Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: Lesgold on October 29, 2023, 06:38:37 am
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OK guys,
Many people around the world use screened bottom boards as part of their varroa management strategy (or so I have read) Any advice in relation to design and essential features? In looking at many of the options available, I can see that there is a bit of work involved in constructing them so jigging up would help to save time. To buy #8 hardware cloth in Australia is very difficult and quite expensive and would make the bottom boards a pricey item to make. Do you guys know of any alternatives? I?ve got one in mind but would like to explore every avenue. Thanks in advance for your guidance.
Cheers
Les
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To screen or not to screen, that is the question. I am but an aspiring beek but I have been reading up and absorbing as much as I can in preparation and have been paying attention to the screening debate. From what I have read, I have concluded that I will not be screening. So, before you decide to do it, I would recommend hearing what others report on the results and affects.
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is 3mm not a common size there? 3mm is available in US but very expensive and hard to find except in stainless. It seems like the slightly smaller size ( 0.175 mm ) wouldn't matter with varroa. I ran into the same problem looking for 4mm here as you have with #8. For that matter : Can a bee get through 4mm ?
This is what I ended up with for hive beetles (with the idea of it being useful for varroa as well). It works well on beetles. It does use #8, though I thought I needed slightly larger for the beetles to fall through. Turns out, the bees chase them through.
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=56595.msg519130#msg519130:~:text=Gender%3A-,Re%3A%20hive%20beetle%20control%20opinions%2C%20please,-%C2%AB%20Reply%20%2337
the drawer opens to the side because of the way my steel tube frame hive stand is made. It's completely open at the bottom when drawer is removed.
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Couldn't you just buy some metal screen and spread the weave apart with a proper sized drill bit?
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Teri, you could use a drill bit or awl to do every other one but it would be time consuming and hard to do without putting more "waves" in the material unless you had a support jig of some kind. (some of us have psychological problems that interfere with intentionally making the screen non-uniform :cheesy:)
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Teri, you could use a drill bit or awl to do every other one but it would be time consuming and hard to do without putting more "waves" in the material unless you had a support jig of some kind. (some of us have psychological problems that interfere with intentionally making the screen non-uniform :cheesy:)
I'm the oddball on that. Out of sight, out of mind. A lot of my buddies are OCD and I take a lot of heat for my sloppiness.
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but the bees see it :shocked: :embarassed: :cheesy:
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I have both screened and solid bottom boards, and honestly, I don't think I'd buy more screened boards, because they are more expensive, and they have very little bearing on my varroa management. I mean yes, it is rewarding to see varroa drop through a screened board after treating, but counting mites on bottom boards is both harder and less accurate than a sugar roll/alcohol wash. And if you are treating, you are killing the little jerks whether their bodies drop through the screen or just onto the floor of the hive. There are positives and negatives to both styles of BB, but I've personally found the screened boards to be not worth the extra cost.
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For swarm catches they are fantastic. I have used both. The only advantage to the screened for regular use was that I seems to have less moisture in spring when it's really wet. I closed them in winter. You probably don't have the rain issue that we have here and I didn't see a big mite control + in having the screened boards. If it ain't broke...
The one thing I highly recommend as you guys get varroa, is that you treat for it. I know a lot will disagree, but I think one of the reasons ours are so bad in some places is that there's to much "all natural" stuff going on and mites are spread around like crazy. + now that everyone wants to save the bees, there are beekeepers coming out of our ears!
