Author Topic: One out of twenty hives:Heavy, very heavy mite drop. (Read 3859 times)

Van, Arkansas, USA · « **on:** July 03, 2018, 02:33:55 pm »

I have 4 treatment free hives, 16 hives that I treat. One of the treatment free hives had a huge mite drop on the bottom board, to many mites to count. Tomorrow morning, when it is cool, I will do a alcohol wash and determine the mite load. All 20 hives had a mimimal mite drop except for this single treatment free hive.

Here is my delima, do I leave the hive treatment free and take my loses/chances or do I move the hive to the treatment area and treat. I hate to lose a hive, especially when I know I can save it. The other side of the coin IF I treat, then I am breeding and maintaining a weak hive which I don?t want the genetics in my apiary.

These are tough decisions to me. I am leaning towards not treating this hive, I don?t want the genetics. The final decision will be made after an alcohol wash tomorrow.

I would appreciate your input.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 03, 2018, 02:43:59 pm »

Van,
I may mostly collect feral hives and swarms. A few years back I caught 4 swarms from commerce hives that were placed right next to my farm. They were all strong hives but their mite count was un countable compared to almost no mites dropping in the remaining 8 feral hives. I decided to leave them and see how they winter compared to the rest of the hives. I lost all 4 of the commercial swarm hives and none of the other 8 hives. Next time I see this I will requeen the hive.
That is what I recommend that you do, requeen from a treatment free hive.
Jim

Acebird · « **Reply #2 on:** July 03, 2018, 05:03:10 pm »

Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on July 03, 2018, 02:33:55 pm

I hate to lose a hive, especially when I know I can save it.

This statement tells me you don't have the stomach to be treatment free. What always throws me is someone who thinks they can save every hive that hasn't been treated but can't save every hive that has. Van, I have had mite falls where you couldn't tell what color the tray is. Then the hive goes through winter and produces two to three boxes of honey the next season.
I can't tell you what the bees do in Arkansas but my hives typically had a very high mite fall when the queen started shutting down because the flow was tapering off. I suspect that is when the colony had time for grooming.

AR Beekeeper · « **Reply #3 on:** July 03, 2018, 07:02:59 pm »

Treating and re-queening accomplishes the same goal as allowing the colony to die, and you still have your colony.

Troutdog · « **Reply #4 on:** July 03, 2018, 07:38:35 pm »

Such a loaded topic
Brings out the all knowing in us all. Lol
All I can say is the new research out of Europe, the folks at COLOSS, are all chasing the concept that the queens are the main reason for virus spreading in colonies. Makes sense to me.
They got it from the drones at mating.
Your genetic breeding will yield a small improvement with 20 hives.Still Worth It!!! Now if you and 10 other like minded folks pooled resources and swapped genetics your gonna get somewhere, get a decent mating yard semi isolated as well.
Not tracking the genetic markers for resistance, virology on your queens and drones, and at least a 4 year run by a few queens in a few colonies, your dealing in speculation nothing proven, but that's ok you see the improvement or not.
Next big hurdle is passing down the traits or alleles to F1 F2 F3 as virus resistance it is highly recessive. Dont know if you have a marker for mite resistance, (it's more a combination of supreme health and radiance that repels the mites). And tracking this genetic movement over many years.
The issue is not just mites (lower vitogellin and lipid counts are disastrous in colder climates)) its virus ( 7) that's why tracheal ( k wing) was successful in treatment free and varroa is not. With two new virus out here (ssi and DWV2) coming soon to your part of the country, you may well hold onto the moral high ground of treatment free but you gonna spend a lot of time rebuilding each spring and where is that genetic going with the statistical odds of reinfection not in your favor.
Are we weakening the genetics by our approach to bees heck yes. Is treatment free an improvement....... I dunno, depends on who's doing it. You best be good at disease recognition and know your species and their tolerances.
Wooden boxes larger colonies,
Manipulations sugar, pol sub, anti biotic, mass breeding, transitory, toxin exposures etc etc etc. My thought is you breed your best, treat it you have to and regroup the genetic ball of wax by just simply taking proper care and let them be bees for once, let them get three winters behind em and adjust to your locale, dont add anything to the mix, or add it before you start the three year run. Now you got something ( maybe) lol.
I do not disagree it's all about your queens and localized breeding, this is the sustainable way forward, after a few years why would you even consider bringing in swarms from unknown sources....... your contaminating your hard work.
Just my nickels worth of chatter on the topic. With respect and best wishes for success to all.
Blessed are the beemakers.

