Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => NATURAL & ORGANIC BEEKEEPING METHODS => Topic started by: Robo on November 05, 2009, 03:07:55 pm

Title: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Robo on November 05, 2009, 03:07:55 pm
One week from today is the next WpN podcast  and we will be having Corwin Bell as our special guest talking about bee guardianship and top bar hives.   Even if you keep bee in Langstroth hives, I'm sure you will find Corwin's discussion on bees guardianship both interesting and applicable.

Quote from: From BeeGuardian.org
A Bee Guardian is interested, in aiding bees as a species in order to recapture their genetic vitality and diversity. Bee Guardians utilize beekeeping methods that respect the honeybee and oversee the local environment, ensuring it to be safe for the bees.

The Bee Guardian is committed to the nature of the bee, allowing the bees to maintain a strong immune system through organic practices and methods that do not overly stress the colonies. In this way our local strains will begin a process of natural selection, building up immunity against diseases and adapting to changes in local climate. The bees will have a consistent home and environment enabling them to reestablish genetic diversity by reallocating fitness resources toward adaptive evolution rather then hanging on the thread of pure survival in a extremely demanding mechanized beekeeping industry.

Here is a video of Corwin Bell talking at the 2008 Organic Beekeeping Conference in Oracle, Arizona.

CorwinandKelly.WMV (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260942705130101969)

Check out all the details of the podcast here -> http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,25093.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,25093.0.html)


Don't miss next month's podcast with Monica Warner, as she takes us through an overview of making soaps, lotions, and balms using products from our hives.

Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: David LaFerney on November 30, 2009, 11:47:50 am
You know I love the concept of natural and organic, but I really don't get the "let 'em die" philosophy.  What is the logical argument against requeening instead?  What we really need is for some of these people who claim to have varroa resistant hygenic strains to raise and distribute queens for that purpose.  Interesting discussion though.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: bigbearomaha on November 30, 2009, 01:12:23 pm
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What we really need is for some of these people who claim to have varroa resistant hygenic strains to raise and distribute queens for that purpose.

That is part of our objective where  I am.

Big Bear
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: David LaFerney on November 30, 2009, 01:22:07 pm
I'm still listening - very interesting discussion about how hives go into build up (rather than swarm) mode in the early spring because they are small at that time - like your (Robo) overwintered nucs or the hives that have had a "simulated bear attack"  - more confirmation of my emerging theory that I (and other small bee keepers that want to be sustainable) need to learn to raise queens and keep several nucs going all the time.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Robo on November 30, 2009, 01:38:41 pm
You know I love the concept of natural and organic, but I really don't get the "let 'em die" philosophy.  What is the logical argument against requeening instead?  What we really need is for some of these people who claim to have varroa resistant hygenic strains to raise and distribute queens for that purpose.  Interesting discussion though.

How did I get my varroa tolerant bees?    I had to separate them from the non-tolerant bees and the only way that I knew how to do that was let those that weren't tolerant perish.  By the time you determine they are not going to make it, it is too late in the year and requeen is not feasible.   How do I add diversity to my bees?   All the removals/trapouts I do get put in an isolated yard and are left untreated for at least one year before I move them into my queen yards.   If I just requeened them, I wouldn't be adding to my diversity which I believe is key to maintaining the strongest, healthiest bees.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: David LaFerney on November 30, 2009, 02:37:22 pm
 By the time you determine they are not going to make it, it is too late in the year and requeen is not feasible.


If you monitor mite population of all hives it seems to me that you should be able to have at least an idea of which hives are more and less resistant so that you can take action before all is lost.  The same SBB/oil trap that I'm using for SHB allows constant monitoring of mite drop as well.

BTW, if you have a queen, can you not requeen just about any time that weather allows you to open the hive and remove the old one?  In my neck of the woods that is likely to happen for a few days every single month.

How do I add diversity to my bees?   All the removals/trapouts I do get put in an isolated yard and are left untreated for at least one year before I move them into my queen yards.   If I just requeened them, I wouldn't be adding to my diversity which I believe is key to maintaining the strongest, healthiest bees.


If you raise open mated queens why would you not be getting all of the genetic diversity that is available in your area?  The queen is only 1/2 of the genetics - unless there is something that I don't know yet about bee genetics.  Of course if you are in an area that is saturated with commercial bees it would be a problem, but in that case your feral stock would probably be mostly Italians anyway.

I'm not arguing - I'm confident you're knowledgeable.  I'm just thinking there might be more than one route to arrive at the same destination.  One that doesn't involve just letting them die.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Kathyp on November 30, 2009, 02:52:45 pm
david, i don't know what robo does, but i have pretty much quit doing mite counts.  i do look at the boards when i pull them, but even when the mite counts are high, i usually take no action. 

i want not only mite resistant bees, but the best survivor genetics i can get.  you are on the right track thinking about raising your own queens.  before you do that, you want to make sure you have good stock from which to raise them. 

i have gotten my best stuff from cutouts.  swarms are a crap shoot.  just lost one hive that was a late spring swarm.  they probably came from a pollination hive and they never did build up well.  they were not worth saving.  could i have requeened them?  yes.  would i want drones from that hive going into my stock?  no.  better to let them go if they were not going to do well.

i have nothing against treating hives, or trying to save them.  i have just decided that i want to try to propagate survivor stock.  i don't have to worry about loss of income, etc. so i can experiment. 

Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: David LaFerney on November 30, 2009, 02:55:54 pm


i have nothing against treating hives, or trying to save them.  i have just decided that i want to try to propagate survivor stock.  i don't have to worry about loss of income, etc. so i can experiment. 



Yeah, I'll probably be more like that when I have more than 1 hive and 1 nuc. ;)
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Robo on November 30, 2009, 04:05:30 pm
If you monitor mite population of all hives it seems to me that you should be able to have at least an idea of which hives are more and less resistant so that you can take action before all is lost.  The same SBB/oil trap that I'm using for SHB allows constant monitoring of mite drop as well.
I use solid bottom boards and the extent of my mite monitoring is uncapping 10 or so drone brood cells a couple of times a year (not each hive, but just a couple times across all my bees)

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BTW, if you have a queen, can you not requeen just about any time that weather allows you to open the hive and remove the old one?  In my neck of the woods that is likely to happen for a few days every single month.

