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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Ben Framed on December 04, 2019, 08:54:51 pm

Title: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Ben Framed on December 04, 2019, 08:54:51 pm
What is the average length of time commercial beekeepers keep queens before requeening? I'm sure this varies from operation to operation. Mr HP, Mr Bush, Iddee, or anyone else, how long before you requeen?  Do you have a schedule that you go by? Just curious, I was reading from another post, (My BeeKeeping plan for 2020) and the life and age of  ''particular queens'' was being discussed.
Thanks,
Phillip
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: van from Arkansas on December 04, 2019, 09:07:40 pm
Phil, I can tell you, the big guns, Colby, Latshaw that collect $600 per queen, minimum purchase is four, I.e, $2400.  They restock the guys that raise queens capable of suppling 1,000 queens in a single shipment.  We are talking the breeders that supply about 70-80% percent of the genetics in the USA.  Well, I know one breeder very well and the fella  restocks every year with new queens.  Amazing capacity of 1K queens in a single shipment.
Blessings
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Ben Framed on December 04, 2019, 09:17:03 pm
Phil, I can tell you, the big guns, Colby, Latshaw that collect $600 per queen, minimum purchase is four, I.e, $2400.  They restock the guys that raise queens capable of suppling 1,000 queens in a single shipment.  We are talking the breeders that supply about 70-80% percent of the genetics in the USA.  Well, I know one breeder very well and the fella  restocks every year with new queens.  Amazing capacity of 1K queens in a single shipment.
Blessings

Thanks Mr Van, just another reason that we are blessed to have you here. A head full of knowledge. Your are breeding some top notch queens yourself and being modest about it. You are generous and kind enough to share with you friends,  just for the love of bees and people. I would love to add you genetics to my apiary! I do not know any other scientist who is so generous. The only reason that I have not already ask you for your genetics is because I do not think it is fair for you to simply give them. With all your research, expertise, AI equipment , etc you deserve to be paid. That's my opinion. :grin:
Phillip
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: van from Arkansas on December 04, 2019, 09:22:38 pm
Phil, off subject: but I made a promise: never to work for money after I retired.  If I accept $1, then I have broken a promise also I am no longer a hobbyist.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Ben Framed on December 04, 2019, 09:29:54 pm
Phil, off subject: but I made a promise: never to work for money after I retired.  If I accept $1, then I have broken a promise also I am no longer a hobbyist.

That I can understand. Hopefully, when the time is right coming spring, I will be making a trip to Arkansas!!! With your permission and your convenience of course.
Phillip
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: iddee on December 04, 2019, 09:39:10 pm
Van, that is where you and I disagree.When I lived in Illinois, I would stay out on the roads and highways all night when they were impassable, carrying food and drinks to strandees and bringing many of them back into town. I never quoted a price for doing so. Not even reimbursement for the drinks and food, nor fuel. I did accept donations. Whatever they felt like giving and/or could afford. I always managed to cover my cost and pocket a few dollars. I never considered it charging for my work, and I don't think they did either If someone wants to slip you 20, 50, or even more, for your queens or expertise, I do not consider that working for money. That is nothing more than a thank you note.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Ben Framed on December 04, 2019, 09:46:13 pm
Van, that is where you and I disagree.When I lived in Illinois, I would stay out on the roads and highways all night when they were impassable, carrying food and drinks to strandees and bringing many of them back into town. I never quoted a price for doing so. Not even reimbursement for the drinks and food, nor fuel. I did accept donations. Whatever they felt like giving and/or could afford. I always managed to cover my cost and pocket a few dollars. I never considered it charging for my work, and I don't think they did either If someone wants to slip you 20, 50, or even more, for your queens or expertise, I do not consider that working for money. That is nothing more than a thank you note.

Well said iddee, I have a friend who is well off and retired. He is really good at buying and selling cars. He buys only the better cars for the money, no clunkers, for the best prices and resells. He does not keep any profit for himself. He gives to his church and charities. Mr Van, you could always put it back in the bees or some other good cause?  Just food for thought thanks to iddees input.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Ben Framed on December 04, 2019, 09:58:07 pm
Van, that is where you and I disagree.When I lived in Illinois, I would stay out on the roads and highways all night when they were impassable, carrying food and drinks to strandees and bringing many of them back into town. I never quoted a price for doing so. Not even reimbursement for the drinks and food, nor fuel. I did accept donations. Whatever they felt like giving and/or could afford. I always managed to cover my cost and pocket a few dollars. I never considered it charging for my work, and I don't think they did either If someone wants to slip you 20, 50, or even more, for your queens or expertise, I do not consider that working for money. That is nothing more than a thank you note.

