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Offline FlexMedia.tv

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Another swarm I don?t understand
« on: July 04, 2018, 09:23:39 pm »
I have 2 hives. Every year they swarm and they don?t make it through the winter. (I?ll post for help on that later) so I watch the purple hive swarm high up in the tree. Can?t get them. They leave the next morning. I watch the yellow hive swarm to the same spot. An hour later they converge to the table leg under the purple hive. ( its 92 in Michigan) now both hives have bees on the outside. Yellow not so many but purple has a ton just like they did before the swarm. Would yellow ever swarm then take over purple? It sure looks like it! (I?ll try to post pictures) just very odd. I?ve been reading up on how to save a swarmed hive but how do I even open it with all of them hanging outside? First is the swarm. 2nd pick is two is two days after. Seems like a lot of bees for half to have left...
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Art



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Offline Acebird

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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2018, 09:02:50 am »
I?ve been reading up on how to save a swarmed hive but how do I even open it with all of them hanging outside?
Why does that matter?  If it is a new swarm they are not usually aggressive.
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2018, 02:33:07 pm »
I?ve been reading up on how to save a swarmed hive but how do I even open it with all of them hanging outside?
Why does that matter?  If it is a new swarm they are not usually aggressive.

Not that it matters much but since I haven?t  done a hive after a swarm where you raise another queen. If this queen came back and they are just hanging outside the hive cuz it?s too hot, maybe I should leave them alone?
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Offline cao

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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2018, 03:43:02 pm »
Yes swarms can take over other hives.  Especially if weak and/or queenless.  It is entirely possible that when your second hive swarmed that they took over your first hive.  The only way to know for sure is if you had a marked queen that swarmed and you found her in the new hive.

As far as working a hive after they swarm, I would check the hive to see if they have queen cells present.  If they do then leave the hive alone for 3 weeks for the queen to do her thing.  If all goes well, after the 3 weeks there should be eggs and/or larva.  After that you can check on them like before.  If there aren't eggs or a queen present the I would either put a frame of eggs from another hive of order a new queen.

In your case with your hive that you think was taken over by a swarm and has bees over the front, a little smoke can move the bees off the front when you need to pull boxes off. 

It's hot here too.  Some of my hives have at least twice the bees bearding than in your picture.

   

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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2018, 04:50:03 pm »
Yes swarms can take over other hives.  Especially if weak and/or queenless

   
I have to think that?s what happened here. I had to leave them there and the next morning they were bearding on the hive. I have had some wierd things happen in the last 4 years so why not this too???
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2018, 05:07:53 pm »
I have 2 hives. Every year they swarm and they don?t make it through the winter.

What I see is a hive that looks like 3 medium boxes.  Although I don't know Mi flows it would be hard to keep bees contained in just 3 medium boxes with out a lot of management or splitting.  I am wondering if this is your swarm problem.  Are you trying to limit the size of the hive?
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2018, 06:00:57 pm »
I have 2 hives. Every year they swarm and they don?t make it through the winter.

What I see is a hive that looks like 3 medium boxes
Acebird
About a week ago I opened the hives and they had not yet finished filling up the out side frames. I added another super anyway. A week later they swarmed. I have more supers to add but I?ll find out tomorrow if they have started drawing frames on the first one
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2018, 08:13:48 am »
What is the origin of your bees?  Were they packages, nucs or caught swarms?  There has to be a common denominator if all your bees swarm and don't make it.  It is very unusual for a colony to swarm in the first year unless there is something in the genetics.
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2018, 08:17:39 am »
Ace,
Another common denominator could bee feeding the bees. This will cause the bees to swarm.
Flex, are you feeding your bees?
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2018, 08:44:47 am »
Jim,  There might be a hundred possible common denominators.  I think it would be much more helpful if we could see pictures inside the hive from when he got the bees until now.  Then a brief description of what he has done between the inspections.  In MI he has the advantage of moving the hive expansion along quicker because he has little worry for beetle infestation.  And there is virtually no risk of robbing in the spring and early summer unless his location will not support bees.  Which could be another common denominator.
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2018, 01:26:35 pm »
Every year has been package bees from different companies. Last two years have been from the club.some years I feed others I don?t. This year I fed. I?ve used queen excluders this year I didn?t. This year I?m almost positive the yellow hive swarmed to the purple. I inspected this morning and purple had a ton and yellow has half. I?ll try to post some pics but no need to add another super cuz they still have not moved to the first one. Purple only has one box of brood, a ton of bees in the 2nd with honey and pollen only. No brood. I?m still new after 4 years but why swarm with one box of brood and a box of honey?
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2018, 01:40:17 pm »
Purple hive

