Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: Captain776 on April 11, 2017, 06:38:40 pm
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I have been doing a lot of reading, here and other Forums and I see a lot of info on Frames.
I like woodworking but don't have the space here at the house I built 2 yrs ago nor do I have the proper equipment.
You can buy a case of 20 frames, waxed and wired for 54.00 from Mann Lake, that works for me.
Thanks,
Bruce
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Bruce,
I've been having a little trouble with the ML foundation. You should plan to paint wax on them before putting them in the hive.
The problem is inconsistent but needs to be addressed.
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buy the frames unassembled. you get more for the money. if room or cost is problem. get popcicle sticks and glue them in the top grove and apply some bees wax to them. run fishing line thru the side holes across and then a large x across the lines. let the bees build the comb on to the frames and you can still spin them. they will build the size they need.
john
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Foundation-frames: buy commercially-made flat-pack - as it's a helluva lot of work to make them from scratch. If you assemble them in a jig, twenty or thirty at a time, it's no great effort.
Foundationless-frames: why not make your own ? Those for my own use I make from pallet wood, at near-enough zero cost. Quick and easy to make. Nucs for sale have commercially-made frames though, as customers have 'conventional expectations'.
All my frames are now being fitted with verticle bamboo barbeque skewers for comb support. Fishing line proved reasonably ok, but the skewers are so much better.
LJ
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Bruce,
I've been having a little trouble with the ML foundation. You should plan to paint wax on them before putting them in the hive.
The problem is inconsistent but needs to be addressed.
Do you mean how the starter sheet is attached to the top board?
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Little john, How are the skewers working? I have made all my frames with skewers this year, any tips, expectations or observations.
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Little john, How are the skewers working? I have made all my frames with skewers this year, any tips, expectations or observations.
This is part of an email I sent yesterday to a beekeeping friend:
In general, I've decided to move over from fishing-line comb support, to vertical bamboo skewers for all of my foundationless combs. The bees definitely prefer attaching to wood, and this method results in a more attractive-looking comb and thus saleable nuc. The use of fishing line was a good idea, and was incorporated most of the time, but every now and then the girls would build to one side of the line and not incorporate it into the mid-rib - and that event always looked flawed and shabby.
So yes, excellent - much better than I'd hoped. I'm using two skewers per frame, with Deep (9") frames fitted with 3mm dia skewers, and the 12" Deep frames fitted with 4.5mm dia. 4.5 is thicker than I'd like, but it's the only way of sourcing the required length.
The bees actually draw 3 separate combs at first, then morph them together, and after a short while the skewers just 'disappear' into the comb itself. I haven't yet seen a comb attached other than from side-bar to skewer, or from skewer to skewer, so they appear to rather like that kind of comb attachment.
BTW, here's one of a number of 14x12" frames I've just built for a 'Colander Hive' experiment:
(http://i63.tinypic.com/23t5xt5.jpg)
The experiment involves a stack of two such boxes, with 14 small entrance holes for them to choose from. (I would have preferred a slot, but that's none too practical). I'm hoping that they will propolise shut the holes that offend them ...
(http://i64.tinypic.com/6zyptt.jpg)
I also took the opportunity to test the strength of my method of frame construction, as I use glue only, without nails or screws. Here's a Top Bar supporting a 56lb weight which I'm using as a GO/NO-GO means of testing.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/dphfra.jpg)
And here's one of the 14x12" frames under the same test:
(http://i63.tinypic.com/23vx1cz.jpg)
So - no need to worry on that score ...
All the best,
LJ
(apologises if I've hijacked this thread ...)
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Thanks Littlejohn All of my ??? are now !!! I was going to use 1/8 inch dowels horizontal until a friend Beek told to try the skewers. AGAIN THANKS
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Neat idea with the skewers! Do you think this could work with top bar to add a little strength to to comb? Maybe just one long one in the middle or two short ones to the sides?
Sorry if this is a dumb question,
John
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Hi John - that's far from being a dumb question ... :)
This is an extract from one of the first publications related to Top Bar Hives:
KENYA TOP BAR HIVE
The major drawback, which restricts its use to stationary-type beekeeping, is that the combs will break away from the top bar quite readily. The combs must be suspended vertically at all times; if the bar is rotated so that the comb is horizontal, the weight of the comb may cause it to break from the bar. [...]
