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Author Topic: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?  (Read 8082 times)

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2018, 02:57:17 pm »
What CAO said x2
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Offline beepro

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2018, 04:48:11 am »
At this point, I would switch to plan B.

In case that the virgin is MIA on her mating flights, I would have a back up queen.   To do this I would cut out 2 of the largest
QCs from this frame and start another nuc hive.   This will increase the chance of a mated queen.   The more you can make
mated queens, the more successful you will be.     Then combine the mated queen hive with the queen less hive(s.)   I would certainly not put all
my eggs in one basket!

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2018, 08:04:04 pm »
Now comes the hard part....waiting.   I would say leave them alone for at least 3 weeks.  1 for the capped queen cells to hatch, 1 for the queen to take her mating flights, and 1 for her to start laying good. 
Thanks for the heads up on that, cao.  I knew not to mess with them for 2 weeks, but I didn't think about the fact that she wouldn't start laying right away. 

At this point, I would switch to plan B.

In case that the virgin is MIA on her mating flights, I would have a back up queen.   To do this I would cut out 2 of the largest
QCs from this frame and start another nuc hive.   This will increase the chance of a mated queen.   The more you can make
mated queens, the more successful you will be.     Then combine the mated queen hive with the queen less hive(s.)   I would certainly not put all
my eggs in one basket!

Interesting.  I hadn't thought about that at all.  How necessary is it to do something like that?  I feel like I'd rather not do something so invasive.  Being such a novice, I would be concerned about doing something wrong and possibly damaging some of the queen cells.  I also do not have a nuc box, all I have is mediums, but maybe that doesn't matter.  The other thing is, if I do not need the backup queen, what would I do with her then, would I start another hive?  I do see your point though, about having a backup in case something goes wrong.  What is the likelihood the virgin queen could have something happen to her on a mating flight? 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2018, 09:54:16 pm »
Member,
 What is the likelihood the virgin queen could have something happen to her on a mating flight?

A lot. I have lost a lot of queens to predators during mating flights.
I have seen virgin queens in my observation hive and have had them leave and not make it back.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline cao

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2018, 10:54:01 pm »
What is the likelihood the virgin queen could have something happen to her on a mating flight? 

In my area, I have better luck with the queens making it back earlier in the season.  This year has been good for me.  I've made about forty splits/nucs in early to mid May and have had 90-95% success with the queen making it back.  This late in the year I would estimate that it would be closer to 75%.

beepro's backup plan is a good one if you have the equipment handy and are comfortable cutting out queen cells.  I still don't like cutting out queen cells and don't have much success doing it.  I make all my splits by the frame(no matter how many queen cells are on them).  I would suggest that a nuc box or two should be on your wish list.  I think that a nuc box should be standard equipment for every new beekeeper.

Offline beepro

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2018, 11:08:44 pm »
Jim it right.  I rear queens from early Jan to mid-Oct here in a semi-desert bee environment.  Very often I have MIA virgins, especially when there is a creek nearby with dragonflies all over during the hot summer months.  I say I lose 25% of the virgins that did not make it back from their mating flights.  Some bird species also prey on these queens as well.  Still the 75% made up for the loss. 

To me it is 100% necessary to deal with this situation if I don't want to do a combine or having a LWs hive later on.  I've learn to make more QCs and mating nucs than needed just in case some did not make it back.  So for 4 hives that I want, I will make 9 QCs and mating nucs.   With limited hive space like you I put these QCs in a homemade small fridge incubator.  Now I can choose the most robust queen for the mating nucs. 

Cutting out the QCs is easy enough.  I simply use a sharp razor blade to slice through the side comb close to the QC.  Then use my thumb and index finger to loosen the cell  grabbing by the plastic cup rocking it side-by-side.  The trick is not to press the plastic cell cup too deep into the comb on a graft.   On a natural comb cell, it is better not to use the plastic foundation sheet so that cutting out the cell is much easier.  Just slice it all the way through the comb when cutting out the cell.   

Some years I have more success.  For that I either put an ads on CL for the local queen sale or make nucs to overwinter them for next Spring hive expansion or dead out replacement.  This will lessen the need to hunt for the early Spring queens as they are hard to come by then.  Early Spring queens are always in demand here!

