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Author Topic: Standard length for bottom board?  (Read 5688 times)

Offline Acebird

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2017, 10:02:48 am »
By the same token OMF allows and easier access to the hive from wax moth ...

I've always found that the best way of gaining knowledge is to ask questions, rather than to make ill-informed assumption-based assertions.

Not every active hive is in England.  I don't disagree with your explanation but I have read hundreds of posts from southern beekeepers who have had serious problems with wax moths using an OMF.  There is more to it then just debris in the bottom of a hive.  Every swarm is weak when if first starts and no natural hive has an OMF.  How do they make it in the first few weeks?  FWIW I use OMF called screen bottom boards (SBB) and do not have wax moth issues where I live.  But just like England not all hives exist in Upstate NY.
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2017, 12:49:31 pm »
Well there go..!.. how dandy, 'cos I do not see any use for top entrances !  Bees don't see this either
as "bees always go up".... in all things.

This has caused me to do an experiment. I do not believe that "bees always go up". If that is the case how do top bar hives work? I have never heard of a bottom bar hive. Do they work the same? Don't the bees build comb on the top bar and work down? That was always my experience. With this in mind I set a 5 frame nuc on top of an empty box 5 frame box. We are currently in the middle of a goldenrod flow and I can smell the honey just walking down wind from my hives. We will see if the bees build down. My bet is that they will. I have never seen bees build comb up. Maybe it's a hemisphere thing like toilets flushing in the wrong direction in the southern hemisphere.

As far as top vs bottom entrances, it is personal preference. If you want bottom entrances, go for it. Don't let me stop you. I don't want bottom entrances for 2 reasons, one is rodents. My wife's fe-lion is good but for every rodent she catches/eats there are several more for future meals. The other is that when I am working my hives I like to wear shorts and sandals. Yes working from the back of the hive helps but I find that I get very few if any stings on my legs and feet with top entrances. When I do get stung on my feet it is usually because I step on one that is on the ground.

At the end of September when I steal some honey I will be sure to post how the bees build down rather than up.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2017, 05:43:17 pm »
Beekeeping is local.  I had my hives on tall stands until I got tired of them blowing over in the wind.  I had bottom entrances until I got tired of the skunks.  I had ten frame deeps until I got tired of lifting 90 pound boxes.  I had medium ten frame boxes until I got tired of lifting 60 pound boxes.  It seems like most top bar hives have legs.  My first ones did.  After the wind flipped them upside down I took the legs off...  Apparently legs are useful for people who live where the wind doesn't blow... I have about half and half screened bottom boards (OMF) and solid.  I have decided the bees and I prefer the solid ones for a variety of reasons.  I don't care for the wax moth larvae on the bottom tray in the screened bottom boards, but they have never infested a healthy colony from there.  Every colony I took out of a tree had a pile of debris full of wax moths at the bottom.  This seems to be the natural state of a bee colony.

One consistent problem for bees is getting rid of moisture.  In the summer to dry nectar and to cool the hive and in the winter to get rid of metabolic waste (CO2 and H2O).  Moist air rises.  Why not let it out?

http://bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#topentrance
http://bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm

My only use for any entrance other than the top is when queen rearing and I have an excluder in place and I need to let the drones out.

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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2017, 09:55:39 pm »
Beekeeping is local.  I had my hives on tall stands until I got tired of them blowing over in the wind.  I had bottom entrances until I got tired of the skunks.  I had ten frame deeps until I got tired of lifting 90 pound boxes.  I had medium ten frame boxes until I got tired of lifting 60 pound boxes.  It seems like most top bar hives have legs.  My first ones did.  After the wind flipped them upside down I took the legs off...  Apparently legs are useful for people who live where the wind doesn't blow... I have about half and half screened bottom boards (OMF) and solid.  I have decided the bees and I prefer the solid ones for a variety of reasons.  I don't care for the wax moth larvae on the bottom tray in the screened bottom boards, but they have never infested a healthy colony from there.  Every colony I took out of a tree had a pile of debris full of wax moths at the bottom.  This seems to be the natural state of a bee colony.

