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Author Topic: Under or Over Supering  (Read 9591 times)

Offline eltalia

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Re: Under or Over Supering
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2019, 09:17:38 am »
The method I am pointing to is not "undersupering" Brian, that method is something else
and also as mentioned by another poster only applies to brood boxes - for those that
subscribe to doing so. I and no other commercial beek I know of does.
Using that same head (logic) ask yourself how bees can deposit honey in unbuilt cells
on new frames, the answer should tell you why the top box fills with a few new
frames amongst capped in the box under.

Cheers.

Bill

Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Under or Over Supering
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2019, 08:34:55 pm »
Are you limiting the size of the brood nest with a QE?

Yes I am.
One 10 frame deep box for the brood.
Pretty common practice here in OZ to have just a single brood box.

Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Under or Over Supering
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2019, 08:40:26 pm »
The method I am pointing to is not "undersupering" Brian, that method is something else
and also as mentioned by another poster only applies to brood boxes - for those that
subscribe to doing so. I and no other commercial beek I know of does.
Using that same head (logic) ask yourself how bees can deposit honey in unbuilt cells
on new frames, the answer should tell you why the top box fills with a few new
frames amongst capped in the box under.

Cheers.

Bill

Hi Bill.
My under supering comment was the similarity to giving the bees new frames to work on closest to the brood as opposed to capping frames in the top super filled with nectar. My bees are doing what comes natural but I don't want to continually give them new frames in the first super when there's frames in the second super that should be capped first before they build comb & store nectar in the new ones.
I'm trying to encourage them to finish what they started before giving them any new projects.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Under or Over Supering
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2019, 11:40:36 pm »
The method I am pointing to is not "undersupering" Brian, that method is something else
and also as mentioned by another poster only applies to brood boxes - for those that
subscribe to doing so. I and no other commercial beek I know of does.
Using that same head (logic) ask yourself how bees can deposit honey in unbuilt cells
on new frames, the answer should tell you why the top box fills with a few new
frames amongst capped in the box under.

Cheers.

Bill

Hi Bill.
My under supering comment was the similarity to giving the bees new frames to work on closest to the brood as opposed to capping frames in the top super filled with nectar. My bees are doing what comes natural but I don't want to continually give them new frames in the first super when there's frames in the second super that should be capped first before they build comb & store nectar in the new ones.
I'm trying to encourage them to finish what they started before giving them any new projects.

It isn't so much "finish what they started" Brian as "bugger me, what do we do with
this lot".... a forced redistribution - by Courier Bees.
There is the link I read is missing in your logic, no way can wax builders build space to
accomadate courier bees at work in a solid flow.

Less new frames for a slower flow just keeps a balance, a judgement the beek makes
"on the fly". Simply throwing frames in or "a box under" willy nilly does not work as
 maybe expected, and likewise for timing.
For your method you want wax builders doing the short march and courier bees doing
the long, bees won't accept that easy so it is down to you to set the balance that
forces them to see a lack of space, they then go up. No problem.

For the method Max and so many others follow as an efficiency the wax builders can
go do something else over eating honey to build energy as heat in wax building, whilst
the walk for courier bees is a faster turn around making for more returns to the beek
for the effort.
In short - building wax costs money.


Cheers.

Bill

Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Under or Over Supering
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2019, 12:17:52 am »
I understand what your saying Bill but at what point do you feel the bees will stop building comb & filling it with nectar if I provide the means to do so. I'm in a pretty good flow at present but at this rate, I'll end up with 4 deep supers on the brood box & nothing capped. I know they will only cap when the moisture content is right but I didn't plan on having my hives any higher than 3 boxes. I was hoping to pull some capped frames & replace with new frames but it appears that if I give them any new frames, their happy to go about building & filling the new gear totally neglecting full frames of nectar upstairs.
This is my first hive & I'm learning as I go & your advice is appreciated.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Under or Over Supering
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2019, 01:01:57 am »

This is my first hive & I'm learning as I go & your advice is appreciated.

That there is important information missing  from your first post as I and
likely others assumed the story was around two beeks chewing the fat over
a "how to" to come up with "undersupering". We have done that topic
so now you do know.
To get you back on track?
Take all frames with the most cells filled and place those in the first super.
Fill the top super with the remainder but no new frames, remove them all.
Then wait.
On inspection (days away) move capped comb to the outside positions,
#1+#2+#9+#10. When the bottom super is capped leave in place and repeat
with the top super.

A word of advice?
Avoid accepting at face value what is read on web pages and seen on Youtube
to then persist when clearly whatever is not working for you. Sure there is a
book, just not written by bees but by a bee interpreter, and many of those are
Martians.  Bees will speak for themselves, the beekeeper merely tunes in to the
frequency.

Cheers.


Bill


Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Under or Over Supering
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2019, 02:38:52 am »
if you got some supers on already, they will finish the lowest one first, then scnd,..... not necessarily in a strict way, but you won?t have to move frames one by one. completely unnecessary, esp. in a good flow as you say. just stop adding supers till 2 (out of 3, got that right?) are full and mostly capped and harvest those. don`t move em around. you are just disturbing the bees, diminishing harvest.
capping doesn?t nec. mean that honey is ripe. just means: cell?s full.

Offline max2

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Re: Under or Over Supering
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2019, 04:34:43 am »
"  they will finish the lowest one first, then scnd,."
not necessarily ..in my experience.
I have a couple of hives with 1 FD brood box and 11/2 supers with a Q excluder.
Often the 1/2 super on top will be fully capped and the FD super under it still has space.
Indeed it is quite common to have the lid full of honey with space in the supers.
Bees will be bees.
In the case where  honey has been placed in the lid I assume that less wax is required to make more ( drone) cells then to ripen and cap frames. maybe a " cost vs return" situation?

Offline eltalia

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Re: Under or Over Supering
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2019, 04:51:56 am »
Yes Max, I had a paragraph written on their lid preference and "white wax" but
held that back as I felt it may confuse the message.
You are spoton in your comments and it is yet another reason to use insulated
lids in bringing beespace to the topbars of frames - a practice in our apiary for
decades albeit well improved Rvalue wise as materials improved.

Cheers.

Bill

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Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Under or Over Supering
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2019, 05:22:43 am »
if you got some supers on already, they will finish the lowest one first, then scnd,..... not necessarily in a strict way, but you won?t have to move frames one by one. completely unnecessary, esp. in a good flow as you say. just stop adding supers till 2 (out of 3, got that right?) are full and mostly capped and harvest those. don`t move em around. you are just disturbing the bees, diminishing harvest.
capping doesn?t nec. mean that honey is ripe. just means: cell?s full.

This is what I'm trying to persuade them to do, cap off the first super before going upstairs. I know full well that they still might cap some upstairs before some at the bottom but generally if they finish off most of the bottom, I'll have some frames to extract.
Having 18 frames of honey now stored brings me to my next question.
Will the bees have a tendency to swarm as they now have little room to store nectar or do they stop collecting & go onto capping?
Should I add another super to the top to give them more room even though they may not use it just yet. We are in a pretty good flow here at present.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Under or Over Supering
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2019, 06:17:05 am »
maybe it`s very hot in the top of the hive?

Enouhg room is good. for a day or two.... they can put A LOT of honey into a box if forced to it.
After that they start clogging up the broodframes. Be fast enough and it shouldn`t be a topic.
I like my supers packed with honey. And they do it.

Putting only foundation in the top supers help in them finishing (almost) the one below.