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cao · « **Reply #5 on:** July 03, 2018, 08:31:21 pm »

I don't treat and don't really look for mites so take that into consideration with what I say. You have some hives that you treat and some that you don't. Are you wanting to eventually go one way or the other? If you are than that would be my guide to what to do with that hive.

Acebird · « **Reply #6 on:** July 03, 2018, 09:32:46 pm »

Cao, there is no such thing as a beekeeper that treats and tries not treating. I can predict the results. Guaranteed, never will you find one that succeeds. They are doomed from the start. Non treating requires a belief in nature. Nature is cruel but will equalize everything. Nature does not use a business model.

Van, Arkansas, USA · « **Reply #7 on:** July 03, 2018, 09:53:02 pm »

Troutdog:With two new virus out here (ssi and DWV2) coming soon to your part of the country, Tell us about the two new virus. What are if any visual characteristics?
Blessings

Van, Arkansas, USA · « **Reply #8 on:** July 03, 2018, 09:55:22 pm »

Cao: Are you wanting to eventually go one way or the other? Yes I am trying to achieve treatment free. Progress is slow but encouraging results.
Blessings

Van, Arkansas, USA · « **Reply #9 on:** July 03, 2018, 10:06:11 pm »

Ace: Guaranteed, never will you find one that succeeds. I am succeeding slowly but steadily. I have four hives two years treatment free. One may be losing, but I already have a fifth treatment free for two years to add for a total of five.

I will not be discouraged, and I will steadily keep working towards my goal of treatment Free. I am not gonna take my hives and throw them to the mites. Some hives are naturally hygienic, I graft eggs from those queens. It is a slow process, I will admit, but I like the challenge.
Blessings

Bushpilot · « **Reply #10 on:** July 04, 2018, 12:23:08 am »

Requeen if you can, treat if you can't. Why lose a colony?

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 04, 2018, 12:49:14 am »

Ace,
Are you really saying that you cannot keep bees and bee treatment free. You know there are many of us on Beemaster that are doing just that. Michael Bush is one of us that is treatment free.
Jim

cao · « **Reply #12 on:** July 04, 2018, 12:54:28 am »

When I started with 3 nucs 7 years ago and when I bought a couple of queens from Kelley's, I never even asked if they treated or not. I was just concerned to give them a home. Never thought about treating for mites. Now that I'm up to 70+ hives(getting close to my limit

), I don't see that as even a possibility. Maybe it has just been dumb luck, maybe it has been my making splits every year, maybe location, maybe the bees are taking care of it. Who knows? I am not as pessimistic as Ace when it comes to someone who treats going treatment free or for that matter the reverse. Everyone must follow their own path. I hope all goes well.

Troutdog · « **Reply #13 on:** July 04, 2018, 10:35:57 am »

Quote from: Van, Arkansas, USA on July 03, 2018, 09:53:02 pm

Troutdog:With two new virus out here (ssi and DWV2) coming soon to your part of the country, Tell us about the two new virus. What are if any visual characteristics?
Blessings

Hi Van
The new virus/ bacteria dont have much in visual
In DWV2 there are no deformed wings.
SS1 Wisconsin epicentre now in 8 states
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/P

Deadouts in winter like nosema with bees infected in far corners of hive. Symptoms are unrecognizable until hive starts collapsing then its observation based.

Essentially it is a hemolymph disease which makes for shorter lives bees. Thus by the time you can suspect something it's probably too late.

Dwv a/b and recombinant

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/

In conclusion, our findings support the view that DWV-B poses a particular problem in temperate zones, when queens cease egg laying during winter and the workforce is not replenished by newly emerging workers for several months. Given its putatively higher virulence, this specific genetic variant of DWV can be considered a sufficient cause of premature death in otherwise healthy adult worker bees, even in the absence of its vector the V. destructor mite. However, the extent and rate of overwinter decline of a standing population of honeybee workers in a colony, and therefore the chance of that colony?s survival into spring, will be a function of initial workforce size, virus load and prevalence, in addition to other factors such as availability of overwinter resources. Models of honeybee colony dynamics that incorporate Varroa-virus interactions explicitly (reviewed in ref. 51) seem especially appropriate in light of our data.

