Queen cell trouble

[Bush_84]

First off I?d like to say that I had my post half way done before my tablet froze. So insult added to injury. I had to take care of eight queen cells today. I have three hot hives, and old queen, and some mating Nucs to get setup. These hot hives were awful. I got stung more than my first six years of beekeeping combined (got quite a few last fall when harvesting so didn?t count that). Also whenever you aren?t interested in knowing where the queen is she?s right there. When you need to find her she?s awol.

First hot hive I actually found the queen right away. With how hot the hive was, I wasn?t all that interested in taking my gloves off. I already had thirty bees actively trying to sting me. So with my clunky gloves and hive tool I manage to pick her up but she flies away. I searched and searched but couldn?t find her. So I moved on. I still had a lot to do. I managed to get the old queen and two hot queens and only crushed one with my clunky gloves. Not bad. I went back to the first hive and still couldn?t find her. I figure I?d check again when I installed the cells this afternoon. When I went back sure enough there she was on the second comb no less.  I brought whole comb about four feet away over the lid.  I again managed to get her by the wing and had her sticking down into the cage. I let go to flip the cover over and she did an instant 180 and flew away. ARGH!  I again couldn?t find her. So I installed my other seven cells and setup mating Nucs. I went back to the first hive and still couldn?t find her. No clumps of bees on the ground to be found. So I assume she made it back into the hive. At this point I was sweaty and so done with bees.

So here?s what I did. I simply put the cell into a protector and put the open end into a queen cage. I put that whole thing in the honey super of the hive I wanted it in. I have to work tomorrow (not until 1 pm) and leave on vacation the day after for a long weekend. So I will check tomorrow and cross my fingers. If I can?t find her how will the hive respond to the queen when she emerges without or without the queen. If the hive is queenless will they accept the virgin and I can let her walk in or should I figure out an alternative plan? 

[Oldbeavo]

Why not just squish her when you find her, hive tool, fat glove finger doesn't matter.

[Bush_84]

I was going to stick her in a mating nuc with a couple shakes of bees. While I don?t have the resources to make big splits, I can get a few of my mini mating Nucs setup. At this point if I find her she?s getting squished. I?m done with games.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Bush, hot hives are difficult to requeen, the bees are terrible about killing introduced queens IF there are any eggs or young larva in the hive.  The grumpy bees will kill a new queen, even a mated queen and then make queen cells with of own genetics.

To deal with a hot hive, I split the hive and walk away.  One week later the hive with eggs has the queen, the other half will have queen cells.  Destroy the queen cells, a day later introduce a queen cell or protected queen in the queenless hive.  The hive with eggs,,,, find the queen, eliminate her and again a week later destroy the queen cells wait a day and introduce a queen cell or protected queen.

The reason for splitting the hot hive is simply to reduce the number of bees, that is, better to deal with 15,000 bees in two splits than to deal with one hive containing 30,000 bees.  I do not know how big your hive is, maybe to small to split so consider.  Put another way, it is easier to find a queen in 15,000 bees than 30,000.

The goal is to limit your exposure to hot bees, thus limit stings and change the genetics.  Hot hives are so bad about killing introduced queens.  If you leave a hot hive a single egg, they will kill your introduced queen and make their own.  Bees can distinguish different strains but this is beyond the scope of your question.

The above is how I requeen hives that want to kill you.  Maybe your bees are not quite so bad, I hope not.  Good luck, and Blessings.

[Acebird]

So if you have other nucs and nuc boxes put one frame of eggs/larvae in the nuc box on top of the hive.  Wait 15 to 30 minutes and see if the queen takes the bait and comes up into the nuc box.  Pull the box off if she does.  Move the parent hive ten ft away.  Replace with the nuc box and queen.  On the second night gas the hive.  Remove the brood in the parent hive and requeen.

[Bush_84]

I?ve already done the heavy lifting so to speak. My original intention was to take a small nuc off of each hive but something in the past month has not gone well. My hives have had some chalk brood issues and then a dearth after dandelions until now. It has also been chilly here this summer. A combination of these factors severely stunted these hives. Funny my packages are doing just fine despite also dealing with chalkbrood. So I?m assuming this is a genetic issue with my queens. Very spotty brood as well. My original plan of taking the comb that she was on went out the door and turned into caging and possible mini nuc.

Anyways I?m rambling on. I?m going to assume that she hasn?t made her way back. I went back out tonight and went through the hive twice. Didn?t find her. She?s marked with a bright red dot so she?s hard to miss. I went ahead and took just the cell and protector and put it in the brood chamber. Worst case scenario something happens to both the old queen and emerged virgin. I?ve got two laying queens that I?d consider spare. Both are mated. One is one of my queens from my angry off hives and one is a queen I reared this spring. She?s just in a mini mating nuc right now. Best case scenario is that the old queen is gone and the virgin does her thing.

I plan to check on cells when I get back home from vacation. Would be tough to find a virgin in a big hive like that but I don?t need to see a virgin. Just that the virgin has emerged and that there are no eggs.

[Acebird]

My hives have had some chalk brood issues and then a dearth after dandelions until now.

Hives that are struggling can get defensive.  Maybe they are not really hot hives if they weren't having issues.  I am beginning to get suspicious of the equipment if the packages are having chalk brood issues.

[Ben Framed]

@ bush_84. M
Quote.  Anyways I?m rambling on.

Mr bush that is how we new folks learn!! Thanks for posting!!
Phillip

[Bush_84]

My hives have had some chalk brood issues and then a dearth after dandelions until now.

