Author Topic: Virgin or Laying Worker (Read 3745 times)

Bush_84 · « **on:** July 17, 2018, 03:46:27 pm »

So I?ll start by saying that I think it?s a newly mated queen. I caught a swarm in a trap. They were installed into two 5 frame deep nucs. They?d hadn?t been in the box very long. So not much comb built up. Pretty sure recalling seeing eggs, although I installed a lot of swarms at the time so things are a little fuzzy. Went back in yesterday to find and mark the queen. I also wanted to give them a frame of drawn comb. So first I found the queen. She looked like a virgin. Pretty small. I marked her and put her back in. I pulled out a frame that had just a nubbin of comb on it to put in the fully drawn frame. I noticed that the cells all had mutltiple eggs per cell. I?ve been thinking about it and decided to just see what happens. It?s not a huge swarm so I?m thinking it?s an after swarm and that she is newly mated. I know newly mated queens can be a little crazy right away and will settle down. They had also filled all of their comb with nectar. So her current space is somewhat limited. I?ve seen hives do that with virgins as well. They know they have a little time until she is up and running and use up the space.

I guess my question is what do laying workers look like? I?ve had a few laying worked hives over the years but never did lay my eyes on what a laying worker bee looks like. I?m working on the assumption she looks like any other worker and what I saw was in fact a newly mated queen.

benjamindonaldson · « **Reply #1 on:** July 17, 2018, 03:50:38 pm »

Sounds like you may have a newly mated queen and she is finding her feet. You might as well see what happens after a week or two to see if she settles down, nothing to lose at this point because if you have a laying worker on a small colony is it worth giving it much time?

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Bush_84 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 17, 2018, 03:57:15 pm »

Quote from: benjamindonaldson on July 17, 2018, 03:50:38 pm

Sounds like you may have a newly mated queen and she is finding her feet. You might as well see what happens after a week or two to see if she settles down, nothing to lose at this point because if you have a laying worker on a small colony is it worth giving it much time?

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If it turned out to be a laying worker I?d combine it with one of my production colonies.

AR Beekeeper · « **Reply #3 on:** July 17, 2018, 04:05:31 pm »

A laying worker looks like any other worker bee. The only way to tell a laying worker is to see her with her abdomen in the cell when she lays.

iddee · « **Reply #4 on:** July 17, 2018, 07:22:16 pm »

What does multiple mean?

2 or 3 in the bottom of a cell = queen

6 to 10 in a cell, on bottom and sides = laying worker

Bush_84 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 17, 2018, 08:05:50 pm »

Quote from: iddee on July 17, 2018, 07:22:16 pm

What does multiple mean?

2 or 3 in the bottom of a cell = queen

6 to 10 in a cell, on bottom and sides = laying worker

Some were singles, some were 2 or 3, and some were more than that. I can also say that what I saw was definitely a queen then. If laying workers look like everybody else then that was a queen. It was small. To me it looked like what I?ve seen with virgins. Either way she is now marked. I?ll keep an eye on the situation. If things don?t even out she will pinched and bees combined. I?ve got a couple of hives that could use a second deep and this would be a great head start.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #6 on:** July 18, 2018, 08:26:04 am »

>I guess my question is what do laying workers look like? I?ve had a few laying worked hives over the years but never did lay my eyes on what a laying worker bee looks like.

If you have a lot of eggs in the cells, then almost every bee in the colony was a laying workers. They look like workers.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

"More than half of the bees in laying worker colonies have developed ovaries (Sakagami 1954)..."-- Reproduction by worker honey bees (Apis mellifer L.) R.E. Page Jr and E.H. Erickson Jr. - Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology August 1988, Volume 23, Issue 2, pp 117-126

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00299895

beepro · « **Reply #7 on:** July 18, 2018, 06:37:05 pm »

I suspect that the LW bees are coming from the older nurse bees after they have gone through an
extended period of queen-less-ness. It is very hard to spot the LW when she deposit her eggs into the cell. A normal
queen will take her time to do that. I've never seen a LW in action in my 6 seasons of beekeeping. Very hard to spot one!

Bush_84 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 19, 2018, 08:49:07 pm »

I?ll try to pop in on them on the next nice day to see what?s going on. Supposed to rain for the next day or two I think.

Bush_84 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2018, 11:37:25 pm »

So definitely having laying worker issues. I for sure saw multiple cells with tons of eggs. I did see some larvae but nothing capped. I did see at least two queen cells with large larvae. I?m assuming that these are drone larvae or would the workers know the difference?

The two hives next to this one needs another deep. I?m out of drawn comb and this hive has comb that could be used in these hives. I?m thinking that I do one of two things. Shake them out in front of the hives and let them crawl into one of the good hives. Two would be to do a newspaper combine. Each hive gets half. Thoughts?

Acebird · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2018, 08:12:47 am »

Quote from: Bush_84 on July 20, 2018, 11:37:25 pm

I?m thinking that I do one of two things. Shake them out in front of the hives and let them crawl into one of the good hives. Two would be to do a newspaper combine. Each hive gets half. Thoughts?