One consistent problem for bees is getting rid of moisture.  In the summer to dry nectar and to cool the hive and in the winter to get rid of metabolic waste (CO2 and H2O).  Moist air rises.  Why not let it out?

http://bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#topentrance
http://bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm

My only use for any entrance other than the top is when queen rearing and I have an excluder in place and I need to let the drones out.
I have not yet had an issue with wind blowing my hives over. It could happen but I currently have them where they are somewhat protected from the wind. I have my bees in 5 over 5 nucs with another 5 frame box for surplus honey. As I migrate to mediums I will winter them 3 high.

Beekeeping is local. What works in upstate New Yuk won't work everywhere. What works in Florida certainly won't work here. It is also personal preference. You for example like 8 frame mediums. I like nuc boxes. Either is fine and so are 10 frame deeps. I don't want to lift them but for someone in better shape than me feel free... Just be careful of your back.

I am pretty sure however that bees will work down rather than up. I always need to move a frame of comb up when I add another box because they don't seem to know what to do with empty space on top. Probably if I wasn't to cheap to buy foundation it wouldn't be necessary.

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All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Acebird

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2017, 08:34:58 am »
I have my bees in 5 over 5 nucs with another 5 frame box for surplus honey.

To leave your bees in this configuration makes timing and attention critical.  It is not practical for most beekeepers.
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2017, 02:20:12 pm »
I have my bees in 5 over 5 nucs with another 5 frame box for surplus honey.

To leave your bees in this configuration makes timing and attention critical.  It is not practical for most beekeepers.

Probably not but it works for me. My reason for doing this is because I am trying to increase my colony count. This allows the bees to build up and then I can take frames of brood to create new colonies. What works for me won't work for everybody. I never said it would. I did say that it is personal preference. It was really nice this spring however to take one colony and split it into 3 because it had the swarm cells to do it. They are all doing quite well and I was even able to take frames of brood and honey with the addition of a queen and make 4 more colonies. Yes, it takes attention but I manage quite well.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline eltalia

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2017, 12:57:57 am »
(edit)
One consistent problem for bees is getting rid of moisture.  In the summer to dry nectar and to cool the hive and in the winter to get rid of metabolic waste (CO2 and H2O).  Moist air rises.  Why not let it out?



: smiles:

Crikey Michael..!.. I didn't count on my simple mantra elicting such depths of
prose - I'll have to ready myself for the barrage likely prompted by my forthcoming
treatise on airpaths.. heh ... somebody yelled "incoming!!" ?? :-))))
In the meantime think about the 'rule' in terms of first movements...like just as you
don't jump in your LH drive truck to then take the RH lane, going forward, so does
not the bee fly into the hollow space to begin building comb on the floor, going forward.
It is that first move that sets the format for bees, it is always up.
Whether under your veil, leaving a landing board or trapout, storing honey/pollon on a
frame or indeed a queen setting a laying pattern... bees go up!
Is there light ? :-))

Cheerio...

Bill

Online BeeMaster2

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2017, 01:05:15 am »
Bill,
Not sure if you are pulling our legs but bees in a hollow void will almost always build from the top down. As the comb grown, they will eventually move the brood to the bottom and place the honey on top.
Jim

Offline eltalia

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2017, 01:44:15 am »
Bill,
Not sure if you are pulling our legs but bees in a hollow void will almost always build from the top down. As the comb grown, they will eventually move the brood to the bottom and place the honey on top.
Jim

Yep, they go up, as the first movement.. just as you lay out.
No leg pulling going on Jim.. it ia an important "first principle".
I recall you yourself saying SHB were herded to the top of a box under the inner cover. Not
knowing anything about SHB at the time I was not surprised to read that, as, bees go up.
Another example?
Place a frame of bees on a stand, smoke them... now which direction do they head?
Drop to the floor/ground? NO, they go up, every time. Try it for yourself.