Well said iddee, I have a friend who is well off and retired. He is really good at buying and selling cars. He buys only the better cars for the money, no clunkers, for the best prices and resells. He does not keep any profit for himself. He gives to his church and charities. Mr Van, you could always put it back in the bees or some other good cause?  Just food for thought thanks to iddees input.

Either way, I would love to have The VT Breed of bees in my gene pool! :grin: :grin:
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: CoolBees on December 05, 2019, 02:08:44 pm
I read [somewhere recently] that many [some] commercial operations re-queen twice a year - to get maximum production at key points in the season. ... i.e. once in Jan during buildup for California's pollination, and again in June, after the queens have been exposed to all the chemicals of Big Ag, to get ready for the main flow in other areas (eastern seaboard).

I've no way to know the truth of this - but it makes perfect sense to me (if money/maximum output is the main goal).
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: van from Arkansas on December 05, 2019, 02:57:40 pm
Van, that is where you and I disagree.When I lived in Illinois, I would stay out on the roads and highways all night when they were impassable, carrying food and drinks to strandees and bringing many of them back into town. I never quoted a price for doing so. Not even reimbursement for the drinks and food, nor fuel. I did accept donations. Whatever they felt like giving and/or could afford. I always managed to cover my cost and pocket a few dollars. I never considered it charging for my work, and I don't think they did either If someone wants to slip you 20, 50, or even more, for your queens or expertise, I do not consider that working for money. That is nothing more than a thank you note.

ID, you explained just one of many reasons why I look up to you.
Blessings
Van
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: van from Arkansas on December 05, 2019, 03:06:53 pm
I read [somewhere recently] that many [some] commercial operations re-queen twice a year - to get maximum production at key points in the season. ... i.e. once in Jan during buildup for California's pollination, and again in June, after the queens have been exposed to all the chemicals of Big Ag, to get ready for the main flow in other areas (eastern seaboard).

I've no way to know the truth of this - but it makes perfect sense to me (if money/maximum output is the main goal).

Cool, your state is the backbone of $ for the entire USA, almond pollination.  I believe what you read; the big outfits do things different from us little beeks.

To me, I have found a 12 month old queen to be most productive and will swarm if your not watching close.  However, I have also seen some one moth old queens that were impressive layers.  I?m still learning, I can make a beautiful hive out of either, 1 month or 1 year old queen.
Blessings
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Oldbeavo on December 05, 2019, 04:25:51 pm
We requeen on a needs basis, if there are faults, poor brood, poor honey collectors or bad temperament then they are requeened with mated queens.
We have requeened with cells sometimes but I have doubts about drone quality at some of our sites.
How much do you pay for a queen? In Oz it is about A$30 for less than 50, while cells are A$5.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Ben Framed on December 05, 2019, 11:09:23 pm
We requeen on a needs basis, if there are faults, poor brood, poor honey collectors or bad temperament then they are requeened with mated queens.
We have requeened with cells sometimes but I have doubts about drone quality at some of our sites.
How much do you pay for a queen? In Oz it is about A$30 for less than 50, while cells are A$5.

I paid $37.50 for the last ones that I bought in September. I think that they can be had from $25 up depending on who the supplier is.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Michael Bush on December 09, 2019, 08:45:43 am
By routine requeening we passively select for bees who can't sense a failing queen and replace her.  So not only do I think it's a waste of money and time, I think it is a really bad idea.  Now if a colony is not thriving and not replacing their queen, I will requeen them.  But I would much rather that they would sense she is failing and replace her.  In nature this is strongly selected for because if they don't they are out of the gene pool.  Any selection that we avoid letting it happen is being passively selected against.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Oldbeavo on December 10, 2019, 06:02:19 pm
Requeening for temperament is active selection, I wish the bees would realise they are cranky and supersede.

Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Ben Framed on December 11, 2019, 01:06:15 am
By routine requeening we passively select for bees who can't sense a failing queen and replace her.  So not only do I think it's a waste of money and time, I think it is a really bad idea.  Now if a colony is not thriving and not replacing their queen, I will requeen them.  But I would much rather that they would sense she is failing and replace her.  In nature this is strongly selected for because if they don't they are out of the gene pool.  Any selection that we avoid letting it happen is being passively selected against.