Yellow hive



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Offline beepro

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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2018, 05:15:50 pm »
They swarm for a number of reasons.  Sometime it is the pests, wild animals bothering the hives, management (feeding), reproduction, etc.   As beekeepers, we're suppose to do swarm management before there is even the thought of a reproductive swarm.  This is done 2 months ahead of the yearly flow.  So yes, even with a single hive and a super on, they will soon run out of room when the main flow hits.  It is not how many boxes they have drawn out but rather how crowded they are at the time of the flow.

And when you feed them on a flow this is even worse.  Because soon the brood nest will all be back filled.  Then they will make QCs ready to swarm thinking that no more room to grow further.  One box and one super that is it; time to find another bigger place to live.   For every growing nuc hive this season, I installed 2 deep nucs in between the honey super(s) and the bottom brood nest with drawn comb.   No issue with swarming!

Next season, have all your drawn comb ready and install the supers as soon as you see them flying after the winter.  Over here it is early Jan. usually.  By mid-Feb. we can make our 2nd batch of new queens.  So know your flow, your management style, and your bee's behaviors as each year is different from the last.  We have cooler weather than last year so I adjust my management differently this season.

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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2018, 06:04:24 pm »
Hard to know what went wrong just seeing a frame from each hive.  I am wondering if the bees were related and they preferred the queen in the purple hive.  There is no queen cell on the frame from the yellow so are you sure they swarmed or did they drift?
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2018, 06:43:56 pm »
Those look like my bees of Italians (Cordovan) origin.   And they do grow fast too when the flow is on. 
You have to use the drawn frames for swarm control.   And yes, they like to drift to the nearby strongest queen hive too. 
Mine just several inches apart at http://imgbox.com/3RhiC94v
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 07:06:07 pm by beepro »

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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2018, 02:26:25 pm »
There is no queen cell on the frame from the yellow so are you sure they swarmed or did they drift?
Yup pretty sure yellow swarmed. I watched them make a large football size ball in a tree then in that first picture they formed on the table leg. There may have been some queen cells but t I didn?t recognize any
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2018, 02:47:09 pm »
Those look like my bees of Italians (Cordovan) origin.
They are. Put them in May. Probably should not have fed these!
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Offline VermontHoneyBee

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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2018, 03:31:19 pm »
Swarming seems to be hard to control at best.  From what I have learned, it is important that you inspect the hives and make sure they have room to expand, that they are not honey bound and that they are not building swarming cells.  One of my hives "was" determined to swarm and despite the fact that I was checking them often, they were building swarming cells quickly and putting eggs inside.  I always caught them before they capped the cells.  I understand that once they cap the cells, it may be too late.

On my stubborn hive, I ended up splitting it and each 1/2 was put into a new hive (frames installed and bees shook into them).  It has been two weeks and no more swarming cells on either split.

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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2018, 09:57:03 pm »
I was thinking of something else too.  Many beekeepers in my area have reported that their bees have swarmed (hobbyist mostly) and I am wondering why that has not been a real problem from me except for one hive out of six and even that one I controlled it.  I used slotted boards on all my hives, which some say it helps prevent swarms.  I wonder if I did not have slotted boards if my experience would be different.... Who knows....