QCs in incubator cooking now:     http://imgbox.com/Nme5RTr5
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 12:03:17 am by beepro »

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2018, 12:54:43 pm »
Hmmm....  Okay, I guess the question is, could I do this procedure without a nuc box?  I will look around and see if I could get one, but I honestly don't know if I could obtain one in time (without paying a ridiculous amount for shipping, that is).  I do have all the components to essentially put together a single medium hive, but that's it. 

My other question is, if I were to decide to not do anything, and just leave all the queen cells in, and if something did go wrong and I lost the virgin during her mating flight, at that point could I just purchase a queen, or would the hive be too far gone? 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline cao

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2018, 02:29:11 pm »
My other question is, if I were to decide to not do anything, and just leave all the queen cells in, and if something did go wrong and I lost the virgin during her mating flight, at that point could I just purchase a queen, or would the hive be too far gone? 
Yes you could just buy a mated queen if yours doesn't make it back.  Would it be worth it?  That depends on how many bees are left.  If you have at least a box of bees than I would think it would be worth while.  Remember that you have brood hatching out on the frame with the queen cells so you will still have some young bees and you could also add more brood from your other hive later if needed.

If you really want to make a nuc with your medium box you can just put a follower board or even some blocks to fill up the extra space.

This is just my opinion but I would just wait(the hardest part of beekeeping), and let the bees do what they do. 

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2018, 03:04:26 pm »
Yes you could just buy a mated queen if yours doesn't make it back.  Would it be worth it?  That depends on how many bees are left.  If you have at least a box of bees than I would think it would be worth while.  Remember that you have brood hatching out on the frame with the queen cells so you will still have some young bees and you could also add more brood from your other hive later if needed.

If you really want to make a nuc with your medium box you can just put a follower board or even some blocks to fill up the extra space.

This is just my opinion but I would just wait(the hardest part of beekeeping), and let the bees do what they do. 

Great, thank you so much, that's basically what I was hoping someone would tell me.  I appreciate knowing that there's a chance something could go wrong, but I feel like my lack of experience makes tampering with the situation more dangerous, and there is still a 75% chance that nothing will go wrong.  Coupled with the fact that I don't actually have the necessary equipment, I really just think I feel more comfortable letting the situation go.  Thanks to beepro for bringing the situation to my attention, I'm glad to know that this is something I have the option to do, and I will probably try it in the future when I am better equipped.  I'd also just like to generally thank everyone who has been helping me out with this whole issue, I'd be nowhere without all your help.  Especially Jim, Maker of Sawdust, I think you've answered every question I've asked on this thread!     
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline cao

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2018, 04:32:29 pm »
You do realize that we will expect a followup on how this turns out in 3 weeks.  :grin:

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2018, 04:36:56 pm »
Member,
As mentioned, the easiest way to make a Nuc with your medium box is to use a follower board. An easy way to make one is to just cut a thick piece of insulation to the size of a frame. Another way is to take one of your frames and staple a piece of cardboard or better yet, a piece of plastic sign board on both sides of a frame. This way as the hive grows, you can just keep moving it out until they fill the box.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline beepro

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2018, 07:34:18 pm »
It is hard for new beekeeper to experiment when their resources are limited when starting out.   I'm trying to
expand my hive numbers now.  So basically after the virgin emerged from the incubator, I just took the laying queen in to
another nuc hive using bee resources from a booming hive.   This is a 2 story deep nuc hive she was in.

Then put a QE in between the 2 nuc boxes and in each box put a virgin queen inside.   The top box will be a 1.5" hole entrance
opening for the virgin to take her mating flights.  I will use a 3" hive top cover to drill the hole in. Since the virgins are from the same batch of cells from the same breeder queen, this experiment should work.  If not at least the bees can choose their own strongest queen.   The virgins still need to take their mating
flights to see which one will return.   At least this will give me a 50/50% chance of one making it back mated.   

This is the time that using a QE is worth it!

