frames

[orin]

Alright so I got all of my 8 frame medium boxes built and outa the way now its time to finish it up with building the frames....... I've been looking at the plans i have and it seems like there is quite alot of cutting and what not with these frames, do any of you guys have some building plans that you wouldnt mind sharing lol also what would be the best lumber to use for this? Thanks again guys i appreciate it

[gww]

I use the free beesource plans and I am using oak hickory and a bunch of other stuff to build them.  Whatever I get for free.  Were I buying boards, I would use pine.  If you are going foundationless, I think micheal bush has differrent top bar measurements on his web site to end up with 1and1/4 inch spacing insted of the 1and 3/8 that I am building which I believe is standard.  I would use a 2x4 or 2x6 (which ever is cheapest) for the side bars and one bys for the rest.  I do it all with the table saw.  The best bet might be to watch some you tube vidios and look for short cuts and what cuts you might feel you could leave out.  I just do it like the plan says to.  On the slanted cut of the top bar that sits on the hive body.  I put the table saw at the small measurement that the plan calls for and tilt my table saw blade between 4/5% angle and seem to end up with 1/2 inch where it is supposed to be.
I hope this helps
gww

[little john]

By far the simplest way to make frames is to rip some 22-25mm (3/4 - 1") pine planks into a few hundred feet of thin battens 9-10mm thick. Then cut these up into appropriate lengths. I run British Nationals, so my sizes will not be the same as yours. The trick is then to make-up a rectangle using butt joints and 100% waterproof glue. If you're going to use starter strips, cut a slot in the lower top bar before gluing. Then, after that frame is made, glue on the upper top bar.

This is what they look like at mating nuc frame size. I've added a line to make the top joint more obvious:




These are 14"x12" frames, the largest I've ever made using this method:




And here are some standard brood frames (14"x9")




To space the frames, I either use the Mk.1 eyeball, or fit the frame sides with thin woodscrews. Before the days of Hoffman, people used to hammer-in staples - but I find that screw adjustment is far more precise.

If you were to make a frame jig, then you could knock out a hundred or more of these each day, and still do other tasks in-between batches.

From this year onwards I'll be buying-in frames for saleable nucs, but will continue to make my own mating-nuc and custom frames using this method.

LJ

[gww]

Little john
If I ever get in a hurry and quit just screwing around, I love how you are doing your frames.  I will probly keep building like I am but if I ever really want to get a lot of bees, I am switching.  Thanks for sharing.
gww

[OldMech]

Web site needs to be updated, but this is how I build mine;
   http://www.outyard.net/frames.html

  The addition of 120+ hives is causing me to re think my use of foundation-less frames...   The hives I keep nearby to use for honey and queen production will always keep foundation-less, but with so many "other" hives for pollination etc, the plastic is much easier, if not as cheap.

[Dmrauch]

Oldmech

Why is using foundation easier than not using it? 

[OldMech]

   In the 50 hives I currently run its almost all foundation less. Getting it started straight can be a challenge with certain hives. 7 of 10 hives will draw it wonderfully, the other three hives are hell bent on making it crooked, so it takes a little more time to straighten it and get them in line. When extraction time comes I shuffle frames so that the honey frames I extract will be older frames with stiffer wax, that are also connected top and bottom, OR top, and both sides so that it extracts without blowing out the frame.    It takes time, that I once enjoyed, but no longer have the luxury to spend. Not really difficult to do it, just more time consuming. With foundation, only one of those ten hives will screw up when drawing comb.   Transporting hives 1200 miles also takes a toll on foundation less, especially if its 90 degrees outside, and or the comb is not well attached or new/soft. So i guess it is just a matter of taking advantage of the advantages of each in different situations.

[Dmrauch]

OldMech

Thank you for the explanation.  I am going foundationless in one of my frames.  It helps me to know the why of your decision.  Thank you for taking the time to explain for a new.

Dena

[Psparr]

OldMech

Thank you for the explanation.  I am going foundationless in one of my frames.  It helps me to know the why of your decision.  Thank you for taking the time to explain for a new.

Dena

Keep an eye on their progress and straighten out any wonky comb before it gets out of hand. Might smush some brood, but it's better than bad comb.

[BeeMaster2]

I am going mostly foundation less in the brood boxes but I am still using Plasticell in the honey frames. Mainly because it is easier to get them to draw straight comb in the placticell. Foundation less it better for natural brood.
Jim

[CrazyTalk]

And here are some standard brood frames (14"x9")



LJ

These are very cool - nice simple design without all the complicated cuts. With modern glues, they should be pretty strong too.

[little john]

These are very cool - nice simple design without all the complicated cuts. With modern glues, they should be pretty strong too.

Thanks - yes, I don't think foundationless frames need to be any more complicated than that.