Hives that are struggling can get defensive.  Maybe they are not really hot hives if they weren't having issues.  I am beginning to get suspicious of the equipment if the packages are having chalk brood issues.

Care to be more specific?  I have generally gotten my bees from Mann lake. The queens seem to always have trouble with chalk brood. I?m not sure equipment, other than ventilation, has anything to do with it. It always seems to clear out when it gets hot.

Also the hot hives that started as nucs were overflowing when I got them and were still hot as hell. I still think this is a combination of issues leading to their stunted growth. The one thing telling me that this is a queen issue is that my Mann lake packages are beaming while the two of the three nucs have dwindled. This tells me something is happening to the hives that started as nucs that isn?t happening to the package bees. Weather and flow also do play a role. It?s very possible that the nucs are more susceptible to dearth conditions or maybe reactive. They were touted as vsh. It?s possible they may be dragging out larvae in to aggressive fashion. I still believe a lot of it can be traced to the queens. The two that have dwindled have poor laying patterns. Capped brood seems fine. It is possible I suppose that I?m dealing with efb. It?s crossed my mind. Nothing here screams of afb but I?d buy efb if somebody told me so. I know for a fact I?ve seen chalk mummies but that may be more in front of my packages. So it?s possible I?m seeing chalk in my packages and efb in the nucs.

[Oldbeavo]

Ben-84
Some research in Australia has shown that Chalk brood is related to chill in the brood area, if it falls below 32C then the larvae are the susceptible to chalk brood.
We have fixed CB hives by just putting a hive mat above the brood nest, leave an inch at one end for bees to move up into the supers.
Also remove any empty supers to reduce heat needs.
Personal experience but fixed about 4-5 hives last season with this method.

[eltalia]

Ben-84
Some research in Australia has shown that Chalk brood is related to chill in the brood area, if it falls below 32C then the larvae are the susceptible to chalk brood.
We have fixed CB hives by just putting a hive mat above the brood nest, leave an inch at one end for bees to move up into the supers.
Also remove any empty supers to reduce heat needs.
Personal experience but fixed about 4-5 hives last season with this method.

If that "quick fix" does not bring home the message beekeepers _have to_ pay
attention to ventilation/humidity control in their boxes at their location nothing
further will.

Bill

[beepro]

Chalk brood can kill a lot of mites too.  After the weather warms up a bit the chalk brood is gone.
I'm trying to rise some resistant queens to chalk brood disease.

I thought you have an incubator so might as well put that to use to select your future queens.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Ben-84
Some research in Australia has shown that Chalk brood is related to chill in the brood area, if it falls below 32C then the larvae are the susceptible to chalk brood.
We have fixed CB hives by just putting a hive mat above the brood nest, leave an inch at one end for bees to move up into the supers.
Also remove any empty supers to reduce heat needs.
Personal experience but fixed about 4-5 hives last season with this method.

Beavo, Etalia(Bill). Australia appears to me to be doing excellent in regards to Bee research,  a leader, not a follower with research.  I read that in your continent, researchers were trying to isolate, identify the pheromone of the small hive beetle.  Hope your scientists succeed, there must be some smart fellas down under.
Blessings

[Bush_84]

So all except for one virgin emerged. Which queen didn?t emerge?  The hive that I had issues with. She must have made it back to the hive. All the other cells were popped open at the bottom. This one was tore down. So once my queens are mated I?ll put one in that hive. I have two spare queens in cages in a super. Not sure what I?ll do with those if nothing goes wrong I?ll just pinch the hot queen and stick the old queen in a mini mating nuc.

[Acebird]

Also remove any empty supers to reduce heat needs.

IMO empty supers are killers.  Bees have a tendency to go up into empty supers if there is a warming trend.  If the queen lays in them and the weather turns cold the brood is malnourished because there is nothing around them.  There could get any number of brood diseases.  When the weather stays warm they improve if they haven't died already.

[Bush_84]

So an interesting follow up. If you reread some of the topic there was a hive I had a hard time catching the queen when installing cells. She flew off twice. I couldn?t find her again and assumed she didn?t make it back and installed the cell. The cell looked like it had been chewed out. I figured that they dismantled the cell and left it alone. I figure I?d eventualky take one of the queens from my mini mating Nucs and install her. So after some delay today was that day. I went back into the hot hive and found it calm. It was cold and overcast with an occasional drizzle. Not the best day but still calm bees. I found the queen on the third comb and caged her, however she was yellow. I didn?t think much about it right away. I went about my other bee business. As I went on I began to recall that this years color is red and it was imprinted in my brain that the queen that got away from me was in fact red.

I started to think that I took a queen from the wrong hive. I went back to my records and this was the right hive. I went back into the hive to make sure I took the queen out of the hive I was thinking I did. After verification I did in fact have a yellow marked queen from this hive. I put her back in. Bees were happy to see her back.

Here is what I am assuming happened. That virgin must have emerged. I was marking some queens from some swarms I caught not to long ago. I must have went right down the line and found an unmarked queen in this hive and marked her yellow (last years color, I always mark swarms with last years color as an assumption).

So that?s a fun surprise. Due to the weather I didn?t go through the hive from head to toe to check for the red queen. I just let it be.

That leaves me with an interesting problem. I have two mini mating Nucs populated. I was planning on using one of them for the above hive. Now that I don?t have to use her I have extra queens. I?m not in a position to really make any splits. I really wanted to combine these two mini mating Nucs. They won?t individually grow strong enough to make it through winter. I figured that by combining them they?d have a chance to build up enough to have a chance. Any unique suggestions?