[...] if three small holes, about 2.5 - 3 mm in thickness, are drilled through the top bar, the center one being at a 90 deg angle with the top and the other two sloping inward, then three 2.5 mm strips of wood or bamboo can be passed through these as depicted. When the comb is drawn out over these sticks, the comb will be strong enough to withstand transportation.
BEEHIVE DESIGNS FOR THE TROPICS, 1984, By G.F. Townsend, Professor Emeritus,
Dept. of Environmental Biology, University of Guelph
(http://i67.tinypic.com/11rvdc3.jpg)
If I were doing this, I wouldn't bother angling the outer supports, but bring them inwards a little and drill all the holes vertically - simpler construction, and will do exactly the same job. Barbeque skewers ex. local supermarket would be ideal.
'best, LJ
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Thanks Little John!
That's exactly what I had in mind. If I ever get around to building a mini or micro box, I'll give it a try.
John
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I've build my own frames. If you got the tools and the time it's doable. You can get 2x4s pretty cheaply. I will never build them nearly as well as I can buy them. As of now I buy most of mine. I will probably build my own mating nuc frames just because I don't think those are as important as the full frames. If money were tight I'd go back to building my own. At this point I just take whatever I make selling honey and put it back into this hobby. So I just buy frames. I'm still to cheap to buy foundation but that may change as well. Starting to get annoyed by drone comb, although I don't have a lot of troubles with wonky comb.
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Skewers is a great idea, I will be adopting that.
Thanks for sharing.
I paid through the nose for the 20 frames I had sent waxed and wired from Mann Lake, since then, I have found a supplier 20minutes from my house.
Brand new fully assembled and painted 8 frame hive here is 17.50 USD and frames are .70 cents, no foundation.
If I had the tools and the space, I would enjoy tinkering and building my own but for those prices, I have other things to do.
My wife and I also support 4 charities here.
When I need Frames, I will buy them for .70 and put starter strip in them.
Thanks
Bruce
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Frames are the only piece of gear I dont make because it think it would drive me crazy. The bee suppliers have expensive machinery and jigs to crank out hundreds of frame parts in an hour to make it effective for them to produce.....to me, it would suck to make unless i enjoyed watching milk curdle or paint drying....YMMV
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I actually started building my own frames because I didn't have any money at all. Now I prefer mine entirely. No wedge, just a solid top bar, and a 3/8 in bottom bar to keep the space. Click image for Hi-Rez...
(http://4catsandaherd.dynu.com/pictures/beez/waxedframethumb.png) (http://4catsandaherd.dynu.com/pictures/beez/waxedframe.png)
I use a soldering iron to attach the wax to the frames. Some cuts are made with power tools, some with hand tools. After schlepping a trap out of the woods, and the combs breaking and killing the queen, I "wire" everything with 30 lb test monofilament fishing line.
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Capt,
Your pictures are not showing up.
Looking forward to seeing them.
Jim
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Capt,
Your pictures are not showing up.
Looking forward to seeing them.
Jim
same here
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Are they showing up now? I'm running my own server, and it's a clunky 12 year old eMachines. It sometimes shuts off on me unexpectedly.
(http://4catsandaherd.dynu.com/pictures/beez/waxedframethumb.png) (http://4catsandaherd.dynu.com/pictures/beez/waxedframe.png)
If not, here are the links:
Thumbnail:
http://4catsandaherd.dynu.com/pictures/beez/waxedframethumb.png (http://4catsandaherd.dynu.com/pictures/beez/waxedframethumb.png)
Hi-Rez:
http://4catsandaherd.dynu.com/pictures/beez/waxedframe.png (http://4catsandaherd.dynu.com/pictures/beez/waxedframe.png)
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Now I can see the links but I cannot open either one of them.
Jim
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I can't even access the website itself, even at an 'index.html' level.
One problem I came across when compiling a website myself was that it is all too easy to be reading web-pages directly from one's own computer, rather than seeing them as others would see them via the Internet - and this can be deceiving, as everything appears to display ok to the website author. I wonder if this could be the source of the problem here ?
LJ
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LJ dump your history and then type in the url. This should bring you to the website. If you make changes dump your history again.
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It is frustrating to access the website through the network. I seem to be able to upload photos to eBay though. No idea why you all can't see the site. I've been running it for about 2 years now.
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I still cannot get to it.
Jim
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Ok. This is a web host. If you can't see this it's not me...
