Oxalic acid vaporizer

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Brother Bush: {Generally speaking, poorer beekeepers have healthier bees than wealthier beekeepers.}

In that case I should have some very extra healthy hardy bees.
Blessings

[moebees]

(lol) I'll let yall sort all this out, until the meanwhile I'll keep vaporizing. OA is also found in wood sorrel and sourwood.

Of course in wood sorrel and sourwood it isn't a vapor that can damage mucous membranes (including the respiratory tract) and eyes.  And although people constantly crow about how it is found in many plants and in honey it nevertheless can precipitate out to form kidney stones and painful joint mice.

[djgriggs]

Can anyone recommend a good vaporizer ???????????? thank you

[GSF]

I think one of the ones I have I got from Mann Lake. Try to be sure you get it from a reputable dealer in case something goes wrong with it.

[little john]

(lol) I'll let yall sort all this out, until the meanwhile I'll keep vaporizing. OA is also found in wood sorrel and sourwood.

Of course in wood sorrel and sourwood it isn't a vapor that can damage mucous membranes (including the respiratory tract) and eyes.  And although people constantly crow about how it is found in many plants and in honey it nevertheless can precipitate out to form kidney stones and painful joint mice.

When OA leaves a vapouriser it isn't as a 'vapour' - it has cooled below it's sublimation temperature and has thus reverted to it's solid state, but now as a fine micro-crystalline dust.

Bees don't have a respiratory tract lined with a mucous membrane, and - unlike ours - the cornea of their eyes is covered in fine hairs.  They don't suffer from kidney stones either, not having any kidneys ...

When people quite correctly state (which you appear to interpret as 'crowing') - that Oxalic Acid is to be found within many foodstuffs - they are referring to bee-related issues, rather than issues of human ill-health.  BTW - any number of acids in excess (uric, phosphoric etc) can cause kidney stones in those who are susceptible.
LJ

[Bush_84]

Can anyone recommend a good vaporizer ???????????? thank you

You can either make one or buy one. There?s a good topic on beesource detailing on how to make one. Otherwise get a provap if you can afford it.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

(lol) I'll let yall sort all this out, until the meanwhile I'll keep vaporizing. OA is also found in wood sorrel and sourwood.

Of course in wood sorrel and sourwood it isn't a vapor that can damage mucous membranes (including the respiratory tract) and eyes.  And although people constantly crow about how it is found in many plants and in honey it nevertheless can precipitate out to form kidney stones and painful joint mice.

You mean Uric acid, not oxalic acid.  For that matter calcium is well known for kidney stones, but try living without calcium.

We don?t crow about oxalic acid, we state facts so folks can make us their own mind.  Moe, Sir, of all people you should appreciate facts about food, especially with your background.
Blessings

[2Sox]

Can anyone recommend a good vaporizer ???????????? thank you

Purchased this on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-Ridge-Bee-Company-Oxalic-Acid-Vaporizer-USA-Made/172331597185?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Haven't tried it out yet but it seems to be comparable to others around, and at a very good price.

[Dabbler]

Can anyone recommend a good vaporizer ???????????? thank you

Purchased this on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-Ridge-Bee-Company-Oxalic-Acid-Vaporizer-USA-Made/172331597185?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Haven't tried it out yet but it seems to be comparable to others around, and at a very good price.

2Sox - Looks very similar to one that I built and have been using for 2+ years. I am sure you will be happy with it.

[GSF]

Van & Little John,

The other cool thing about Oxalic Acid (vaporizing) is that it's most effective when used correctly. Having been on a farm the most of my life one thing I know first hand is just how quick you can loose an animal, a crop, or something else, plus everything has a window. You must operate within that time frame. That's why I read and read about what folks did with their bees to keep them alive. I started on this forum board and read backwards for a year's worth of time. I got to reading how the beeks in Europe have been successfully applying the OAV method for 30 years or so. I didn't see any other choice. At that point chemicals or no chemicals I was planning to keep my bees alive. The only foreign thing I have introduced to my hives has been OAV. Like you said, it crystalizes and the bees clean it up. I went from one, to three, ect and now my problem is trying to get BELOW the number of hives I desire to have. 30+ swarms in a year's time is a norm for me. This year I hived at least 25 swarms, and said goodbye to at least 10 that I couldn't get. I later sold 20 of them as nucs.

OAV - You can't argue with success!

[cao]

OAV - You can't argue with success!

I don't doubt your success with OAV, but I have had similar success without it.  I have now more hives than I really want(need to get off my a$$ and sell some).  I overwintered 29 and have nearly tripled that with splits and a few swarms.  There lies the argument.  One can have success or not, with or without OAV.  I am not at all trying to push the treatment free agenda.  I'm just saying what works for me.  As I see it, it is a choice each beekeeper has to make.   

[2Sox]

OAV - You can't argue with success!

I don't doubt your success with OAV, but I have had similar success without it.  I have now more hives than I really want(need to get off my a$$ and sell some).  I overwintered 29 and have nearly tripled that with splits and a few swarms.  There lies the argument.  One can have success or not, with or without OAV.  I am not at all trying to push the treatment free agenda.  I'm just saying what works for me.  As I see it, it is a choice each beekeeper has to make.