It's useful to bear in mind that the only part of the frame that takes any significant weight is the Top Bar - and that's double thickness with a large glue area.  The sides (and their 'wires') take very little weight, and the bottom bar is only there to prevent the side-bars from pulling inwards from the tension of the wires - which actually isn't very much, maybe 5 or 10lbs tension at most (never actually measured it) - but I think it's wise to have a bottom bar in place.

LJ  (Ph.D. in life-long work-avoidance)

[Troutdog]

Gluing end grain to long grain on the joints is weak  you should pop a nail in those joints to be safe.

so much to learn so little time

[little john]

Gluing end grain to long grain on the joints is weak  you should pop a nail in those joints to be safe.

so much to learn so little time

Here's an end shot of a 12" deep frame (the largest I've ever built) - showing such a nail ...



I made half the batch of frames using nails, half without - in practice the nails proved unnecessary, as the glue is so strong that if you deliberately break a joint, it is the wood around the glue-line which fails and NOT the glue itself.  End grain gluing is actually very strong, as the glue penetrates much deeper and thus has a good grip on the wood fibres.  And - where the sides meet the top bar there are two surfaces, one in tension, the other in shear. 
I DID think about this you know, they weren't just thrown together ...

LJ

[BeeMaster2]

LJ,
I take it you are using gorilla glue. It is designed for and works well on end grain. White glue is not.
Jim

[little john]

Jim, you're right to raise this as an important factor.  Different glues work in different ways and work best on different types of surfaces.

For anyone who's new to this - one good example - although strictly speaking not involving glue - is to take 2 sheets of clean glass and pour water onto one, and 'stick' them together.  It will then be impossible to pull them apart, and the only way of separating those sheets of glass will be to slide them apart.  So, water-thin glues (such as super-glue) will perform best when applied to smooth surfaces with minimal gap.

But, when gluing some smooth objects, it often pays to increase the surface area of the mating surfaces in order to maximise the area upon which the glue will be acting.  This is commonly done by 'roughing-up' the surfaces with sandpaper, coarse wire brushes etc., which provides the surface with a 'key' - which provides more grip for the glue upon that surface as the result of the increased area of glue contact.

If you examine the end-grain of rough-sawn wood, especially that of light timber such as the white wood used for making beehive frames, you'll see the surface is extremely rough and thus has a much larger area for adhesion than (say) if it were to be sanded smooth. So it's best left like that if the intention is to use a relatively thick, gap-filling adhesive.

I've never used Gorilla Glue, so can't comment on it - I use a glue called 'D4': the name of which is a 'steal' from a EU classification for 100% waterproof glues. [D3 being a water-resistant glue when over-painted; D2 being a glue suitable only for interior use]  I doubt it's available in the States, but worth buying if you should ever come across it.  It's described as a 'Hybrid-Resin Adhesive', about as thick as thin custard (or single cream), has an initial set time of about 15 minutes, and is fully hardened within 24 hrs - can be much less - depends upon temperature.  It's target market is the construction industry, and it's probably somewhere around 75% as strong as epoxy - certainly it's much stronger than the wood it adheres to.

I now use it for all beeekeeping woodware - it's ideal in particular for painting onto exposed end grain to weatherproof that wood.  Brilliant stuff, and dirt cheap.
LJ

[BeeMaster2]

LJ,
Good info.
Does D4 foam up where ever it is not under compression?
That is what our Gorolla Glue does. It is water proof and during installation it is best to put the glue on one side and moisten the other side with water.
Jim

[little john]

When D4 glue is first applied, it presents as a white liquid, with the consistency of thin cream.  Providing that it 'cures' at a temperature in excess of 10 deg C., it dries as a transparent 'plastic'.   Less than 10 deg C and it will dry white, with much less strength.  (Hence my QD 'Hot Box' build in another thread)

There's no foaming, or any other kind of expansion - the best description I can give is that it's rather like using a transparent hot-glue-gun stick, but in solution.  Now one of the problems I've encountered with hot-glue-gun adhesive is that it sets far too quickly, so never gets to penetrate the wood.  Whereas this stuff does.

The positives are: 100% waterproof (like most plastics); dirt cheap (intended for building construction); ready-to-use with no mixing (unlike epoxy); and it's quick initial-set time - the glued items can often be gently handled after 15 minutes.

The negatives are: the 10 degree minimum requirement during the curing process; and a shelf-life of only 6 months - so without a Hot Box or nice warm workshop, it's really only a 'summer' adhesive.

I broke several test joints in the early days of using D4, and not one fracture occurred along the glue line, but always immediately next to it - with a thin veneer of wood always adhering to the 'plastic' glue.
I guess we've all got our favourite materials - and this one's certainly mine. 

LJ

[BeeMaster2]

Sounds like a good glue for hives. I have lots of Titebond II and like D4, when properly used, the wood breaks first. If I get a chance I will try D-4.
Thanks.
Jim

[Duane]

If you were to make a frame jig, then you could knock out a hundred or more of these each day, and still do other tasks in-between batches.

If you wanted to make more than one, and if you don't use nails, how do you keep them together while moving on to the next one?