Mr Bush you have more knowledge in your little finger than I am likely to have for the rest of my life, even if I study night and day. For this reason and others, I have great respect for you, as I have stated before you are a legend in my way of thinking, sort of like EF Hutton, when you talk I listen. 
 :grin:

I am looking at your point about nature and the gene pool. A few years back, as I understand it folks were seeking feral hives specifically for traits that the ferals had acquired after years living in the wild and on their own without the interference mankind. For one example wild bees were known to have the natural cell size of small cell as mankind had placed oversized foundation through the years to strive for a bigger bee.

I also noticed Oldbeavo made excellent points as why to requeen, as opposed to letting the bees do it themselves naturally (so to speak). I am thinking that Oldbeavo is a commercial keeper. Gentleness as he stated is a great point and quality for someone who spends so much time handling their bees.
Other points for breeding for a kind of bee may be great reproduction qualities, less tendency to swarm qualities, mite fighting abilities, disease fighting ability etc. Most of these traits should be found in natural requeening situations as you describe, except I question if natural selection passes on less tendency to swarm?  These are all great reasons in themselves to Breed for specific Traits. After all, even brother Adam was seeking and breeding for a better bee in his time as I understand it. I think diversity is good.

I encourage you to press on desiring for the most natural. It is good and comforting to know that your type bee is here living and thriving well. I am grateful to you and your many years of experimenting and piling up the information from the years of hard knocks, as well as sharing that same information. I believe the natural bee will always be desired from breeders from time to time to revamp the qualities that I mentioned, to strengthen their gene pool.

I also equally want to encourage folks like Mr Van who are researching and striving to press on in seeking the desired traits that they seek in the (perfect bee), (the ultimate bee), such as I mentioned before, gentleness, reproduction qualities, less tendency to swarm qualities, mite fighting abilities, disease fighting ability etc.  Therefore I do not think it is a waste of money and time to seek a better bee by breeders, such as Mr Van. Just as many Canadians breed a bee suited for their environment and needs. Now let me say, I have limited time in beekeeping and my foot will probably be my dinner tonight for saying as much as I have said, and maybe crow pie for desert.  :grin:

I feel pretty comfortable in saying that there are many ways to raise bees and different ways and reasons to replace queens commercially. I salute each of you. And thank each of you for responding to this topic. Van, iddee, coolbees, Oldbeavo, Michael Bush. You have each placed some good insight and considerations which are appreciated.
Phillip   
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Michael Bush on December 11, 2019, 08:35:43 am
I always requeen if I have a good reason.  Like a failing queen or a hot hive.  I'm just saying routine requeening just because the queen is old is passively selecting against the ability to sense a failing queen.  If they are not sensing the failing queen, I would not wait around for them.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Ben Framed on December 11, 2019, 08:53:11 am
Good reasoning, thank you Mr Bush.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: van from Arkansas on December 11, 2019, 10:20:52 am
M. Bush:  In nature this is strongly selected for because if they don't they are out of the gene pool.  Any selection that we avoid letting it happen is being passively selected against.

Good morning Mr. Bush, I wish to address the above statement which is in error.  Unfortunately the Drones survive from a weak failing hive and continue to pass on undesirable traits.  They are not out of the gene pool as stated, would be nice if they were but the drones as you know are readily accepted with the majority of hives.
Blessings
Van

Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Michael Bush on December 11, 2019, 10:36:50 am
Obviously they may have already passed on their genes before the colony dies, but that particular colony will no longer contribute.  All their drones will be dead within six weeks at the most.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: van from Arkansas on December 11, 2019, 11:49:31 am
If the drone passes on his genetic data, the drone immediately dies.  The drones looking for a queen, mature drones, can sense a failing hive and head for greener pastures.  The science is very clear, drones from healthy hives are known for entering foreign healthy hives and are readily accepted.  This is documented by many studies.  Accepted as common knowledge, drone migration, africian, Italian, etc. has been documented so many times by so many authors in so many countries with every known species of Apis mellifera, sp.
Blessings
Van






Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Oldbeavo on December 11, 2019, 04:11:31 pm
As this is comment that may not be fact I am open to other opinions.
"The second season queen will slow down her laying as winter approaches earlier than a first season queen."
The reason this is important is that bees bred in Autumn are the pollinators for almonds, we need good hives, 8 frames of bees, to go to almonds.
If a hive slows down too early in Autumn, all we are left with at the end of winter is the geriatrics which are dying off, and so can't make the standard to go pollinating. Due to our climate the bees slow down dramatically in Winter, where up north, same as Florida they can breed bees most of the year is the feed is available.
So we have an artificial selection for hard laying queens that go against their natural instincts.