Luck with the academic reading.

My conclusion is the same keep your bees stress free and mite free and they will probably live.

One more side note on treating or not treating
I absolutely believe you can be free of mites once you get your genetics out of the lower echelon and more into their higher state.
The process requires a firm dedication to culling and and selection. Selection is mandatory, and your choices matter. The ability of the DNA to fix itself over generations is beyond question but takes generations f8 and beyond to see the difference. Not sure how not treating helps this part of the process and not sure I'm correct in my assumptions but our dialogue is important as well as sharing our best with like minded folks with skills.
I just think you need a really kick ass queen for a hive to have the skill sets and radiance to overcome varroa and pathogens of all sorts. In general we dont have that yet but lots of people are working on it.

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Van, Arkansas, USA · « **Reply #14 on:** July 04, 2018, 10:40:17 am »

Alcohol wast this day, July 4th AM:

1.1 mite per 10 bees or

11 mites per hundred........ut oh

Bees were removed from a brood frame, not a Honey frame. I think this hive is in trouble as most mites are in capped brood cells.

Cao,,,,, you have 70 plus hives????? my limit is 20, age related.

OK thanks for the replies everyone. I?m going to reread every post then think about what to do.

Blessings this 4 of July.

Van, Arkansas, USA · « **Reply #15 on:** July 04, 2018, 10:47:26 am »

Troutdog,,,,,nih.gov is a bonafied resource. Thanks Buddy, I will read the article. Did you obtain the article from PubMed or another source????
Blessings

Acebird · « **Reply #16 on:** July 04, 2018, 02:11:50 pm »

Quote from: sawdstmakr on July 04, 2018, 12:49:14 am

Ace,
Are you really saying that you cannot keep bees and bee treatment free.

Absolutely not Jim. I am saying you cannot treat bees and expect to be successful not treating because when push comes to shove you will treat them. You either have to let nature kill off the ones that you think will not survive or do it yourself. The bottom line is the bees that cannot live without help need to die. If you continue to prop up the weak you will make it harder for the ones that are not treated.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 04, 2018, 11:08:43 pm »

Ace,
That makes sense.
Jim

AR Beekeeper · « **Reply #18 on:** July 05, 2018, 11:05:44 am »

Actually, allowing a colony to die that can be saved makes no sense at all. Re-queening makes the necessary changes to the genetics of the colony and will determine if the colony has any resistance to the varroa mites or the viruses they carry. When a beekeeper re-queens he has "killed" the old genetics, just as though he allowed the colony to die.

I have done the "Bond Yard" and I found that while colonies are selected, it is a very foolish and expensive way to find colonies that limit mite reproduction and have virus resistance. It is a lazy mans answer to the selection process. Also, I had treatment free bees for 12 years, and in the end most were weak, sick colonies that were of no use. Those that would show resistance would lose that trait because of open mating causing the dilution of the trait. A small beekeeper is whistling in the dark when he thinks he, all alone, will find and KEEP a line of bee that is treatment free. It will take very large holdings, and a great deal of cooperation between beekeepers in the area, to control open mating of the large numbers of queens required to find resistant bees.

Acebird · « **Reply #19 on:** July 05, 2018, 01:59:24 pm »

Quote from: AR Beekeeper on July 05, 2018, 11:05:44 am

Re-queening makes the necessary changes to the genetics of the colony and will determine if the colony has any resistance to the varroa mites or the viruses they carry. When a beekeeper re-queens he has "killed" the old genetics, just as though he allowed the colony to die.

Requeen with what? Nothing man has meddled in will last more then a couple of years and that is if it even last the first year. "Resistant" queens is just another way to make a premium profit. In no way is resistant queens going to solve the mite problem.

AR Beekeeper · « **Reply #20 on:** July 06, 2018, 12:38:27 pm »

Ace, if you allow the colony to die, what are you going to replace it with?

