A 'Pheromone Curtain'

[little john]

As this was such a good example of what I call a 'Pheromone Curtain', I thought I'd post a couple of pics.  Sometimes this behaviour - setting up a curtain of bees, all fanning pheromone outwards, is seen when a virgin takes her nuptial flight, presumably to help her locate the right hive on her return.

Some of you may recognise this hive - it's been used for anti-robbing experiments - but now the robbing is over and the nucs are stable, it's time to cull the queen in the upper brood box. Which is a pity as she's been most productive, but sadly that has come with a high price (bad behaviour).

What I found intriguing was how the bees have spaced themselves out from each other in order to maximise the plume area. As bees normally tend to cluster, I think this shows significantly purposeful behaviour.

That box entrance faces West, so you can see from the shadows this first shot was taken just after midday - probably around 1 or 2 p.m.




Here's a second shot, with the shadows indicating this was much later, probably around 6 p.m. - so they had kept up this exact behaviour all afternoon ...




Of course, they didn't know that their queen had gone for a vodka bath.  Still, they'll be getting a new queen very shortly.
LJ

[MikeyN.C.]

Is there a top entrance ? Or are bees having to pass from bottom to top through excluder ?

[Dallasbeek]

"Of course, they didn't know that their queen had gone for a vodka bath.  Still, they'll be getting a new queen very shortly."


I love it!  LOL!  All that wasted effort on their poor missing  queen's behalf   

[MikeyN.C.]

I was assuming that it was 2 queen rite hives    ?

[little john]

I was assuming that it was 2 queen rite hives    ?

The two bottom boxes are both Q+ve and physically separated from each other by a double screen mesh board.  That rig was set-up for an experiment: http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=48995.0

But it was always intended that the queen in the upper brood box was to be culled at some point, so using a double screen mesh board was one way of 'killing two birds with one stone', as in 4 or 5 days time the upper brood box will be checked for q/cells, and with luck none will have been started (due to pheromones from the Q+ve box below it), and so the two colonies can then be combined without further delay or difficulty ... at least, that's the plan !

LJ

[Acebird]

as in 4 or 5 days time the upper brood box will be checked for q/cells, and with luck none will have been started (due to pheromones from the Q+ve box below it), and so the two colonies can then be combined without further delay or difficulty ... at least, that's the plan !

LJ

It is my understanding that the pheromones are transmitted throughout the hive by contact not so much by vapors in the air.  That is not going to happen with a double screen.  It might still be wise to use newspaper if you can't afford to lose the queen in the bottom.

[little john]

Pheromones fall into two groups: volatile and non-volatile  Some are clearly volatile, such as alarm pheromone and orientation (homing) pheromone.  Others are heavier and indeed are transmitted via trophallaxis.

In the case of queenlessness - whether this be detected by a reduction in, or the absence of, Queen Mandibular or Queen Retinue Pheromones - perhaps the most persuasive demonstration of one or more components of these being volatile, can be seen in the queen raising method of Steve Rose, in which the path length between the queen-right area and the cell-raising area is greatly extended.  Bees are able to pass without hindrance from one area to the other - so the only obvious variable being affected is a reduced level of volatile pheromone due to the extra distance involved in it's passage through the woodwork.

Thus, if queenlessness can be detected by a reduction in, or the absence of, a pheromone or the volatile component of a pheromone, it would seem reasonable to conclude that the provision of that pheromone (or it's volatile component) via a double mesh screen should create the illusion of being queen-right.

Anyway, in the next few days, we shall see ...

LJ

[Acebird]

I am just thinking that traffic is the reason that the volatile part of the pheromone gets spread out.  If a skunk is killed on the hiway the smell goes for miles long after the skunk is dead.  If it is killed in the woods the smell only goes a few feet.  The constant traffic mostly going in one direction drags the smell with it.  There is very little smell when approaching the dead animal from the other direction.

[little john]

Well - you could well be right.  There has been a debate for a while now as to whether the Snelgrove Board should have mesh on both sides of the central hole, or just on one side.  Some are saying that more fighting occurs when the double mesh board is used prior to combining, than with the single mesh.  Whereas others don't see such problems.

I'll take extra care when combining and to some degree be guided by whether emergency queen cells have been drawn or not.  If there ARE q/cells present, then I'll certainly adopt some kind of 'contact'-based introduction.
LJ

[Acebird]

I'll be watching for your results.

[little john]

Monday midday.