:grin:
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Interesting comments. I have a couple of commercially made screened bottom boards that I?ve been using for years. One is in a poly hive and the other is a galvanised steel base. I also have about 5 bottom boards that I made which use a series of slots in the base for ventilation. The Bluebees board is what I?m talking about here. It has a series of semi circular sections or ridges that the bees walk on. Beetles tend to be chased out through the slots and all debris falls through the slots. It is one bottom board that never needs cleaning. I have been reading that screened bottom boards have a small impact on varroa numbers and are only partially effective. Is that what you guys are finding? The information that I?ve been getting is basically saying that it is only one minor component of a management system to help control varroa. If the information I?m getting is wrong, please let me know. I want to do as much as I can to prepare for the invasion that will hit. As far as the cost is concerned, that is a real consideration. I have been using an aluminium mesh for years in some of the beekeeping projects that I?ve made and it may end up as a cheaper option. I used some of this screen recently on the pollen trap that I made. Bees can?t get through it but small hive beetle can. The issue I had with the aluminium screen was the fact that I couldn?t buy it in the widths that would cover a bottom board. This meant that joins were required which became problematic. I found out a couple of days ago that it is now available in sizes that will suit my needs. Although much softer than stainless, it is very easy to cut with hand tools and bends readily. If I buy a roll, a piece for a bottom board would cost less than $4. I?ve read a lot about SBB?s over the years and I can see good arguments both for and against. The climate that you live in could tend to influence any bias one way or another. In my own situation, I leave the vented and screened boards open all year round. Observations on my part have only been anecdotal and not recorded but here goes. The hives have always been strong and healthy. I have noticed no difference in the strength of hives with or without SBB?s. The only exception to that is the poly hive that I?ve had for about 10 years. It is always a bit larger and stronger on average than the rest of my hives. Condensation is always less in these hives. Small hive beetle numbers appear to be consistent with beetle numbers in all other hives. The numbers appeared to be a bit lower in the hives with Bluebees bottom boards. Honey production appears to be similar to hives with a solid bottom. Again, the one exception is the poly hive that tends to end up with a higher honey yield than other hives. (Not always but it is always near the top producer). So in summary, in my situation in a temperate climate, a screened bottom board has no disadvantages but the question still remains. Will it have some impact on varroa? If the answer is a definite no, then there is no reason to change. If there is only a minor impact on varroa, a change is definitely an option. I have been designing a SBB that should be simple to make but I would like more feedback before I get started.
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I have seen zero noticeable mite reduction in colonies with screened BBs as opposed to solid; in fact this year, I don't think I treated a single colony on a solid board, whereas I treated 5 on screened boards. There are other factors at play of course that made certain colonies struggle more than others, but the screened boards in my experience don't help prevent or mitigate a varroa infestation in any significant way. The amount of live mites that fall through the screen by happenstance is just too small to make a difference, for my bees at least. Now, if you had very hygienic bees, that were actively cleaning the mites off, would it make more a difference? Maybe, but for my bees, it doesn't seem to matter what BB they are on, as far at mites are concerned.
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Thanks Reagan. That sort of feedback is great. I wonder if others are finding similar results.
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Wish I could help, but I'm too much of a newbie and haven't seen varroa yet. The bottom board/tray I'm using has done well on beetles. Only a few in the kill tray at first, then a wave of a huge number, nothing for awhile, then a few hundred, and maybe 2 or 3 in the last month. Haven't seen any actually in the hive in months. Planning on changing the bottom drawer/tray to 6 steep funnels with a female thread so that disposable water bottles can be screwed to them. The oil tray is a bit messy for clumsy me... but I'm just a tinkerer with one hive and an empty spare.
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I don't use SBB on my hives, but I use them when moving hives and when catching swarms. I have never seen any difference on Varroa.
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I don't use SBB on my hives, but I use them when moving hives and when catching swarms. I have never seen any difference on Varroa.
And what are the benefits of using them when you do?
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Ventilation. Bees produce a lot of heat when you are transporting them. Though normally I suspect SBBs make it harder for bees to cool the hive, when you are bouncing them around they tend to lose interest in cooling and their excitement can make them overheat. All my bottom board are minus an entrance (I run all top entrances) so I can put them on the bottom and also on the top when I'm moving hives.
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Thanks Michael. I was hoping that there was going to be some benefit but I?m not hearing much in the positive. That in itself is good as I don?t want to waste time building something that doesn?t appear to be living up to the hype.
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I don't think a SBB is bad if you put the tray in. It may or may not be useful for SHB. If you keep the tray in, it might be useful to monitor mite drop. But I never saw any difference for Varroa control. Also, if you leave the tray out, there is evidence it makes Varroa worse. They reproduce better at slightly cooler temperatures. The only significant upside is they rot more slowly since they always drain well...