I don't bank queens, so to requeen I would have to sacrifice a nuc.  I'm more confident with keeping a strong nuc in tact then risking introducing a good queen in a failing hive.  Furthermore,  I like to have a queen go through 3 brood cycles prior to winter to build the hive.

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If you raise open mated queens why would you not be getting all of the genetic diversity that is available in your area?  The queen is only 1/2 of the genetics - unless there is something that I don't know yet about bee genetics.  Of course if you are in an area that is saturated with commercial bees it would be a problem, but in that case your feral stock would probably be mostly Italians anyway.
I'm fortunate enough to have my main rearing yards in isolated areas with no commercial or hobbyist beekeepers in the area.  I have a four mountains of state land behind me and a large reservoir in front. So although I do open mate,  the majority is with my own drone yard and perhaps some feral survivor stock which is a plus.   But I like to expand my genetic pool by continually bringing in other survivor stock every year.

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I'm not arguing - I'm confident you're knowledgeable.  I'm just thinking there might be more than one route to arrive at the same destination.  One that doesn't involve just letting them die.

I'm not arguing either,  and I'm sure there are other ways than what I do.  Everyone must weigh their options and exposures and determine which is the most efficient and productive method for them.    Personally,  I seemed to make no headway on establishing consistent survivor bees until I stopped nursing weaker bees along. 

I understand your thoughts and desires based upon the small number of hives you have.  I struggled through the same dilemma years ago.  It is tough to deal with when loss of a couple hives hits 50% or better of you apiary.  You feel like you will never break out of the cycle.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Kathyp on November 30, 2009, 05:00:25 pm
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If you monitor mite population of all hives it seems to me that you should be able to have at least an idea of which hives are more and less resistant so that you can take action before all is lost

and this does not always hold true.  the hive i just lost did not have a high mite count.  they may  have had other issues.  they may have needed a new queen and i just didn't do it.

i had a hive with a very high mite count earlier this year.  it's one of my cutout hive and the one i have used the most for requeening.  i did not treat it.  they overcame the problem and i got the most honey from this hive......not that it was a great honey year   :-\
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: David LaFerney on November 30, 2009, 06:34:51 pm
Sure Kathy, I know that no matter what there will be losses.  Also mite counts aren't everything - it's just relatively easy to see compared to other diseases.  Just be glad you don't have hive beetles yet - They're sure easy to see. Hopefully they won't survive in your climate. 
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Michael Bush on November 30, 2009, 07:58:00 pm
As long as you keep treating, you keep propagating the bees that can't survive. This is the opposite of what we need. We beekeepers need to be propagating the ones that CAN survive. Also we keep propagating the pests that are strong enough to survive our treatments. So we keep breeding wimpy bees and super pests.

You really need to raise your own queens from local surviving bees. Only then can you get bees who genetically can survive and parasites that are in tune with their host and in tune with their climate. As long as we treat we get weaker bees who can only survive if we treat, and stronger parasites who can only survive if they breed fast enough to keep up with our treatments. No stable relationship can develop until we stop treating.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: heaflaw on December 01, 2009, 12:33:10 am
I agree strongly with Michael, Robo & Kathy, but I would like your opinion to a question.  I keep around 15 to 20 Italians (with some mix of Germans showing up).  I haven't treated for anything in 4 years & have few losses and good harvests, etc.  But, I feel like I need broader genetics ASAP.  How would you advise I do that: 1. Buy VSH/Minn Hyg queens  2. Find survivor ferals  3. Trade with area beekeepers with untreated colonies?
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Robo on December 01, 2009, 07:29:35 am
I prefer survivor ferals, just make sure they are true survivor ferals and not just swarm from some commercial pollinator or other beekeeper.   I have had much better luck sticking with localized bees than purchasing hybridized or bees for the south.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Michael Bush on December 01, 2009, 07:35:16 pm
>But, I feel like I need broader genetics ASAP.

Why?  They seem to be doing well enough.  You may end up killing the goose that laid the golden egg.  :)  Shotgun brood patterns would be the symptom that you need broader genetics.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: heaflaw on December 01, 2009, 11:03:20 pm
>But, I feel like I need broader genetics ASAP.

Why?  They seem to be doing well enough.  You may end up killing the goose that laid the golden egg.  :)  Shotgun brood patterns would be the symptom that you need broader genetics.

My brood patterns seemed worse this year than they used to be: now maybe about 10 to 15% empty cells in most of the hives.  I have one consistently great hive: 4 supers of honey per season and I am fairly certain it's not swarmed in 5 years. The others swarm most every spring and then produce less honey.  If I raise queens from my best hive, the drones will be from the others and I won't get the genetics I want.  Am I shooting for too much or thinking I will have more control than I will?
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Michael Bush on December 02, 2009, 07:12:12 am
If you think the brood patterns are a result of genetics (a real likelyhood) then, yes, you need to bring some in.  But they could also be from chewing out Varroa.  The main difference is the genetic one will be removed sometime between when the egg is laid and shortly after it hatches.  The Varroa get chewed out several days post capping.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: deknow on December 02, 2009, 10:58:51 am
You know I love the concept of natural and organic, but I really don't get the "let 'em die" philosophy.  What is the logical argument against requeening instead?  What we really need is for some of these people who claim to have varroa resistant hygenic strains to raise and distribute queens for that purpose.  Interesting discussion though.

well, a couple of thoughts:

1.  in order to know what hives must be "requeened", one must measure something.  mite counts, removal of frozen brood, etc are things that are easy (and cheap) to measure...but are these metrics that we actually care about?  personally, i'm worried first about survival (which is easy to measure...dead bees didn't survive), and productivity (which is also easy to measure).  mite counts and frozen brood removal are _assumed_ to represent survival, but are flawed.  if you use dna analysis to look at pathogens in a hive, you will near 100% of the time find dwv, sacbrood, efb, and if you look closely enough, probably afb.  is the presence of these pathogens what you want to use as selection criteria?  i don't, i want bees that survive and perform...and i don't care if they are carrying dwv or not.