You make a good point.  It's clear that if there was a way of keeping our hives alive without treatments, we'd all do it.  But I, and apparently many others, just cannot accept the loses.  I've used MAQS
and they work very well.  This year I'm going to introduce OAV in a week or two.  Probably do it once or twice more.  On Labor Day I do MAQS and then a month later, again.  (I wrap my hives too.) I had four hives going into the winter, and four hives coming out. 

I just sold my place in upstate the NY State watershed.  I had between 10 and 39 hives. But for the last five years before I sold I had about 8-10 hives. My loses - treatment free - were always 50-90%.  Started MAQS and that went to around 20-25%.  I REALLY did not want to treat, but I couldn't maintain those kinds of losses and continue beekeeping.

[GSF]

Cao, I hear ya, I'd love to not have to do anything with my hives. I OAV starting the last week in August and I do it every week for the next 3 - 4 weeks. That's a lot of time I could be doing something else.

[Michael Bush]

>You mean Uric acid, not oxalic acid.  For that matter calcium is well known for kidney stones, but try living without calcium.

Most kidney stones are calcium oxalate and the oxalate often comes from oxalic acid in food not uric acid. 

[Bush_84]

This conversation has sure made the rounds. If you want to go treatment free go for it. For me I?m going to treat for mites and not much else. This piece of technology will increase the cost effectiveness of varroa treatment tremendously. I?ve already invested the time and money into the build. I?ve practically already saved that money back with spring treatments. I didn?t mean to open a treatment vs treatment free debate. I simply wanted to make sure everybody was aware of this piece of equipment. It?s easy to do with the right skills/tools and exponentially faster than the wand type.

[VermontHoneyBee]

I don't mean to fuel any debates but I don't understand how other areas of the world are able to breed bees that are Varroa proof.  Varroa is not a bacteria but rather a parasite.  While we have deer that survive being covered with ticks, there is no deer I know that will not be affected by the viruses transmitted by the ticks.  My understanding is that it is not really Varroa what kills bees but rather what the mites bring with them.

I have read that Varroa affects bees less in areas such as Indonesia and India as well as South America because those areas are hot and if a hive reaches 104 degrees all the mites die, even the ones in capped cells.

The problem with treating for Varroa is when we don't address the lifecycle of Varroa.  If we did, OA and FA would be very effective.  I could be wrong but what I think we should be doing is perfecting a way to heat up a hive without killing the bees.  Already in Europe there are services available where they come with devices that you can put many frames inside and threat all the frames in less than 20 minutes.  I am a very technical person and I don't understand why we can develop some sort of a heater that can be used effectively.  The Varroa mite, in the thousands of years of existence, has yet to build resistance to 104 degrees.  If there was such a device, I would purchase it quickly.

[Bush_84]

OA is very effective during broodless times. In a location like yours and mine a single fall treatment would be pretty effective.

[Ben Framed]

I didn?t mean to open a treatment vs treatment free debate. I simply wanted to make sure everybody was aware of this piece of equipment.

I am glad to hear the different ideas and the debate seems to be healthy. I appreciate you Bush-84 and the rest of you as well.  Very educational!!

[little john]

>You mean Uric acid, not oxalic acid.  For that matter calcium is well known for kidney stones, but try living without calcium.

Most kidney stones are calcium oxalate and the oxalate often comes from oxalic acid in food not uric acid.

"Diets in Western nations typically contain a large proportion of animal protein. Consumption of animal protein creates an acid load that increases urinary excretion of calcium and uric acid and reduced citrate. Urinary excretion of excess sulfurous amino acids (e.g., cysteine and methionine), uric acid, and other acidic metabolites from animal protein acidifies the urine, which promotes the formation of kidney stones."
LJ

[little john]

My understanding is that it is not really Varroa what kills bees but rather what the mites bring with them.

The problem is both mite and viruses - Varroa live off the adult bee's fat bodies and thus mortally weaken them, AND generate bees with malformed torsos while feeding from their bodies during development within the cell.  In addition there are also the viruses which themselves can cause deformed wings and other conditions which result in non-viable bees.

I have read that Varroa affects bees less in areas such as Indonesia and India as well as South America because those areas are hot and if a hive reaches 104 degrees all the mites die, even the ones in capped cells.

I have no doubt that there is truth to this - unfortunately we don't all experience such temperatures, and so need to work within our own local conditions.

The problem with treating for Varroa is when we don't address the lifecycle of Varroa.  If we did, OA and FA would be very effective.  I could be wrong but what I think we should be doing is perfecting a way to heat up a hive without killing the bees.  Already in Europe there are services available where they come with devices that you can put many frames inside and threat all the frames in less than 20 minutes.

I think you'll find this method takes an hour or more for each hive - which renders the technique a non-starter for all except the back-garden hobbyist.

If there was such a device, I would purchase it quickly.

There are several device already on the market - just 'do a Google' for them.

If this method was both effective, and practicable to use - then many of us would be using it instead of VOA.
LJ