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Les,
I have SBBs on on my hives. I didn?t build them for the mites. They are great at killing thousands of small hive beetles if you put oil in the trays. When I had my hives in at my Jacksonville house, they were in total shade. By my third year I had 12 hives and a neighbor half a mile away had 5 hives. We both were having to wash out the trays every 30 days, they would bee solid black with SHBs and they stunk. That?s 17 hives killing thousands each for 8 months. The next year we both quit using the oil because we were not seeing very many in the trays anymore. The great thing about the oil trays is that they kill the adults, the larvae that drop out of the hive to pupate and the eggs the bee?s clean out of the hive.
Jim Altmiller
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OK guys,
Many people around the world use screened bottom boards as part of their varroa management strategy (or so I have read) Any advice in relation to design and essential features? In looking at many of the options available, I can see that there is a bit of work involved in constructing them so jigging up would help to save time. To buy #8 hardware cloth in Australia is very difficult and quite expensive and would make the bottom boards a pricey item to make. Do you guys know of any alternatives? I?ve got one in mind but would like to explore every avenue. Thanks in advance for your guidance.
Cheers
Les
Les I was thinking of the gutter material that you told us about last year. Would this stuff work in this application that you are thinking of now? Perhaps you could cut it to the proper links, line it up and wire the strips together to form the proper size screen bottom which you seek and add some type of cross support to eliminate sag?
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=55456.msg507422#msg507422
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That is what I?ve been looking at. I have a roll that is wide enough to cover about half a bottom board. As you said, I could pit a join in the middle of the bottom board by adding a joining strip to staple the two halves to. I might do this just so that I can make a couple of SBB?s to try out. I can buy this material in rolls that are 500mm wide. And that would be perfect for this situation but I may be better off just making a couple to try before spending money on a wider roll. I could buy a 10m roll of this material for $90 which would provide enough mesh for 25 bottom boards. Jim, I have seen trays available here in Australia for that purpose. I might investigate that further. One issue that I have been scratching my head about is the slide in sheet that can be used to monitor mite drop off or to reduce ventilation during the winter. If this is not being used, it?s another piece of equipment that has to be stored. I don?t want to do that if possible. What do you do Jim? I would prefer to store it on the hive if possible rather than having to pull it out during the hot months and then replace it during the winter. Anyone with any thoughts? I will try to get the brain working on that one. Once again, thanks for all your comments in relation to the SBB?s. I was hoping to hear something positive in relation to Varroa control but it appears as though there is no real benefit from what you guys are saying. Our local wizards who are putting out information say that there is some advantage but it is only minor and they should not be used solely as a control measure. I think the advantages in relation to extra ventilation and possible beetle control have merit. I currently run 5 different styles of bottom board in my bee yard. They all work and the bees get though winter without issues with all hives building up well during the spring. Some have a few advantages but the bees seam to do what they need to regardless. When varroa does hit, it will be interesting to see if any of the hives show the capacity to deal with the pest better than others. I might make up a SBB next week and see what happens.
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Les,
I leave my oil trays in place all year long. This way I can see what is coming out of my hives, whether it is trash or mites or SHBs. I do take them out when traveling on hot days.
Jim Altmiller
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Good point Jim. How have the SBB?s faired with varroa? I?d be interested in your approach.
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I just use them to give see if I how many mites are in the trays. I usually only see heavy metal tea in the trays when I catch commercially thrown swarms. That is why I stopped trying to catch swarms when I?m surrounded by the commercial beekeepers at the farm.
Jim Altmiller
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Lesgold: I run self-made screen bottom boards with a plywood slide underneath all year long on my hives. Only one hive is in a really hot location, so I pull the slide out about 4 inches in summer to give them ventilation when they start bearding. I live in Idaho, always dry, but cold (foot of snow 10F) in winter and hot (around 100F) in summer.