Forget that thought! You could lose your good hive. Take the LW hive and just dump it far away from your good hive. Any bees from the LW hive must beg their way into the good hive so they would have to be foragers.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2018, 11:17:35 am »

Also when you dump them on the front of a hive, they overwhelm the defenders. Now you have hundreds of LW queens in your hive that may kill your queen. When you dump them away from your hives the laying workers would have to walk to a hive. Slim chance of them finding your hives.
Jim

AR Beekeeper · « **Reply #12 on:** July 21, 2018, 11:51:01 am »

The idea that a laying worker can't fly is incorrect, they can fly as well as any other worker.

I have joined laying worker colonies to queenright colonies using an excluder and a sheet of newspaper with good success, but usually there is little noticeable benefit to the queenright colony. If a colony has reached the laying worker stage, usually it is best to just shake out the bees where the colony stands, scratch the drone cell cappings on any capped brood, and put the frames over a colony to be cleaned out. If the varroa/hive beetle situation is high, overnight in a freezer may be of benefit.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 21, 2018, 12:50:13 pm »

Laying workers are not field bees. The odds of them getting back to the hives location are slim.
A queen excluder will not stop a laying worker. She will probably be heavier, enlarged abdomen, than a regular bee but her thorax is the same size. The thorax is what stops the queens.
Jim

Acebird · « **Reply #14 on:** July 21, 2018, 12:52:31 pm »

Quote from: AR Beekeeper on July 21, 2018, 11:51:01 am

If a colony has reached the laying worker stage, usually it is best to just shake out the bees where the colony stands,

I disagree with this and I have read testimony of people losing hives for doing just that. Best is to walk away from your hives whether the bees can fly or not.

AR Beekeeper · « **Reply #15 on:** July 21, 2018, 03:32:46 pm »

The queen excluder is to keep the queen in the queenright colony from going up into the LW hive. She need to stay in her own brood nest for a while. Any bee over the age of 6 days knows where her hive is located. At 6 days the young bees make their first flight to take a dump, during which they orient on the hive location within the bee yard.

Acebird · « **Reply #16 on:** July 21, 2018, 04:53:08 pm »

Question for the forum: Does a laying worker leave the hive or does she stay in the hive like a normal queen?

AR Beekeeper · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2018, 11:47:53 am »

According to the 1963 issue of "The Hive and the Honey Bee" laying workers continue to act and perform as normal workers, doing the usual tasks performed in the hive and flying out of the hive. That issue stated that a study done by a Japanese named Sakagami, and a study in Germany by a researcher named Hoffmann reported laying workers behaved like normal worker bees.

There are "false queens" that occur in a laying worker colony that have a retinue formed, and they are slow moving and only lay eggs. I have always thought they were the result of an attempt to raise an emergency queen with a larva that was too old to make a proper queen. They look like both a worker and a poorly formed queen.

Acebird · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2018, 03:57:49 pm »

Quote from: AR Beekeeper on July 22, 2018, 11:47:53 am

According to the 1963 issue of "The Hive and the Honey Bee" laying workers continue to act and perform as normal workers, doing the usual tasks performed in the hive and flying out of the hive.

If that is the case then it shouldn't take much for them to resort back to a normal worker should they join another hive.

Dallasbeek · « **Reply #19 on:** July 22, 2018, 07:36:58 pm »

When do they have time for normal worker-bee activities when they perceive themselves as queens and go about performing the tasks and assuming the position of queens? Just asking.

Dallasbeek · « **Reply #20 on:** July 22, 2018, 07:42:57 pm »

Also, what keeps LWs from killing each other? If they perceive themselves as queens and their ovaries have adapted to lay eggs, why are they not trying to kill off other LWs, since they will kill a true queen introduced into the hive? These are amazingly complex critters.

Bush_84 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 22, 2018, 09:20:47 pm »

I don?t think that a hive would allow a laying worker in. Unless it?s a weak hive and it can?t hold them back. Not sure why a hive tolerates multiple laying workers. Maybe they view each other as workers and not queens?

Michael Bush · « **Reply #22 on:** July 24, 2018, 11:04:09 am »

>Question for the forum: Does a laying worker leave the hive or does she stay in the hive like a normal queen?

When you shake them out several hundred yards away, they all fly directly back, so I would have to say they are still foraging.

Bush_84 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 26, 2018, 04:43:44 pm »

So shook them out today. 2/3rds flew right back to the spot where their hive was. I reduced the entrance of both hives that stood next to it. I?d say most went to the hive that had blue supers which was the same color as their hive bodies. Hopefully the guards kept out any laying workers. The rest clumped up into a cantaloupe sized cluster on a nearby branch. They stayed there. I decided that I wanted more comb build up for my mini mating Nucs. So I shook them in an empty mini mating Nucs. I?ll build a double screen board and put them on one of my queenright mating Nucs. If it doesn?t work out it?s no loss.

Stupid question...when using a double screen do I open the entrance to the hive body on top? I?m assuming so. Do I open both entrances the same direction or opposite directions?

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 26, 2018, 10:51:08 pm »

You do open the top hive and you can open them both on the front.
Jim