2.  the idea that treatments can be eliminated merely by buying "magic queens" is flawed.  in fact, i don't know of anyone that has gone cold turkey from treatments simply by purchasing "proven resistant queens".  approach (ie, "success in beekeeping is based on not losing any hives") and managment practices also must be changed.

3.  feral populations of bees that show resistance to varroa (including ahb) are not terribly "hygienic"....indicating that "hygienic behavior" is not the mechanism of resistance used by bees when left to their own devices.  of all these lines of hygienic bees that are touted, i know of no one who has purchased them and stopped treating.  basically, you can get some resistance from selecting for hygienic bees, but no one buying them has demonstrated the ability to use these bees to get off of treatments.  yet, there are lots of beekeepers that started with all kinds of different stock who changed their management practices, started selecting for survivor stock, were willing to lose those that didn't cut the mustard, and who don't treat.  this seems like a "transferable" way to get off treatments..the pure selective breeding has failed for 20 years in this regard.

deknow
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Kathyp on December 02, 2009, 11:44:23 am
Quote
yet, there are lots of beekeepers that started with all kinds of different stock who changed their management practices, started selecting for survivor stock, were willing to lose those that didn't cut the mustard, and who don't treat.  this seems like a "transferable" way to get off treatments..the pure selective breeding has failed for 20 years in this regard.

this was my method...if you can call it a method  :-D

i should also say that it was not because of the religion of 'natural' beekeeping.  i just didn't want the expense and hassle of treating.  i can't claim success.  every year i hold my breath to see what survives and try to replace what doesn't. 
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: deknow on December 02, 2009, 01:31:19 pm
i don't see this as a "religion", anymore than i see the belief in a spherical earth "religious".

when we started keeping bees, we were also gardening quite a bit, and were using ruth stout's methods (in a nutshell...mulch with hay...cover weeds with more hay....let the hay decay into the soil and then add more hay).  there are several excellent books on the subject, but this is really the entire method.

we hated the idea of putting chemicals in the hive...used apistan and menthol the first year....miteaway2 the year after....vaporized oxcalic acid the next...and then we stopped treating all together.  we only stopped losing all of our bees when we regressed to small cell.

but the more i learn, the more i think, the more i see, the crazier it seems that the bulk of beekeepers want to improve the genetics of honeybees by propping them up with chemicals, organic acids, and essential oils.

fwiw we are currently doing a daily market.  there is a farm there that is selling local honey with handwritten labels.  we are selling non-local treatment free honey, we are all beekeepers at our booth, we talk about bees to everyone that comes by, and we offer generous tastes.  i haven't seen a single jar of the other honey sell (i'm sure some did, but not much), and we are doing very well....at twice the price.

deknow
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: David LaFerney on December 02, 2009, 01:42:00 pm
...every year i hold my breath to see what survives and try to replace what doesn't. 

Thank you.  I think "what we have here is a failure to communicate."  Kathy - you're saying that you sometimes (often?) have substantial losses - hopefully not total loses.  You catch swarms and do removals every year and can replace your losses, and in the process you might gain some good genetics. That sounds like it works for you, and for those who can do removals/catches.

But If first year bee keepers (like me) with one or two hives of commercially produced bees take the "let them die" approach how many of them will still have bees in 2 years?  How many of them will just get discouraged and give up?  How many of them will start over with another commercial package, and fail again?  How many will have enough success to even learn what they are doing at all?  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think many would.  

How many of the people with years of experience and don't treat started out that way?  Did anyone who doesn't treat start out all natural with a couple of hives and are still in business after 5 years?  Anyone?  How many hives did you lose in that time?

What I'm saying is this.  I'm a (fairly typical I suspect) first year beekeeper.  I've never handled bees before so I didn't consider swarm catching or removals an option.  I've never even seen a swarm.  

I started with one mail order package of Italian bees from Georgia.  At the end of my first summer I had 1.5 hives (I did a trap out for the .5) and both colonies had some degree of infestation of both varroa and small hive beetles - I never saw a mite until they showed up in the oil traps I built for the SHB.  I had to make a choice - do nothing and probably lose both hives, or intervene.  I did oxalic acid vapor treatments and I think I have a good chance of still having bees in the spring. At which time I know I need to improve my genetics.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that it would be good for beginners to be advised that when they go treatment free they are likely to have substantial losses, and more than just a couple of hives will probably be required to sustain an apiary from year to year - and for that matter to make any progress genetically.

In my case, I've decided to monitor and only treat when I think it is necessary.  To use the lowest impact (on the bees) treatment that I can perceive - oxalic acid at this time.  Raise my own queens from the best stock that I can find - and build my hive numbers to some reasonable level using local genetics.  Then try to get off of treatments.  Yes I know that if you want to quit, sooner or later you have to just quit.

If anyone has a sustainable plan that they have used to go from one or two hives to a small apiary without using any treatments I would really love to hear it - seriously I would.  Sustainable to me means that yearly increase is equal to or greater than average loss.  A little bit of honey every once in a while would be good too. :)

BTW, I've been an organic gardener for years,  and I do hate the idea of putting chemicals in the hives.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: deknow on December 02, 2009, 02:15:23 pm
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that it would be good for beginners to be advised that when they go treatment free they are likely to have substantial losses, and more than just a couple of hives will probably be required to sustain an apiary from year to year - and for that matter to make any progress genetically.

anyone keep track of how many first year beekeepers from their local bee school lose their bees?  those kinds of statistics generally aren't kept simply because they aren't impressive.  michael palmer has some such stats from a club (which, interestingly indicates that requeening a package with a good locally bred queen greatly improves success), and it aint good.

i have this discussion all the time with beekeepers in our club...there is a hard coded mentality that the most important thing is that a new beekeeper has bees that survive.  i'm more inclined to agree with michael bush in that a first year beekeeper should keep an observation hive, even though it is likely to die over the winter.  there is just too much to learn and understand to get it from a book or a web forum.  experience and direct observation is so important to learning and long term success...i'm not sure it's fair to put that kind of pressure on a new beekeeper.  i think if you are a new beekeeper starting with 1 or 2 hives, there is more value in learning more (observation hives, more hive inspections than are ideal for the bees) than there is in taking all measures to keep them alive.