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2018, 03:02:07 pm »
You do realize that we will expect a followup on how this turns out in 3 weeks.  :grin:
Well obviously!   :cheesy:

It is hard for new beekeeper to experiment when their resources are limited when starting out.   I'm trying to
expand my hive numbers now.  So basically after the virgin emerged from the incubator, I just took the laying queen in to
another nuc hive using bee resources from a booming hive.   This is a 2 story deep nuc hive she was in.

Then put a QE in between the 2 nuc boxes and in each box put a virgin queen inside.   The top box will be a 1.5" hole entrance
opening for the virgin to take her mating flights.  I will use a 3" hive top cover to drill the hole in. Since the virgins are from the same batch of cells from the same breeder queen, this experiment should work.  If not at least the bees can choose their own strongest queen.   The virgins still need to take their mating
flights to see which one will return.   At least this will give me a 50/50% chance of one making it back mated.   

This is the time that using a QE is worth it!
That sounds interesting.  How do the bees react to having 2 queens in the same box?  Are the workers from the same hive as the breeder queen as well? 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline beepro

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2018, 06:29:57 pm »
The breeder queen got moved to her own little nuc box.  So yes, I'm using bee resources from the same breeder queen's hive.  Nothing wrong with that as long as you give them enough time after dequeening.  This will also give them a brood break.

"How do the bees react to having 2 queens in the same box?" 

The 2 queens and all their workers, guard bees, and drones all live very happily together. On a recent mating nuc hive check, I found one virgin and one laying mother queen. See it here at http://imgbox.com/TCK0Rrqm

When resources are limited, too much growth, you have to improvise with creative ideas.  Now which one you think is the virgin and laying queen (left or right?)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 07:09:06 pm by beepro »

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2018, 02:53:37 pm »
Now which one you think is the virgin and laying queen (left or right?)
Yeah, a quiz!  (I'm weirdly academic.)  Hmmm....  I think the left one is the virgin and the right one is the laying queen.  I think that the right one's abdomen looks larger.  Also, this could just be the lighting or angle, but the right queen seems to have less hair on her thorax, does that have anything to do with it?   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2018, 02:24:58 pm »
HOORAY!!   It worked.  :grin:  Oh yeah!  I saw me a queen in the hive today, and eggs and little larvae too! On the frame of brood they'd been given all the queen cells were busted open.  I was going through the top box and looking for eggs, and the comb on the frame I was holding is pretty dark, and I wasn't seeing anything, and I was about to put it back when I noticed a little patch of cells with shiny royal jelly in the bottom.  So I backlit it with the sun again and took a closer look and I saw eggs too!  Then I pulled up the next frame and I was scanning one side and my sister was scanning the other, and suddenly my sister goes, "I see her!" and I'm like, "Where?!" and I tipped the frame over a little too fast and the whole frame went "Buzz!", and then there she was.  She looks great, got a big abdomen, she's striped unlike my other queen, who's abdomen is basically solid orange.  The hive also seems good.  I was afraid that the population would be really reduced, but honestly it was pretty full of bees.  I'M SO HAPPY!   

Now which one you think is the virgin and laying queen (left or right?)
Yeah, a quiz!  (I'm weirdly academic.)  Hmmm....  I think the left one is the virgin and the right one is the laying queen.  I think that the right one's abdomen looks larger.  Also, this could just be the lighting or angle, but the right queen seems to have less hair on her thorax, does that have anything to do with it?   
Hey, does anyone know if I got the answer right here?  I'm just curious.  :embarassed:                   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline cao

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2018, 03:10:18 pm »
Thanks for the update.  Glad to see that it worked for you.  Sometimes the hardest part of keeping bees is the waiting.

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2018, 10:32:05 pm »
The queen in the right has attendants, that would be my guess as the laying queen.  The queen in the left has only a single attendant.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Queen Cells Always Peanut Shaped?
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2018, 10:46:33 am »
My guess is they are both mated queens. The one with more attendants is probably a little more mature.
When I have virgin queens in my observation hive, the bees pretty much ignore them. It is like they are just another bee until they are mated. The second one may not be laying yet or very little.
Jim
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 11:00:46 am by sawdstmakr »
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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