So do I requeen annually for more winter bees?
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: van from Arkansas on December 11, 2019, 04:34:01 pm
Mr. Beavo, I always appreciate your post.  Across the planet from me you are.  So I always find your way of bee keeping to be interesting.  I take what you say as fact.  Almonds in Fall sounds strange to me, I always think of February, our Spring and location is in California.

Do you requeen in Fall?  I leave that answer to you, I would be presumptuous to answer.    By the way, are you still Varroa free?
Thanks for your post, always interesting to me.
Cheers
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Oldbeavo on December 12, 2019, 06:11:58 am
Mr Van
The bees bred in Autumn are the bees that overwinter and pollinate almonds in early Spring. (My poor expression has confused the situation) We go to almonds on the 1st of August. So if poor breeding in Autumn the population will be down in late July when we audit our bees for almonds.
On our calender August is the last month of winter (officially) but feels like the first month of spring.
In our area Canola flowers about 7-10th August, while apples and pears are about 20-25th September.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Ben Framed on December 12, 2019, 06:46:36 am
Oldbeavo, is your Continent still Varroa free? 
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Oldbeavo on December 12, 2019, 04:05:18 pm
Hi Ben
At present we are still free of Varroa.
A lot of work is done to try and keep it that way. They have sentinel hives around all the ports for early detection.
All bee keepers are encouraged to do sugar shakes and drone larvae inspection.
I have enough work now without the  extra Varroa would add.
There has been an explosion of amateur bee keeper in our state, last official figures for all bee keepers were 4000+, but only 230 have more than 50 hives.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Ben Framed on December 12, 2019, 07:08:50 pm
I am glad to hear that the varroa iis being held at bay in your country. Hopefully the new beekeepers will understand just how important it is to do everything possible to keep it that way.  I do not know what the stats are here in America on our  number of beekeepers, but unfortunately the varroa is here to stay along with SHB. What a mess, but manageable.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: TheHoneyPump on December 16, 2019, 04:53:25 pm
A brief response to the original question. ... it depends ...   Much depends on the business model, specifically if have a program for raising queens in-house or ifbuying/importing queens.
Basically for the in-house queens:
- Let the bees bee bees as best they can bee
- Purposeful re-queen only the hives that have to be. The decision is based on colony health and performance, temperament, and the timing within the annual cycle of the seasons.
- In large apiaries, each queen is not monitored nor managed at a detail level. Each hive is assessed and managed holistically at the colony level. The queen is just one member of the colony, albeit the most important one.  Hive management decisions are made within a minute of cracking the lid, at the hive level, and the beekeeper moves on.
- The bees will often re-queeen themselves without the beekeeper even noticing. In good colonies, good genetics, only when queens are marked will the change of reign be noticed.  In the poor genetics, the poor colonies fall flat during a supercedure period and these are promptly culled by the beekeeper.
- In a commercial environment the queens are pushed hard.  She is done and gone in 2 years.  Her lifespan typically goes like this:  Raised spring/summer 1, winter 1, production summer 2, winter 2, spring 3 she is split / superseded / replaced at least 6 weeks before main flow season.  If she is exceptional, she will survive the spring split and go on to rebuild to a production level hive for the summer.  By the fall she has swarmed or been superseded or the hive has gone queenless and falls flat in September.
- Commercial hive management is merciless, generally.  There is no such thing as -wait and see- stance taken with a hive.  Exception being in small mating nucs.  Queens and colonies are culled ruthlessly.  Only the proven prominent get through to survive.
- This following comment is depended and skewed entirely on the business operating model.  In my personal practice/experience, re-queening commercially has become quite rare.  The practice is to cull, combine, replace at the colony level.  This is done through a continuous program of stocking nucleus colonies.  The method of re-queening by (a single bug in a cage) has become a rare exception applied to a very limited one week window in mid-April in desperation to backstop a season against unusually heavy winter losses to both the main apiary stock and the nucleus colony stock.