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Raise my own queens from the best stock that I can find - and build my hive numbers to some reasonable level using local genetics.  Then try to get off of treatments.  Yes I know that if you want to quit, sooner or later you have to just quit.
that is what most are trying to do....but there is no good way to select what stock to breed your queens (or drones) from, and you have contaminated equipment.  if the microbial culture in the hive is important (which it is), how do you establish or maintain a healthy one if you are treating?

again, we couldn't keep our bees alive without treatments until we went to small cell...and this is much easier to achieve from a package than from a 1 or 2 year old colony.

Quote
If anyone has a sustainable plan that they have used to go from one or two hives to a small apiary without using any treatments I would really love to hear it - seriously I would.  Sustainable to me means that yearly increase is equal to or greater than average loss.  a little bit of honey every once in a while would be good too. :)
well, that's a tall order.  start with 2 packages with "factory queens", and using only those bees to establish a small apiary.  you will have much better luck if you start with better genetics (feral, local breeder with good practices).  in our experience, we also needed to regress them.  but the issue is time.  if we assume a net colony number gain of 100% a year, then it takes 4 years to get to 16 colonies by this method.  sometimes some money (or "sweat equity") is worth spending.  if you start with 8 colonies instead of 2, you have much less chance of losing all of your hives, you have resources to rear queens and make splits, you have more genetic diversity in your yard (hopefully you followed the above advice and got some kind of local queens), and you get to 16 colonies in one year.  these numbers are just examples of what a few hundred dollars can save you.  ...most importatnly, you will learn more faster with 8 hives than with 2.

deknow
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Kathyp on December 02, 2009, 02:23:59 pm
i think what you are doing is fine.  i would rather have people be successful in beekeeping and keep at it, than feel they must go treatment free, and fail.  

it took me some time and effort to replace my stock.  my losses now are no greater than i had with packaged bees, and most losses can be attributed to either my inattention, or swarms picked up from questionable sources.

the major advantage to me is that my bees take less work and less money.

david, swarms are easy.  cut them down.  pop them in a box.  done.  easier to hive a swarm than a package :-)
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Robo on December 02, 2009, 03:25:44 pm
In my case, I've decided to monitor and only treat when I think it is necessary.  To use the lowest impact (on the bees) treatment that I can perceive - oxalic acid at this time.  Raise my own queens from the best stock that I can find - and build my hive numbers to some reasonable level using local genetics.  Then try to get off of treatments.  Yes I know that if you want to quit, sooner or later you have to just quit.

Although I had more than 2 hives, that is exactly the plan that ended up working for me after years of trying other methods.  I lost a bunch of hives trying all the different incantations of essential oils and FGMO treatments that came through in the early 90s but never had consistent results. The only thing that worked consistently for me was OA. Tried regressing but never got fully there.  Then decided to make it happen with HSC at the same time I started collecting moving towards feral stock.  Thought that was the ticket until I got a run on ferals and couldn't get HSC,  so had no other choice but to put a few of them on some 30 year old large cell and kept an eye on them with the assumption I would need to do OA.  Never happened and they made it through the winter.  Haven't had to use OA in around 5 years now.   I now have quite a few hives doing just as well on large cell as those on natural or HSC.   Have even more with a mix of large, natural and HSC :roll:
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: heaflaw on December 02, 2009, 04:30:13 pm
It seems that it would be advantageous for us successful non treatment beekeepers (I am fairly certain I am in that group) to sell cheap or give away queens or packages to beginning beekeepers in our area.  If beginners did not have to treat from the start, they would be more likely to continue beekeeping.  Also, if all our neighbor's bees were "hygienic", it would prevent the nonhygienic genetics from getting into our hives.   
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: David LaFerney on December 02, 2009, 06:51:36 pm

david, swarms are easy.  cut them down.  pop them in a box.  done.  easier to hive a swarm than a package :-)

Thanks - I hope to do some swarms or removals next season, and I've been putting out the word that I would do that.  I need to make a helmet cam this winter.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: deknow on December 02, 2009, 06:59:34 pm
it would be nice to give away bees to beginners, but there is a problem.

if i'm joenewbeekeeper and someone gives me a nuc of treatment free bees, what do i do when i see my first mite?  when the local inspector/expert tells me i need to treat?  i do what most people do, i put apistan in the hive hoping they will at least make it until next year....and then the comb is contaminated, the microbial balance is disrupted, i'm well down the road to breeding apistan resistant mites, and i'm firmly on the treatment treadmill.

now, what if i paid 2-3 times for the treatment free nuc than most get for a conventional nuc?  first off, i've already decided that being treatment free is worth something more than treated bees.  the demand is high for such bees, and the supply is low (which supports high prices in the marketplace).  now, i see my first mite.  if i put apistan in the hive, i no longer have what i've paid a premium for (treatment free bees)...treating litterally costs me something, even if i "save" the bees.  i'm invested in keeping the bees without treatments.

don't misconstrue this to mean that i've never given away bees or a queen...i have.  but it's the exception, not the rule.

human nature is very consistent in this regard.  if you give away your best bees (especially to beginners who are not likely to be breeding their own, and are looking for the "magic queen"), they are likely to be requeened with some name brand queen with a color advertisement in the magazine.  good queens and good colonies can be quite profitable in your own operation.  if you can't make them produce enough that you are reluctant to part with them, then why would someone else want them?

deknow

deknow
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: David LaFerney on December 02, 2009, 07:02:49 pm
By The Way.  The only reason that I've been able to form a plan for how to go forward is because of all the information that I've been able to get from here.  Even though everyone doesn't agree on everything those of you with experience who are nice enough to give real information are really helpful.