I took a look inside the stack about an hour ago, and to be perfectly honest, I'd not expected to find a single q/cell in the upper brood box.  Had I found one or perhaps two, then I'd have put this down to the supercedure impulse due to reduced (volatile) pheromone levels.
But what I found were q/cells in abundance - I stopped counting at six, and that was only after checking 3 frames of the 11.

So Brian, this event certainly supports your view regarding the nature of the transmission of those pheromones which confirm queen presence and her health status. It also supports the opinions of those who are critical of double-screened Snelgrove Boards.

This finding will now require me to replace one mesh of this double-screen board by a Queen Excluder, so that the the bees can make contact, but not the queens.  All my other boards are of the Q/X type.

I've been trying to figure out an explanation for the increased distance of the Steve Rose method of cell raising being it's essential feature.  Perhaps during trophallaxis the chemical becomes diluted ?  That would explain why increased distance (as presumably there's an increased number of bees in the chain ?) gives the impression of queenlessness, despite there being a queen in residence.

Ok, as to my own situation, I won't now be combining - but instead, in two days time I'll go through the upper box with a fine toothcomb and remove every q/cell there, and then give them a comb with a desirable q/cell which hopefully will meet with their acceptance.

Live'n'Learn ... 

Many thanks Brian - appreciated.
LJ

[BeeMaster2]

It is the queens retinue (sometimes called Royal Court) that transfer the queens pheromones around the hive. They pick them up from the queen  and proceed to go through the hive letting the rest of the bees know that the queen is alive and healthy.
Jim

[Acebird]

Many thanks Brian - appreciated.
LJ

I don't know if I deserve any credit for anything all I have been doing is thinking out loud.
With so many queen cells wouldn't that signify that the hive was preparing for a swarm and not just replacing a missing queen?  I can't say as I understand what happened.

[little john]

It is the queens retinue (sometimes called Royal Court) that transfer the queens pheromones around the hive. They pick them up from the queen  and proceed to go through the hive letting the rest of the bees know that the queen is alive and healthy.
Jim

Hi Jim - sure, as I've discovered, that's the current thinking ...

But distribution of pheromone by trophallaxis doesn't appear to explain how an increased path length (as in the Steve Rose method) generates the deception of queenlessness - unless it's simply a question of decreased traffic as a result of the longer distance.

More significantly perhaps, is it doesn't appear to explain the rapid detection of queen removal, which can sometimes occur in less than a minute.  But at other times, a colony appears unaware the queen has gone for 10 minutes or more.  Curious.

Indeed, it was the rapidity of detection which I've witnesed on many occasions which caused me to make the false assumption regarding volatility.

LJ

[little john]

With so many queen cells wouldn't that signify that the hive was preparing for a swarm and not just replacing a missing queen?  I can't say as I understand what happened.

These are the q/cells which were removed.  They range from 'top left' which was fully capped, to the third one from the left (same row) which had only just been started.  The two clumps on the right both have four cells each - so that's a total of sixteen queen cells which had been started.  But how many would have 'survived the distance' is anyone's guess of course.




As a comparison, I've just re-started a Clemens Q-ve hive with three brood combs, and on inspection yesterday two of them have at least six cells each - which are actually fairly low numbers for this kind of starter-finisher.  I removed the bees from one of them and gave it to the 'problem hive' that I'd just de-q/celled.

I'll check for early capping today and tomorrow, and cull any early caps, then wait until nearer the emergence date, and either cut-out (if I need them), or squish the excess, leaving just three good ones in place.
LJ

[maclesan]

Maclesan
The discussion on pheromones was so interesting to this ancient amateur beek from the Darling Downs in Qld. Great stuff folks


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[little john]

G'day.  Glad to see some of the stuff from earlier in the year is still proving of interest ...

Here's another example of this 'fanning' to (presumably) assist a virgin home - either that or advertising for any passing virgin who may have become lost:




Again, the bees are well-spread out and fanning away.  Very different from this:




Which is not actually 'bearding' in the true sense (although it looks rather like it), but a colony which has just had a box change and are refusing to move into their new home.  But they relented after an hour or so of debating the issue amongst themselves.

Yes - pheromones - 'hive odour' - call it/them what you like - it does appear to be at the very heart of hive regulation.  There's a good write-up about pheromones on Randy Oliver's site, and there's a good Wiki on the subject.  The latest one to catch my attention is 'footprint pheromone' - which tells the bees where the queen has been, or where she hasn't.  Fascinating stuff.

Happy New Year folks.
LJ

[MikeyN.C.]

Happy new year,  good read,interesting test , keep us updated.