(http://rdodson.byethost7.com/cloud/image/bees/waxedframethumb.png) (http://rdodson.byethost7.com/cloud/image/bees/waxedframe.png)
http://rdodson.byethost7.com/cloud/image/bees/waxedframethumb.png (http://rdodson.byethost7.com/cloud/image/bees/waxedframethumb.png)
http://rdodson.byethost7.com/cloud/image/bees/waxedframe.png (http://rdodson.byethost7.com/cloud/image/bees/waxedframe.png)
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Yep - those graphics display ok, both on the forum webpage and directly from the links ...
waxedframethumb.png size: 361,329 bytes
waxedframe.png size: 3,299,058 bytes
(still can't see your avatar)
LJ
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Yep, same here. They both work.
They look good.
Jim
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All my frames are now being fitted with verticle bamboo barbeque skewers for comb support. Fishing line proved reasonably ok, but the skewers are so much better.
LJ
Do you just glue the skewers or glue and drill holes for them both?
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Drill holes both top and bottom, slightly over-size, using a simple jig made from scrap wood, so that the holes are in exactly the same position each time. Slide the skewer through them, leaving around half an inch sticking out at the top. Wipe wood glue around that half-inch and do likewise on the half-inch at the other end of the skewer which will he held by the bottom bar. Then slide the skewer home, and clean-up the excess glue with a tissue. Trim the excess away when the glue has set.
When working with 9" frames I use much thinner skewers, and find these often have a slight curve to them, so I try to ensure that the curve lies in the same plane as the frame - i.e. doesn't 'stick out' when looking along the frame length. I'm finding that about 5% of ex supermarket skewers are unusable.
LJ
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I do not drill holes in the bottom. My skewers are made from bamboo and are hard and sharp, so I just hit them with a hammer and they drive into the bottom frame, then a touch of titebond top and bottom trim after glue sets, done. I built a simple jig so all holes are in the same place and I stack and drill 3 or four at a time in the jig.
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If it's of interest to any builders of foundationless frames - I've just documented in some detail the procedure used and equipment I've built for "Turning Firewood into Frames". http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/index.html
LJ
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I build all my own frames, they are all foundationless. The worst part is assembling them. Luckily I still have 300 assembled frames and enough frame blanks to make another 200 so I'm good to go. I really should assemble those blanks before 2020 :cool:
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I agree that building your own - unless you have comprehensive woodworking facilities to mass-produce commercial clones - can be somewhat tedious. But if there are no plans to sell those frames/combs - then you only need to build them once (obviously).
I adopt a strategy of pacing the job: first, spend a day cutting-up wood to size, enough for a couple of hundred. Then set-up a couple of frames in a jig, walk away and do something else whilst the glue sets. Then each time I pass by the workshop, I set-up two more. That way, 10 or 12 can easily be made each day, every day - in the background, as it were. A good stock soon mounts up.
But if you're selling frames/combs, then I'd suggest you make 'em from commercial flat-pack. The jig I now use for this enables the gluing-up of 15-16 every half an hour, so making-up 150 a day is straightforward enough. It would be a much higher figure than this if I used a nail-gun, but I don't. Should I ever need to assemble more than this, then I'll simply make-up a second jig.
LJ
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Here is how I did mine.
Side bars:
were a 2x6, (width of my jointer) Ran them through the jointer for a clean edge and get the width I wanted
that I cut 2x the length/ height I wanted (safer than doing small blocks)
ran them partially through the jointer both sides for the bottom round out (used a stop on the jointer table).
Cut the blocks in half to correct height ?chop saw
Cut dato?s in tops and bottoms-
(http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/frames%20side_zpstupohqfx.jpg) (http://s1141.photobucket.com/user/6minz/media/frames%20side_zpstupohqfx.jpg.html)
Sliced them to final dimensions with the table saw with a sled and piece of wood under the cut out portion from the jointer.
Stacked and taped them and drilled holes, maybe should have done this before slicing them but did not have a drill bit long enough and I only have a bench drill press.
Bottom bars:
Stock is going to be the thickness of the bottom bar and the wider the better.
Chop saw to length
Set the full kirf blade (or dato) for the center grove and increment them through with your box jig to correct depth (picture a ? stock with a bunch of cuts through it) Do not forget to include the kirf of the blade for when you cut them apart! (you can see I missed that on the increment
Raise the blade, and split them.
Using the dato cut the shoulder on each side.
Top bars:
Again, full length, cut dato?s for the frame width both ends
Set dato to angle and pushed it again
Cut the kirf for the foundation on the bottom.
Ripped the top bars to width
Cut the wedge out.
Put on a dato and cut the sides dato sides and bottom.