So thanks.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: TwT on December 02, 2009, 09:38:02 pm
I hope to do some swarms or removals next season, and I've been putting out the word that I would do that.  I need to make a helmet cam this winter.

you need a test yard for swarms, I have been having a test yard for about 4 years now for swarms I get calls for, now if one of my hives swarm I will just put them in a box in the same yard but if you are looking to see if a swarm will make it you will need a teat yard, depending on the year I get about 5-25 swarms from around, the survival rate on swarms is about 50 percent here, now I leave my in the test yard for 2 years then I move to another out yard and raise some from them, when I see a very good rate of survival from those hives offspring then I move some of them to a brood yard and raise from them, Like others have said above, I to have my bee's on regular cell foundation, I have been doing hive removals since I started and these are the bee's I raise from and have been having great success.

 I gave away a nuc last year to a young couple (it was their first hive), I been knowing the young lady since she was about 12, I told them all about mites and what I was doing and not to ever treat the hive, since they live about 10 miles from me they call and ask question when they have some and I dont mind helping them out, one thing about having and keeping good survivor bee's is location, I can have 10 of my best hives and if they swarm and cross with a migratory treated bee's or queen producers treated strains then there is a good chance to get the survivor traits breed out of my bee's. you need to have some good location to be successful. The area I am in I would say I didn't see a honeybee for 13 years, there were none here, since I have been here I have had a few swarms get away from me but when you think about it, thats a good thing because it is my bee's that are in the surrounding area and a good way to help flood the area with drone from hives I like. Raising from certain stock has its borders and limits, it takes time and patients and expect to lose hives you get from swarms, its just part of the selection.

  I do buy packages and have a out yard for those also, the reason I buy packages is to help with bee populations in early spring when queen rearing and also drawing out new comb, at the end of the year I will re queen these hives with mine unless I get the Russian hybrids from Hardemans, I will leave those in a out yard to overwinter, and yes I have 9 out yards, a few are empty but will not bee this coming spring. Ok I am tired of typing, later!
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: luvin honey on December 05, 2009, 12:19:52 am
How many of the people with years of experience and don't treat started out that way?  Did anyone who doesn't treat start out all natural with a couple of hives and are still in business after 5 years?  Anyone?  How many hives did you lose in that time?

If anyone has a sustainable plan that they have used to go from one or two hives to a small apiary without using any treatments I would really love to hear it - seriously I would.  Sustainable to me means that yearly increase is equal to or greater than average loss.  a little bit of honey every once in a while would be good too. :)

BTW, I've been an organic gardener for years,  and I do hate the idea of putting chemicals in the hives.
I'm completely with you, David. I don't like "chemicals" for anything in my life, including my hives. I swore I wouldn't do a single thing to prop up my bees, but I started with 2 commercial packages, learned a lot through this year and went into winter with 1 strong split and 2 weak twice-swarmed hives. I ended up doing a lot of sugar feeding.

It IS tough the first year to consider losing the bees. I'm swearing all over again that next year I will do absolutely nothing, including sugar. We'll see. I bet if my good hive is weak come spring I will be out there with sugar after all.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: TwT on December 05, 2009, 02:10:18 am
I'm completely with you, David. I don't like "chemicals" for anything in my life, including my hives. I swore I wouldn't do a single thing to prop up my bees, but I started with 2 commercial packages, learned a lot through this year and went into winter with 1 strong split and 2 weak twice-swarmed hives. I ended up doing a lot of sugar feeding.

It IS tough the first year to consider losing the bees. I'm swearing all over again that next year I will do absolutely nothing, including sugar. We'll see. I bet if my good hive is weak come spring I will be out there with sugar after all.

if you are going to be taking honey from your bee's then sometimes you will have to feed or just let them die, unless someone is in the desert miles away from anyone I dont think they would be organic anyway, to many pesticides in this country and some they don't make anymore that will be around for 100 years or more, feeding your bee's is not treating in my book, when you take your bee's honey you need to replace it at times when they have no other source, what I call treating is when you add chemicals to your hive to rid them of mites or disease's (chemicals and Meds)
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Michael Bush on December 06, 2009, 03:17:58 pm
No matter what you management plan is, the weather may have other plans.  Sooner or later, if you keep bees, you will have to feed, and the next best thing to honey, is syrup made from white granulated sugar.  Anything else has too many things that bees can't digest.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: ziffabeek on January 05, 2010, 05:21:49 pm
Regarding genetics, My hive is in the city, and I'm pretty sure there aren't many other hives within 6-8 miles that didn't come from the person who gave me my hive. 

With a dearth of bees intown, how do I get new genetics?  I want to split my hive, but if they just mate with each other, that's not so good is it?

I would like to build up to only about 4-6 hives, but I really like the whole paradigm of not treating to build resistance (I only take antibiotics if I'm absolutely sure I'm not going to beat it otherwise, or as a post-surgery infection prophylactic).   After reading about bee stomach enzymes, I don't even know if I want to use that Honey-Bee-Healthy stuff everyone recommends.  But I'm stumped on how I will ever be able to do this without (what seems like) no access to feral or long term local colonies.

Any thoughts on this?  Ideas, experiences?

Thanks!

ziffa
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Robo on January 05, 2010, 05:52:40 pm
Purchase queens for your splits from someone in your area , other than the guy you got your hive from if your concerned with diversity.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: heaflaw on January 05, 2010, 10:32:38 pm
Ziffa,

I bet there are some ferals around in people's attics or walls of old buildings or in trees.  They are survivors that will be excellent for providing the drone side of genetics you are looking for.