Hope that helps, in some way.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Ben Framed on December 16, 2019, 09:47:22 pm
A brief response to the original question. ... it depends ...   Much depends on the business model, specifically if have a program for raising queens in-house or ifbuying/importing queens.
Basically for the in-house queens:
- Let the bees bee bees as best they can bee
- Purposeful re-queen only the hives that have to be. The decision is based on colony health and performance, temperament, and the timing within the annual cycle of the seasons.
- In large apiaries, each queen is not monitored nor managed at a detail level. Each hive is assessed and managed holistically at the colony level. The queen is just one member of the colony, albeit the most important one.  Hive management decisions are made within a minute of cracking the lid, at the hive level, and the beekeeper moves on.
- The bees will often re-queeen themselves without the beekeeper even noticing. In good colonies, good genetics, only when queens are marked will the change of reign be noticed.  In the poor genetics, the poor colonies fall flat during a supercedure period and these are promptly culled by the beekeeper.
- In a commercial environment the queens are pushed hard.  She is done and gone in 2 years.  Her lifespan typically goes like this:  Raised spring/summer 1, winter 1, production summer 2, winter 2, spring 3 she is split / superseded / replaced at least 6 weeks before main flow season.  If she is exceptional, she will survive the spring split and go on to rebuild to a production level hive for the summer.  By the fall she has swarmed or been superseded or the hive has gone queenless and falls flat in September.
- Commercial hive management is merciless, generally.  There is no such thing as -wait and see- stance taken with a hive.  Exception being in small mating nucs.  Queens and colonies are culled ruthlessly.  Only the proven prominent get through to survive.
- This following comment is depended and skewed entirely on the business operating model.  In my personal practice/experience, re-queening commercially has become quite rare.  The practice is to cull, combine, replace at the colony level.  This is done through a continuous program of stocking nucleus colonies.  The method of re-queening by (a single bug in a cage) has become a rare exception applied to a very limited one week window in mid-April in desperation to backstop a season against unusually heavy winter losses to both the main apiary stock and the nucleus colony stock.


Hope that helps, in some way.

This does help Mr HP. Thanks for giving a full in depth look at what is seen and looked for from the eyes of a commercial keeper. Very informative and interesting as well. I thank you for your response.
Phillip


.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Oldbeavo on December 17, 2019, 04:05:59 pm
Very interesting Honey Pump. We have started that if you are in a hive for any reason and find the queen then mark her. The supercedure is relatively high, especially in hives that are not the top performers and you go back to check what they are up to.
We tend to go through most of our hives in early spring and make nucs as swarm control, in this process we will note (write on lid) below average, Fizzy, ageing queen etc. This builds a history for potential requeening.
It is common for an early spring below average hive to get itself back on track, but other don't and are requeened. So in late spring the hives will be assessed and requeened.
We would average 30% over most of the apriaries.
As we are migratory then where bees are in spring can effect apriaries, on group must have swarmed, superceded or wahetever in an area of mean drones as we have requeened 60% of this apriary, mostly due to temperament. Even I put the gloves on to deal with these mongrels.
Poor brood pattern, shotty, erratic, or just not enough brood is a common requeening reason. I know this gets down to a commercial decision, if I wait will they rectify it by requeening, or just do it now and get the hive back into production, we end up with "do it now".
The other question in commercial requeening is what is the take %? What is the % of requeened hives that are not up to standard?
Are you getting good value from your queen purchases?
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: van from Arkansas on December 17, 2019, 07:03:31 pm
Honey Pump, where ya been.  So good to see ya post!!!  You have certain open my eyes to commercial operations and a different way of bee management.  I only see thur the tired old eyes of a small hobbyist that adore raising bees with focus on my precious queens.  I enjoy your post, HP.

Cheers
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: van from Arkansas on December 17, 2019, 07:58:35 pm
I always requeen if I have a good reason.  Like a failing queen or a hot hive.  I'm just saying routine requeening just because the queen is old is passively selecting against the ability to sense a failing queen.  If they are not sensing the failing queen, I would not wait around for them.

Mr. Bush: I agree natural selection inwhich I believe you are a proponent of regarding honey bees is the apex of nature?s crafting, curtailing creatures for the absolute best vitality which is same as longevity, of any species as weakness is slowly weaned out and strength is directed towards infinite survival of the species.  In short, survival of the fittest to which I absolutely agree.