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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2018, 05:21:39 pm »
Never too late to figure out why these bees swarm every year to be ready for next year. I have to learn how to keep these bees over the winter. That would make me happy! Purple has a queen I?m pretty sure that swarmed from yellow. Purple has one brood box, one honey super filling up and another super with not many bees hanging out. Yellow I think is queenless with two full brood boxes and a super with hardly any bees.
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2018, 05:56:43 pm »
Then at this point you can either buy a mated queen for the yellow hive or give them 3 frames of bees from the purple hive to make another queen.  I don't know if it is too late to make a new queen in your area.  Make a small nuc with one or 2 QCs will work. 

If it is me, I would buy a mated queen and donate 3 frames of cap broods and bees to the yellow hive.  It is better to overwinter with 3-6 hives either full size or nuc size.  This way next Spring you will have some that survive to make splits from.  If possible I try to get 10 hives build up before the winter here.  My only limitation is having enough drawn comb for splits.  Currently maxed out for the season.

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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2018, 11:48:25 am »
I guess I?ll get a mated Queen since I have never tried that route
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2018, 10:45:15 pm »
I am curious if the purple hive that is believe has the new queen from the yellow that swarmed will make it through the winter. It seems to be doing well but it only has one brood box and now has turned the box I had for them as a brood box, using it as a honey super. I placed another super on it. Will it  eventually make another brood box or just swarm again?
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2018, 08:25:02 am »
You are describing back filling.  And if that is the case they have decided to swarm.  Crowding will cause a swarm at any time of the flying season.  You have to add boxes before they make a decision and you have to make sure they use the box unless it is drawn comb.
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2018, 12:11:46 am »
You are describing back filling.

Does that mean I pull some of the brood frames and place them in the next super where the honey is?
Thanks
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2018, 02:38:10 am »
Bees like their broodnest in an oval shape pattern inside these boxes.  So they will
build the brood nest first in the middle follow by the pollen band and finally the
honey band.  If you give them 3 boxes, they will fill in the oval shape brood nest with this pattern.  That is why some beekeepers, including the commercial operation, will use a QE to harvest the honey.  Their boxes might be 2 honey supers and 1 brood nest box.  I modify this set up a bit to include 2 laying queens in 3 boxes.

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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2018, 08:37:07 am »
Back filling is what the bees do when they have made a decision to swarm.  The queen stops laying eggs and the brood nest is filled with nectar (not usually capped honey).  If they are capping it then you may have a chance to get them to except the top box by pulling frames up into it.  The unknown is what is happening to the flow in your area?  If the flow has tapered off or even stopped then the queen is going to stop laying and they may cap the honey in the nest and not expand into the top box because they have no need to.  Probably the most important thing a beekeeper can learn in the first year is the flows in their area.  The flows affect what bees do and what decisions a beekeeper should make.  Flows are the one thing that most beekeepers in an area don't disagree on.  The internet is wonderful for learning about bees but local clubs are the answer for flows.
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2018, 11:29:54 am »
I got my new queen in the mail today to add to my one hive that swarmed. After I check for an existing queen and queen cells, do I add the new queen like starting a new package hive?
Thanks!
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2018, 08:57:29 pm »
Art you can do that. I would take the queen in the queen cage and put on top of the frames and see how the bees react. After the bees cover the cage, I would pick it up and slide my bare finger or if necessary a nitrate gloved hand and slide my finger slowly across the screen. If the want a new queen, you can slide your finger. If they are not ready, they will bee biting the screen and will not move easily.
If they easily move I open the screen and carefully release her on the frames. Take to not release her into the air.
If they are attacking the screen, place her in the hive in the cage.
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Re: Another swarm I don?t understand
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2018, 12:52:34 am »
Art you can do that. I would take the queen in the queen cage and put on top of the frames and see how the bees react. After the bees cover the cage, I would pick it up and slide my bare finger or if necessary a nitrate gloved hand and slide my finger slowly across the screen. If the want a new queen, you can slide your finger.
If they are attacking the screen, place her in the hive in the cage.
Jim

Sawdstmakr,
I got this too late. I placed her inside in her crate. I hope they are ready. I have to get a hive to survive the winter!
Thanks, Art
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