Does the guy you got your hive from treat?  If not, then you are in an excellent location.  The only genetics that can effect your bees are from hives that don't need treatment.  A lot of beekeepers trying to go natural would envy you.

If he/she does treat, then your hive will need to be treated and it will be risky to stop treating with just one hive.  You might want to look into purchasing a queen from someone as local as possible who doesn't treat or purchase a VSH/Minnesota Hygienics queen or a Russian queen. 

Then like Robo said, every few years, purchase a queen from the nearest person you can find that doesn't treat.  This will keep bringing in diversified genetics and you will be in great shape.

That's my 2 cents worth.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: bigbearomaha on January 06, 2010, 10:49:50 am
personally,  I feel one of the best ways to begin beekeeping is to help another beekeeper for a season before getting your own bees.

Of course, that is subject to how many beekeepers are around in an area and how willing they are to share their time and let others help.

This is one of the reasons  I am starting the conservation yard here.  First and foremost, it's purpose is to be a place to bring those bees that are "rescued" via swarm collections and cutouts.  However, we are allowing people who want to become beekeepers  (or those that already are) to come and gain experience as part of a group before they go to the expense of buying hives and frames, etc....

I would like to encourage more people to open "conservation yards" that take in bees that might otherwise get poisoned or killed as well as provide opportunities for a shared experience.

Big Bear

Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: ziffabeek on January 06, 2010, 11:19:23 am
Thanks Robo and heaflaw, I guess I hadn't thought about just purchasing queens.  I am pretty sure the person I got my bees from treats some, but only when necessary, I'll have to check for sure.  I did not treat this year, because a) I'm new and had no clue how to and b) when I did a fall mite count I didn't see any mites (course this may be an outcome of "a". lol)  They seem strong and healthy but I guess we'll see.  I guess I'll have to go to a bee club meeting and see if I can find someone raising natural queens.

And Papa, you are probably right, I think apprenticing is a great idea.  Unfortunately, my husband agreed to get these bees from the lady, but he is very laissez faire (sp?) so I had to jump in and then I kinda fell in love with them, so I was kinda just thrown into the fire :)  Good think I like it hot.

We will see how it looks in the spring.  And go from there.  Even if I lose them, I know I'll try again. Never been excited by something as much as this (except maybe my husband ;p).

thanks for the advice.  I just found this part of the forums, looks like I have a lot more reading to do!

ziffa
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Michael Bush on January 07, 2010, 01:49:46 pm
There are feral bees all over the place.  Queens will fly as much as six miles to mate.  Drones seldom fly more than a mile.  I wouldn't worry about it until you see shotgun brood patterns.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: ziffabeek on January 08, 2010, 05:08:05 pm
I'm not sure I understand, Michael, (if your post was in response to me).  Do you mean that even if I split and let them make their own queen, I have a good chance of getting some feral drones mating with her, thus getting local genes into my pool?  This would be ideal for me, because I love my queen.  She's strong and the hive is just about as sweet and calm as can be.

I know you are probably right about there being feral hives about, but it is hard for me to believe, because I have never seen any or even heard of them in the city.   But I guess if you think about it, there would really be no reason for me to see them.  Hmmmm.  Then again, if the queens fly up to 6 miles to mate, they can mate with anybody, so I would have no control over the treatment-less-ness of the drone genes.  This is getting complicated. :(

Maybe the plan would be to split next summer and let them make their own queen.  Then the following year, purchase a queen from someone local to start my 3rd hive with, hopefully introducing some new strong gene stuff.  Does that sound ok?

All of this of course is winter rambling to relieve my worry over my poor southern belle queen who is suffering through an inch of snow and prolonged temps in the teens!  God I hope she makes it!

Thanks for listening and advising as always.
ziffa
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: bigbearomaha on January 09, 2010, 10:14:31 am
typically, queens don't fly all that far as long as there are drones relatively close.  Drones from her own colony, drones from other, nearby colonies, including ferals, all find the same Drone Congregation Areas that Queens will fly to.

Big Bear
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Meadlover on January 21, 2010, 05:57:55 pm

What I'm saying is this.  I'm a (fairly typical I suspect) first year beekeeper.  I've never handled bees before so I didn't consider swarm catching or removals an option.  I've never even seen a swarm.  


David,

I'm a 1st year Beek too. So far I have:
Made a nuc by taking 2 frames from my hive, and added a mated queen I bought,
Did a cutout
Did a swarm removal
Am half way through a trapout which are raising their own queen

I see no reason why 1st year beeks shouldn't have a go at doing swarms, cutouts and trapouts. I have found that in the process of doing these I have learnt more about bees than doing anything else, especially with the trapout. It is VERY daunting the 1st time but now it is just fun  :-D.

The cutout I did died (SHB) - learnt heaps about brood, SHB infestation timeline and more
The swarm I collected was/went queenless and is almost dead - learnt heaps about signs and effects of queenless hives, as well as more about SHB infestation and treatments
The trapout I'm still doing is going great - learning more still about SHB and where they hide, emergency queen raising, bee psychology (what makes them tick) etc

I guess as bad as they have turned out, I would prefer to lose those 'free' hives rather than lose several hives that I paid good money for, as I don't plan to make those same mistakes again! The biggest thing that I learn from all of this is that if I had more than 1 hive I probably could have saved those hives by boosting them with brood or bees or both, or eggs to raise an emergency queen etc. I now plan to have at the very least a spare nuc in my backyard, but hope to have a few nucs on the go at once.

I would encourage all 1st year beeks to try to do 1 swarm collection, 1 cutout, and 1 trap out - the amount you can learn is awesome!

ML
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: heaflaw on January 21, 2010, 08:42:02 pm
I've been keeping 15-20 hives for about 12 years.  I know it's difficult for a new beekeeper to lose a hive, but it's just a part of the learning experience.  10-15% loss over winter is average for the best beekeepers.  Some hives are going to die-that's just part of the nature of the honey bee.  Fortunately, it is very easy to increase your number of hives through catching swarms, splits etc.  Don't be afraid to "fail".  It's going to happen.