Cheers.

Bill

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2017, 12:17:11 pm »
> so does not the bee fly into the hollow space to begin building comb on the floor, going forward. It is that first move that sets the format for bees, it is always up.

Obviously they do not build comb up unless fooled or tricked into it.  They move into any hollow and build comb from the top down.  We as beekeepers create the artificial situation of empty space overhead and the bees fill they have to fix it because there should not be empty space overhead...
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2017, 02:57:34 pm »
Like I said in a previous post... It must be a southern hemisphere thing like toilets flushing backwards.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline eltalia

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2017, 03:30:10 pm »
Like I said in a previous post... It must be a southern hemisphere thing like toilets flushing backwards.
   : smiles:
Yet funnily enough, Michael - for bees going up in example of comb
building - has explained the principle with;
They move into any hollow and build comb from the top down.  We as beekeepers create the artificial situation of empty space overhead and the bees fill[sic] they have to fix it because there should not be empty space overhead...

soooooo... by your 'reasoning', Michael's dunny flushes "backwards"?

Tellya what... the day I see bees going down to build comb from the bottom up I'll
be sure to fetch the trusty blunderbus so I kin ketch me one of them there
flying pigs, hey!
   : laughs:


Cheers.

Bill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2017, 04:49:18 pm »
Tellya what... the day I see bees going down to build comb from the bottom up I'll
be sure to fetch the trusty blunderbus so I kin ketch me one of them there
flying pigs, hey!
   : laughs:


I have seen comb built from the bottom up but not so pretty as the comb they build from the top down.
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Offline herbhome

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2017, 06:31:32 pm »
Like I said in a previous post... It must be a southern hemisphere thing like toilets flushing backwards.
   : smiles:
Yet funnily enough, Michael - for bees going up in example of comb
building - has explained the principle with;
They move into any hollow and build comb from the top down.  We as beekeepers create the artificial situation of empty space overhead and the bees fill[sic] they have to fix it because there should not be empty space overhead...

soooooo... by your 'reasoning', Michael's dunny flushes "backwards"?

Tellya what... the day I see bees going down to build comb from the bottom up I'll
be sure to fetch the trusty blunderbus so I kin ketch me one of them there
flying pigs, hey!
   : laughs:


Cheers.

Bill


This is about bottom boards, right? :wink:
Neill

Offline paus

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2017, 07:10:53 pm »
This week I checked a hive that was building comb from the bottom up on a frame that had no guide strip on the top.  Don't know if this would have made a difference, as has been quoted many times  "the bees haven't read the book".  I am thinking new queen, different genetics, upside comb may just be in their genes.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2017, 07:36:52 pm »
" This is about bottom boards, right? :wink:"
Yep, was... looking like it's (topic) moved up :wink:

Cheers.

Bill

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2017, 09:18:10 pm »
I checked my nuc today. It isn't completely filled but big surprise... The girls built comb down.

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All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Lautrec

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2021, 05:44:11 am »
Honey bees are much more logical than humans. And humans, in general, are much more logical than beekeepers, which means that honey bees and their keepers are often at odds, especially when it comes to building comb. Honey bees in the modern world have many problems their foremothers didn’t have. Those problems include pesticides, diseases, parasites, and humanity all over the place. Give them a chance to handle their issues without forcing them to act on your schedule. You will probably get more honey faster if you stop trying to “trick” them into making comb. Just relax and let them work at their own hectic pace. By the way, related to the standard length for the bottom plate, I calculated how many kg the hive has after I transformed from kg to lbs and I was given approximately 20.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 05:09:00 am by Lautrec »

Online BeeMaster2

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Re: Standard length for bottom board?
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2021, 09:52:25 am »
Lautrec,
Welcome to Beemaster.
Jim Altmiller