I do not use SBB for mite control. I like the SBB because I can pull them out and tell a lot about what is happening in the hive without opening it up such as whether they are making wax, uncapping cells, eating their sugar in the winter, etc.
jimmy
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I started making a modified bottom board that is part solid and part screen. It saves on screen and oil in tray. I found some cheap aluminum baking trays that are about 6 inches by 9 inches. Then cut a hole in a solid bottom that the tray would cover. Put screen over the hole and make a couple cleats for the tray to slide on. I get the benefit of a screen board without having to screen the entire bottom.
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Look at that lovely collection in the tray. Pop it on the stove and you could make beetle pop corn??. Thanks for the posts guys. More food for thought. Has anyone tried sticky boards for beetle control?
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Look at that lovely collection in the tray.
I agree Less! Comparing the tray results to an infested hive and those results, it does look lovely!
Phillip
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Had a look at screened bottom boards from a beekeeping supply shop when I was up in Sydney buying some jars. When examining them I noticed that they were stapled together and were made totally from pine. They looked like they would be difficult to paint and I was concerned that they would have a short life span due to their design. Both these points were confirmed by the salesman. He said that they are a pain to paint and they last about three years in the bee yard. Do you guys have similar opinions or are there some tricks that are used for finishing or to extend bottom board life?
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Les,
Most of my screen bottom boards (with oil trays) are 10-13 years old the screens are in good condition but the side boards are now showing a lot of rot and soft spots. If I had made them from cedar they would probably still bee in good condition.
Jim Altmiller
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If you make your own SBB?s Jim, I?m sure that the quality would be better than the ones that I was looking at. Using a timber that lasts well outside would be the ideal starting point. From a commercial perspective, the added cost would make the bottom boards even more expensive than what they are currently charging.
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They are kind of a hassle to paint, but on all mine, which are purchased pine ones, I slapped it on thick as best I could. Only this past year did I have my oldest ones, 5 years in use, showing serious soft spots.
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I painted the heck out of mine and most are still useable. I don't think they deteriorated any faster than any of my other wood stuff, but our climate is so wet that nothing stands much of a chance for long.
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I've made all mine. The oldest 10 years. I've had a few that had to be retired. I have also made several different versions of screen bottom to solid bottom to somewhere in between. Nothing lasts forever but if it is well made 5-10 years is a good run.
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The SBB that I saw in the supply shop were made from really soft looking, poor quality pine. I could see and understand why they wouldn?t last. The big advantage of making your own is you then have the ability to paint all wood ware before the screen is added. This would be a huge advantage.
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Has anyone tried making stuff like this out of PVC board ?
2 disadvantages off the bat are cost and weight, but a full screen bottom board wouldn't require much in materials, so both disadvantages I know of would be mostly negated.
As far as rot/degradation goes, pretty much all you have to worry about is UV light and a coat of paint on exterior surfaces solves that problem.
I would have tried this, but already had good scrap wood that matched the look of the rest of the hive.
Alternately, anyone know a reason to not use it?
https://www.lowes.com/pl/PVC-trim-boards-Lumber-composites-Building-supplies/2820601687039
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Found some polypropylene serving trays on eBay. They were only $4.50 each and were of a size that would sit nicely into a screened bottom board. There would only be a small gap around the outside of the tray which would mean that the odd beetle would miss the tray but that?s OK as they would then climb back into the hive and be hassled again by the bees. The only way that I could build a tray for that sort of price would be to use second hand material.
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I use, used aluminum casserole "church supper" pans for my oil. I take a small branch about ball point pen size and roll the long side of the pan over the branches, so the pan does not bend then I use about 3/4 inch of used cooking oil in the pan, no problem, no mess if you think. Best part no cost. When the pan has a hole or otherwise not suitable for oil, I wrap the aluminum pan around small trees on which deer like to polish their antlers and often break the young tree. So far 100 percent successful.
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Thanks Paus,
That sounds quite interesting. Do you have any pictures to post. This would give me an idea as to what you are talking about. We may have them in Australia but they would possibly be called something else.
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The amount of live mites that fall through the screen by happenstance is just too small to make a difference, for my bees at least. Now, if you had very hygienic bees, that were actively cleaning the mites off, would it make more a difference?