Sounds like you are gaining a wealth of knowledge & are on your way to becoming a very succesfull beekeeper.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Natalie on February 15, 2010, 10:01:24 pm
Last year was also my first year of beekeeping and I dived right in.
I caught a swarm and did a cutout within two months of getting my first hives.
I also started out my beekeeping with 11 colonies and going foundationless.
I have langstroth hives, topbar hives and a 2 queen hive.
I had a great deal of support and knowledge from the great group of people from this forum which gave me the confidence and know how to do what I did.
I think its better to jump right in and step outside your comfort zone sometimes.
I find that I can do just about anything and then later people will explain all the reasons why I shouldn't have been able to succeed, but I did because I didn't know any better. :)
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: JP on February 16, 2010, 12:58:40 am
This thread is right up my alley, as I have never used treatments of any type and all my bees are from swarms and cut-outs.

I would like to also mention that people get too hung up on a few mites and shbs in their hives. Most all feral colonies have some of each but its all in how the bees deal with them that makes the difference.

I know first hand (being in the pest control field) how chemicals will breed resistant strains, making the parasite stronger than its host, which is not the intent of any bee keeper but is the inevitable outcome if chemicals are used.

There is a treatment free movement larger than ever and never more timely than now folks. Dare to be treatment free and say no to chemicals in your hives.


...JP

 
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: luvin honey on March 21, 2010, 12:10:29 am
I'm completely with you, David. I don't like "chemicals" for anything in my life, including my hives. I swore I wouldn't do a single thing to prop up my bees, but I started with 2 commercial packages, learned a lot through this year and went into winter with 1 strong split and 2 weak twice-swarmed hives. I ended up doing a lot of sugar feeding.

It IS tough the first year to consider losing the bees. I'm swearing all over again that next year I will do absolutely nothing, including sugar. We'll see. I bet if my good hive is weak come spring I will be out there with sugar after all.

Well, spring is here--at least until it snowed today--and the strong hive made it. The twice-swarmed, robbed-blind hives didn't.

I won't be feeding. I won't be treating. I will be swarm trapping and trying one more 2-lb southern package. I would like to do splits from my hives to go into winter with 4 strong hives. I think it will give me more options in case things go wrong.

It's incredible to have the support and advice of so many treatment-free folks on this forum!

I totally agree, as mentioned above, that "organic" is nearly impossible. But, when I'm using some of this wax for lip balm and skin products (not to mention chewing on honeycomb!), I feel better that it is as pure as it can be where I live, that at least I'm not adding any pollutants into the process.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Acebird on December 15, 2010, 06:00:05 pm
Quote
It IS tough the first year to consider losing the bees. I'm swearing all over again that next year I will do absolutely nothing, including sugar. We'll see. I bet if my good hive is weak come spring I will be out there with sugar after all
.

I am not sure what your fear is the bees dying or you loosing the honey.  What is the heading ,“Natural and Organic” beekeepers, right?  If you are an organic farmer you are not going to throw seven on your garden if the bugs take a toll are you.  I am sure there are many first year beekeepers who won’t give up because of losses especially if they know the advantages of natural and organics.  Just do it.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: alfred on December 17, 2010, 11:41:52 am
I'm curious what folks think of his idea of not harvesting until spring. Seems to make some sence to me.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: JP on December 17, 2010, 12:23:43 pm
A good bit of honey that was left on for wintering if not consumed is often granulated, so any pulled in the spring down here goes to feed.


...JP
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Acebird on December 17, 2010, 12:39:44 pm
I was concerned about this too until I started to listen to podcasts that you can get form this site that Robo gave a link to in another topic.

http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/beekeeping-podcasts/ (http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/beekeeping-podcasts/)

I know there is no advertising on the forum but I would recommend ever new beek visit this site for the shear information that is contained within.

My head is spinning with all the conflicting views that occurs amongst beeks but my feeling now is don’t leave all the honey in the top which is what we did this year.  I am certain that where the hive is placed and under what climate will make a huge difference on what method is more successful than another.  So even though you can see or hear about varied practices throughout the world (internet access) the best ones for you will be the ones that are close to home.  That means joining a local club and be active enough to pick their brains.  “Well this is what I do.” doesn’t sound so bad to me anymore.

Just so you know, Utica, NY is at the breaking point when you come to weather patterns.  It makes a huge difference if you travel north, south, east or west by as little as 20 miles when it comes to weather.



Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Scadsobees on December 17, 2010, 01:23:33 pm
I'm curious what folks think of his idea of not harvesting until spring. Seems to make some sence to me.

If the bees don't make it, or you get an all natural mouse in there, they can make a really nasty mess.  They poop all over as they die.  120lbs good only for feeding the other bees.

Not to mention many hives will collect 100s of pounds of honey, WAY overkill, and could tip a hive in the winter.

And the granulation thing.

If you've only got an extra super or two...well...that won't make much difference, you can leave that, and probably you'd only take a few frames anyway for personal use.

Rick   
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Bee Happy on December 17, 2010, 02:01:48 pm
Mine took in a lot of honey in the spring, and the fall crop wasn't a lot, so I just left it for them, I'll probably do that every fall unless they take in a huge haul.
I don't think I'll ever use pesticides in the hive (isn't that what miticides are anyway?)
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Acebird on December 17, 2010, 05:53:00 pm
Quote
Mine took in a lot of honey in the spring, and the fall crop wasn't a lot

Does anyone have an explanation of why that happens?  It doesn't make sense to me why a healthy hive would not produce when they have had the whole season to collect nectar.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Robo on December 17, 2010, 06:53:35 pm
They can only collect nectar when it is available.  Dry times does not make for good flows.  Also,  I have heard that it may take 2 years for certain plants to recover from a drought and produce significant quantities of nectar.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Acebird on December 18, 2010, 11:08:35 am
That still says to me you should wait until fall after the honey flow has ended to determine how much to take.  Kinda like the Pilgrims.  Or at least curtail how much you take in the Spring until you can see what is ahead.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: T Beek on December 18, 2010, 02:52:37 pm
I stop taking any honey by mid August,, then wait till the Spring dandelions explode to get the lions share of "my" honey.  I didn't really get into this for the honey, although that is the bonus.  If I hadn't stopped taking honey they would have consumed it all during the 60 F temps we had up here in November with NOTHING for them to forage on, forcing me to either feed sugar or let them starve.