Where do you think a colony's resistance comes from? It doesn't spring up out of thin air, or out of a pile of dead bees.

beepro · « **Reply #21 on:** July 06, 2018, 05:45:36 pm »

Van, I have another option for you without any type of a treatment. Make another nuc hive by donating one frame of eggs/larvae from your choice of the tf hive. This nuc hive will take all of your cap brood frames from this hive.

The queen will remain in the same hive with all her foragers and nurse bees in the same location just without the cap brood frames. All cap brood frames will be move to the new nuc hive.

This queen will be mark as a treatment hive in the future since she cannot produce the mite fighting bees. You don't have to kill this queen either. Move her hive to the treatment yard later in the season. You can even donate frame of bees from the tf hive if it is a bit weak.

By doing so the original queen will rebuild her brood nest with lesser mites with treatment as an option. The new nuc hive will make themselves a new queen with the tf stock. This will give them a brood break too.

I've clean up several nuc hives using this method starting in mid-May. I already know by July they will be over run with mites if I don't do anything about it. One hive is so clean now that I can give them a new mated queen to start a fresh. So I gave them 2 mated queen and a virgin in the bottom box separated by 2 QEs.

For this to work, the new nuc hive must have all the cap broods emerged. If the new queen start laying before then it will not work--cap brood mites issue. To clean up the remaining free running mites off the original hive, give it one frame of open larvae about to be cap. Then take it to the nuc hive after they're cap.

This is not a lot of work with one hive! I can manage several deep nuc hives using this method without any chemical treatment. Just labor and sweats.

To let a hive die because of no treatment is just inhumane almost like not giving medicine to a sick person. I chose my method because it has been proven to work!

Van, Arkansas, USA · « **Reply #22 on:** July 07, 2018, 11:43:31 am »

Beepro, this is good, very good, makes perfect sense. Thanks for this post, Beepro, Ar and others.
Blessings

Acebird · « **Reply #23 on:** July 07, 2018, 08:57:49 pm »

Quote from: AR Beekeeper on July 06, 2018, 12:38:27 pm

Ace, if you allow the colony to die, what are you going to replace it with?

Survivors. And out of those survivors only the ones that produce.
Insects multiply very rapidly. Why waste your time with the ones that can't survive? Why not focus your time and energy on the ones that can survive and produce what you want?

beepro · « **Reply #24 on:** July 08, 2018, 06:18:33 pm »

Van, out of 7 hives using my method of mite management, only 2 still have mites because the cap broods have not emerge entirely. I plan
to introduce mated queen into these clean hive once the rest of the virgins are mated. One trick that I use is to put mated queens into the
same hive separated by QEs at each box level. This will hold the mated queens until all the cap broods have emerged from the mating nuc hives.

It is working now without the need to treat. My bees know how to clean off the mites once they get older into 3 weeks post emergence. Young bees that
are recently emerged don't know how to clean themselves yet. I also study the drones to see how much mite load they're carrying. That will be another post to
find some fascinating discovery there. The title would be "using drones sampling for mites" instead of the worker bees.

If you have super hygienic bees that can clean up the mites then they will survive the winter otherwise the colony will be doomed over the winter. My trick is to help those colony that can survive with marginal mite fighting ability. Over time without any treatment some will have better mite resistance power. This is my long term goal. I already know that in my area there are early flying bees in late Dec.- Jan. So there might be some resistant bees out there I can incorporate into my queen breeding program. On my 3rd year I found a hive with very little mites indicating that there are resistant bees out there.

bwallace23350 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 12, 2018, 09:20:34 pm »

Quote from: Acebird on July 07, 2018, 08:57:49 pm

Quote from: AR Beekeeper on July 06, 2018, 12:38:27 pm
Ace, if you allow the colony to die, what are you going to replace it with?
Survivors. And out of those survivors only the ones that produce.
Insects multiply very rapidly. Why waste your time with the ones that can't survive? Why not focus your time and energy on the ones that can survive and produce what you want?

Yep this is my goal. To get mite resistant bees and then keep them going. If I lose a swarm of them that is ok as then I am at least ok that a solid stock of bees is now out in the world.