However, as one species evolves to overcome stress caused by another organism, say a parasite, the parasite also evolves to overcome host evolved defenses.  Thus we have the wax moth and foulbrood discussed in length by Langstroth  in his book the Hive and the HoneyBee, A Bee Keepers Manual, 1850.  The honey bee has yet to evolve natural defenses to moths, foulbrood, despite selecting for survival for the past 150 years.

So natural selection at least with regards to the honey bee is not a cure all, just give it time sort of thing. The loss of the ability for supersedure is your argument if we requeen on a timely basis.  At least that is what I ascertain from your above text.  So I am not so sure about selecting against supersedure as I requeen.  Supersedure is a process by the honeybees that we have little understanding of and selection against or for this phenomenon reminds me of the selection and weaning of honey bees against wax moths.
More later,,,,,
Cheers 


I hate to mention Varroa because requeening is the subject matter.  Hopefully BenFramed will forgive me for changing subject.  There are species of honey bees in Europe that evolved resistance to Varroa.  The catch is those bees have been cultivated for thousands of years.  My point is evolution takes a long time, I doubt requeening will generate bees, or evolve bees, that lose the ability to detect the need for supersedure.

Blessings
Van
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Oldbeavo on December 18, 2019, 06:50:28 am
Waiting for bees with poor brood, shotty, to supercede is commercially costly. When you wait and nothing happens you get very little honey from that hive, If they do supercede then do I get more of the same as they have used an egg from the poor brood queen.
Is shotty, poor brood pattern (resulting in not enough bees in the hive) hereditry or is it the result of other factors?
I know Chalk brood and EFB will result in poor brood, but even when these are not present the brood pattern is poor then we requeen.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: van from Arkansas on December 18, 2019, 10:04:50 am
OldBeavo, well said.  Agreed.

Cheers
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Michael Bush on December 20, 2019, 12:58:36 pm
If a colony is failing, I would always requeen.  Waiting likely won't help, though sometimes a queen is new (they already replaced her) and she hasn't hit her stride yet.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Oldbeavo on December 20, 2019, 04:09:17 pm
If the bees replace the queen or you requeen the hive the new queen is stuck with the brood pattern left by the old queen, eggs beside capped cells etc and so the space to lay is where brood hatches but has capped brood around it.
From a very knowledgeable bee keeper came the advice that if you requeen a hive for poor brood the give it 2 new drawn out frames for her to start to lay in. This will give you a chance to assess your new queen and to let some of the old brood hatch.
You learn something every time you talk with a bee keeper.
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Ben Framed on December 20, 2019, 04:13:26 pm
If the bees replace the queen or you requeen the hive the new queen is stuck with the brood pattern left by the old queen, eggs beside capped cells etc and so the space to lay is where brood hatches but has capped brood around it.
From a very knowledgeable bee keeper came the advice that if you requeen a hive for poor brood the give it 2 new drawn out frames for her to start to lay in. This will give you a chance to assess your new queen and to let some of the old brood hatch.
You learn something every time you talk with a bee keeper.

Excellent advise!
Phillip
Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: Troutdog on December 27, 2019, 10:11:20 am
By routine requeening we passively select for bees who can't sense a failing queen and replace her.  So not only do I think it's a waste of money and time, I think it is a really bad idea.  Now if a colony is not thriving and not replacing their queen, I will requeen them.  But I would much rather that they would sense she is failing and replace her.  In nature this is strongly selected for because if they don't they are out of the gene pool.  Any selection that we avoid letting it happen is being passively selected against.
So I struggle with that as I often think the parameters that led to failing queen are still present in hive whatever it was i.e. nutrition nosema
Failing queen hives need some attention on multiple levels.
My new favorite selection criteria is hives that frequent themselves in spring. This is a neat trick or bad queen rearing in july.
Cheers

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Commercial re-queening question
Post by: van from Arkansas on December 27, 2019, 11:01:47 pm
If the bees replace the queen or you requeen the hive the new queen is stuck with the brood pattern left by the old queen, eggs beside capped cells etc and so the space to lay is where brood hatches but has capped brood around it.
From a very knowledgeable bee keeper came the advice that if you requeen a hive for poor brood the give it 2 new drawn out frames for her to start to lay in. This will give you a chance to assess your new queen and to let some of the old brood hatch.
You learn something every time you talk with a bee keeper.

I agree with Ben Framed, excellent idea.  Thank you again Mr. Beavo.
Cheers
Van