I've still got the unopended containers of terrymiacin and other such chemical treatments and haven't felt compelled to use them in five years yet.  I have used sugar dusting one time on a mite invested hive that did well after treating but perished during the winter.  I'm coming to beleive in the "let em live, let em die, but let em chose" philosophy.

I got my first bees (2 pks) from texas (over 12oo miles south) and still have (never treated) survivors from those.  I've purchased more packages from same place, as I learned and lost bees, now regularly catch swarms, have been given bees, ready to do splits, make Winter NUCs and produce my own queens.  I feel treating may be no treat at all .  I'm beginning to even question some feeding as I learn more about Nuc Colonies.

thomas
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Acebird on December 27, 2010, 11:59:49 am
As long as you keep treating, you keep propagating the bees that can't survive. This is the opposite of what we need. We beekeepers need to be propagating the ones that CAN survive. Also we keep propagating the pests that are strong enough to survive our treatments. So we keep breeding wimpy bees and super pests.

You really need to raise your own queens from local surviving bees. Only then can you get bees who genetically can survive and parasites that are in tune with their host and in tune with their climate. As long as we treat we get weaker bees who can only survive if we treat, and stronger parasites who can only survive if they breed fast enough to keep up with our treatments. No stable relationship can develop until we stop treating.


My question is how do you get started?  If you don’t have the nucs or queens to start with you have to get them from somewhere.  It is unlikely a new beek is going to start with a swarm or cut out not knowing a thing about bees.

We get our nucs from a local guru that told us the sperm comes from Europe, it is shipped to Hawaii and then the fertile queen is shipped to him where he creates the nuc.  He is a jokester so I don’t know how true the story is.  At anyrate he is probably getting the queens from somewhere.

Anyhow, how do you know the genetics are not going to be good until the hive develops?  How do you know that your own queens and hives are not in an area that the bees have been foraging which has been tainted?  I understand and agree with the “survival of the fittest”.  It is nature’s way.  So regardless of where the genes come from, if they are good the hive will flourish and if they are not then they would parish.  In my view it comes down to a philosophy of human intervention or not based on what happens.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Michael Bush on December 27, 2010, 10:16:12 pm
The first step is to get them in an evironment they can survive in.  In my experience, since Varroa, that is either small cell or natural cell.  The next step is to breed from the ones that do well.  Obviously you need more than one to choose from...
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: luvin honey on December 28, 2010, 06:52:57 pm
Quote
It IS tough the first year to consider losing the bees. I'm swearing all over again that next year I will do absolutely nothing, including sugar. We'll see. I bet if my good hive is weak come spring I will be out there with sugar after all
.

I am not sure what your fear is the bees dying or you loosing the honey.  What is the heading ,“Natural and Organic” beekeepers, right?  If you are an organic farmer you are not going to throw seven on your garden if the bugs take a toll are you.  I am sure there are many first year beekeepers who won’t give up because of losses especially if they know the advantages of natural and organics.  Just do it.

The only "treatment" I have ever done is sugar. I would never, ever do any chemicals. I don't use them in anything in my yard, gardens or hives. But, I did feed sugar. Unforunately, this is now a moot point anyway as the bears took out both my hives! Now, would I be "organic" in my behavior towards bears? Hmmmm :D
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Acebird on December 28, 2010, 07:42:18 pm
Bears are tough.  Have you or anyone else in your area tried an electric fence?
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: luvin honey on December 28, 2010, 07:45:13 pm
Afterwards :) But, the bees dwindled out and there was nothing left to protect. Will try again next year.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: T Beek on December 29, 2010, 11:56:14 am
If the bear (s) that got your hives survives winter it "will come back."  Bears have good memories and "LOVE" bee larva in the Spring.  I use solar electric fencers and so far, so good.  I have friends who aren't so lucky, having repeated problems with a bee loving bear, who has destroyed his eight foot chain link fence (latest attempt) to get to his hives.

His next step will be the organic method of control ;) called filling the freezer.

thomas
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Acebird on December 29, 2010, 12:38:39 pm
Quote
Bears have good memories


So do most animals that get zapped by a fence.  My friend talks about the time he had getting his pig to go through an open gate that was protected by a wire.  Why are most people afraid of bees?  Because they have already been stung by one, usually at a young age.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: T Beek on December 29, 2010, 01:00:28 pm
I think most people are actually afraid of wasps and hornets, wrongly lumping bees in with them, happens all the time. 

I can relate to your pig-keeping friend; we had to physically remove, move or lay down fencing whenever we moved our pigs around (but we eventually discovered that a bottle of beer will work wonders motivating a pig).

thomas
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Acebird on December 29, 2010, 01:14:15 pm
Quote
I think most people are actually afraid of wasps and hornets, wrongly lumping bees in with them, happens all the time.


Yes, I agree.
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: tedw200 on April 17, 2011, 09:55:15 pm
If I'm not using any type of medication and no sugars, but only natural honey to spring feed and herbs for mite control, am I a organic bee keeper and is my honey organic ?
Title: Re: Attention "Natural & Organic" Beekeepers
Post by: Acebird on April 17, 2011, 10:40:34 pm
Maybe!  Is it certified, no.  You can only do what you can do.  You can't control where the bees forage.  Part of the certification is locating the apiary where there is no commercial farming and then you have the problem of urban or suburban chemical treatments.  If you are into bee keeping for yourself then don't worry about it.  If you are trying to sell the honey then tell the customers you have done all you can to be chemical free.  Let them make the choice.