4594
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2023, 07:09:50 pm »
As I stated a 0.67% mite threshold is less than one mite per 100 bees.. The low number quote which I found and posted in an earlier post was from Pennsylvania State University and based on a '2' mite per '100' bee wash average.. Not 300 in case that might have been misunderstood?.. Which would be 6 mites per 300 bees..  I personally do not like those numbers either. Can you or Matt provide the source or sources 'address which suggest the newly 0.67% mite threshold'?
Thanks,
Phillip
I wasn't suggesting that .67% exactly is a new recommended treatment threshold, and I doubt Matt was either.  What I have heard though, mostly on podcasts, is people essentially saying they treat if they see any mites or more than one (something I think is unrealistic personally).  Here is a link to the podcast episode I mentioned.  It's been a while since I listened to it, so I'm not sure exactly when in the hour they discuss the treatment threshold conversation, but it's a good listen if you have the time.  https://thewellmanagedhive.podbean.com/e/dr-gloria-degrandi-hoffman/
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12830
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2023, 08:30:23 pm »
Thanks I understood that Matt was not suggesting that number is the new accepted threshold standard. I think he said something like he has been hearing or reading where this is being talked about (somewhere), 2 Mites to 300 bees.  Thanks for the link I look forward to hearing that discussion.

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12830
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment
« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2023, 10:48:31 am »
Mr Binnie came out with a video on this matter since our discussion, (actually yesterday). He explains things he is finding.  I am placing that video here for you consideration.

The bee world seems to be constantly changing and beekeepers need to be prepared to change with those circumstances is my opinion.

Phillip

https://youtu.be/TDzlQkzO1Io






« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 01:37:29 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Bill Murray

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 504
  • Gender: Male
Re: Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment
« Reply #70 on: July 04, 2023, 11:43:16 pm »
Quote
Maybe if you could coordinate with all the beekeepers in the area to rotate the same ones that might work.
[/b]

I posted on this a while back. WAS called Draconian I think.

 

anything