I plan to have BeeWeaver bees (https://beeweaver.com/store/Package-Bees-c113207116) after re-queening. Since we live in the Texas High Country, those "Texas Tough" bees (https://beeweaver.com/our-breed/) would seem to be the right ones for us. And I would expect them to be "highly hygienic." They claim to have been "treatment-free for varroa" since 2000.
Now that I see that specific phrase, I see that they do not claim to be completely "treatment free," which I'm aiming for.
It also seems to me that a SBB with an oil pan under it would be the way to go. The alternative would be to cut a hole in the solid bottom board, screen it, and put an oil pan under it.
Or maybe I'm missing something?
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I tried one 6 inch hole with oil pan under the hole , 2 six inch holes with oil pan under, the back half screened with oil pan, neither of these worked as well as full screened. I only tried one hive of each but it only took one full screen to completely convince me. I caught 23 SHB the first 24 hours of full screen, nuff said. With a quilt top and DSBB i see no bearding in hot weather here in NE Texas, no mold, or condensation in cold weather.
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I plan to have BeeWeaver bees (https://beeweaver.com/store/Package-Bees-c113207116) after re-queening. Since we live in the Texas High Country, those "Texas Tough" bees (https://beeweaver.com/our-breed/) would seem to be the right ones for us. And I would expect them to be "highly hygienic." They claim to have been "treatment-free for varroa" since 2000.
Now that I see that specific phrase, I see that they do not claim to be completely "treatment free," which I'm aiming for.
You should certainly ask them about the specifics of that statement, but most beekeepers aren't treating regularly for anything except varroa. It could be that they've had some sort of disease outbreak in the past 20 years, and they had to treat for that, but it's not like their bees are regularly exposed to any treatments.
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I plan to have BeeWeaver bees (https://beeweaver.com/store/Package-Bees-c113207116) after re-queening. Since we live in the Texas High Country, those "Texas Tough" bees (https://beeweaver.com/our-breed/) would seem to be the right ones for us. And I would expect them to be "highly hygienic." They claim to have been "treatment-free for varroa" since 2000.
Now that I see that specific phrase, I see that they do not claim to be completely "treatment free," which I'm aiming for.
It also seems to me that a SBB with an oil pan under it would be the way to go. The alternative would be to cut a hole in the solid bottom board, screen it, and put an oil pan under it.
Or maybe I'm missing something?
Dora check this out. I think you will enjoy this topic.. "A Treat for no treaters"
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=53970.msg488317#msg488317
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> I plan to have BeeWeaver bees after re-queening.
I had Weaver Buckfasts back when it was just Weaver and then B.Weaver Buckfasts up until 2001. They were wonderful until 2001 when they were the meanest bees I've ever seen. Maybe they have calmed them down since them. I'll never find out...
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I usually only see heavy metal tea in the trays when I catch commercially thrown swarms. That is why I stopped trying to catch swarms when I?m surrounded by the commercial beekeepers at the farm.
Jim Altmiller
Jim, what do you mean by "heavy metal tea"?
(After skipping over your reference the firs time, I still can't figure it out.)
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Found some polypropylene serving trays on eBay. They were only $4.50 each and were of a size that would sit nicely into a screened bottom board. There would only be a small gap around the outside of the tray which would mean that the odd beetle would miss the tray but that?s OK as they would then climb back into the hive and be hassled again by the bees. The only way that I could build a tray for that sort of price would be to use second hand material.
Could you please tell us what size trays you found? A 14x18" tray is the closest I could find, at $8.49 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/155835400303?hash=item244883806f:g:RzAAAOSw-AZlL4AX&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8JrfCxtldmlCUW73rBhdNMzxO8x6hfC953xF%2Fo2Fcc9FkeB%2FKSj%2BV37umIehH84hNS%2BBSRc47wDo%2BrV92RG93T2Vg4SYOroYgKqLjwrcX%2FnapA%2FdGbfSz4Lh%2FK%2B2AWG0JpH9OSHp0r8JGO7%2BIsSYM2N6nRKWjLHSKc9fQSFmtIW4c7v9YbZSmu%2F3t2F9trpptrKoegaB8jMfgbwuBN6kvx4ZJrZ5wTvkQfB7d2EmfzSUbxqcm%2Ftj3h1%2Fuzi6UQwcTCtKJCcNVN3IUx%2BNXzSrK5AiTdBr78AVgyCO7vz9VbUTio7TvlXm1ku9h6DHZfe5Tg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMqO6Zkphj)
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I usually only see heavy metal tea in the trays when I catch commercially thrown swarms. That is why I stopped trying to catch swarms when I?m surrounded by the commercial beekeepers at the farm.
Jim Altmiller
Jim, what do you mean by "heavy metal tea"?
(After skipping over your reference the firs time, I still can't figure it out.)
Autocorrect got me again.
It was supposed to be heavy level of mites.
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Could you please tell us what size trays you found? A 14x18" tray is the closest I could find, at $8.49 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/155835400303?hash=item244883806f:g:RzAAAOSw-AZlL4AX&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8JrfCxtldmlCUW73rBhdNMzxO8x6hfC953xF%2Fo2Fcc9FkeB%2FKSj%2BV37umIehH84hNS%2BBSRc47wDo%2BrV92RG93T2Vg4SYOroYgKqLjwrcX%2FnapA%2FdGbfSz4Lh%2FK%2B2AWG0JpH9OSHp0r8JGO7%2BIsSYM2N6nRKWjLHSKc9fQSFmtIW4c7v9YbZSmu%2F3t2F9trpptrKoegaB8jMfgbwuBN6kvx4ZJrZ5wTvkQfB7d2EmfzSUbxqcm%2Ftj3h1%2Fuzi6UQwcTCtKJCcNVN3IUx%2BNXzSrK5AiTdBr78AVgyCO7vz9VbUTio7TvlXm1ku9h6DHZfe5Tg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMqO6Zkphj)
If you need more than four your better off buying on Amazon. Same size and brand, in black are $34 per dozen. Double to triple that in other colors.
Standard base made out of 3/4" needs cleats to hold the tray, one below is 1 1/2" so slides into grooves. Have four bases like this one...
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I tried one 6 inch hole with oil pan under the hole , 2 six inch holes with oil pan under, the back half screened with oil pan, neither of these worked as well as full screened. I only tried one hive of each but it only took one full screen to completely convince me. I caught 23 SHB the first 24 hours of full screen, nuff said. With a quilt top and DSBB i see no bearding in hot weather here in NE Texas, no mold, or condensation in cold weather.
Thanks Paus.
Phillip
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Could you please tell us what size trays you found? A 14x18" tray is the closest I could find, at $8.49 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/155835400303?hash=item244883806f:g:RzAAAOSw-AZlL4AX&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8JrfCxtldmlCUW73rBhdNMzxO8x6hfC953xF%2Fo2Fcc9FkeB%2FKSj%2BV37umIehH84hNS%2BBSRc47wDo%2BrV92RG93T2Vg4SYOroYgKqLjwrcX%2FnapA%2FdGbfSz4Lh%2FK%2B2AWG0JpH9OSHp0r8JGO7%2BIsSYM2N6nRKWjLHSKc9fQSFmtIW4c7v9YbZSmu%2F3t2F9trpptrKoegaB8jMfgbwuBN6kvx4ZJrZ5wTvkQfB7d2EmfzSUbxqcm%2Ftj3h1%2Fuzi6UQwcTCtKJCcNVN3IUx%2BNXzSrK5AiTdBr78AVgyCO7vz9VbUTio7TvlXm1ku9h6DHZfe5Tg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMqO6Zkphj)
If you need more than four your better off buying on Amazon. Same size and brand, in black are $34 per dozen. Double to triple that in other colors.
Standard base made out of 3/4" needs cleats to hold the tray, one below is 1 1/2" so slides into grooves. Have four bases like this one...
Thanks much, William. Very helpful, including photo!