Is woodware interchangeable?

[Bee Curious]

I'm still in the reading-up stage to set up a hive next spring.  I am enjoying reading the catalogs I have received from vendors such as Dadant, Mann Lake, and others.  My question is: Is the woodware sized to be 100% interchangeable--if I buy supers from one supplier, will it fit on another supplier's screened bottom board?  Will all the inner covers and telescoping covers fit on all boxes?  Will Vendor A's boxes sit perfectly on Vendor B's boxes?  Are all medium frames universal for medium boxes?

In other words, is there any pitfalls in buying from multiple suppliers when it comes to woodware?

[AllenF]

Yes.   And no.   As far as I am concerned (and most every one else)  they are all fit.   But there are 1/8 inch difference between all the makers.  No 2 are alike.   And I bet a 10 year old box and frames would be different from the same maker of today.   There was a study in one of the bee journals about 2 years ago on this.   They measured all the makers and listed all the sizes of frames and boxes.  But I would not sweat it.  I use them all.  I have 40 year old homemade frames with nail for ends.   Crazy looking frames.   But they still work.  So my brushy frames work well on my Rossman boxes.   

[kingbee]

... My question is: Is the woodware sized to be 100% interchangeable ...Are all medium frames universal for medium boxes?... is there any pitfalls in buying from multiple suppliers when it comes to woodware?

Yes, or no.  Boxes from Better Bee I am told are made from 7/8 inch thick boards instead of 3/4 inch thick boards.  The interior measurements are the same but the extra 1/8 inch thickness per board makes a 1/4 inch difference in both length and in width.  This is not considered a problem.  Since I do not own any of these boxes this is hearsay on my part.

There is or was such a thing as top bee space boxes verses bottom bee space boxes.  The frames for these boxes are also usually different.  All tops, covers, and bottoms were or are interchangeable.  The frame in a top bee space box sits 5/16 to 3/8 of an inch below the top edge of the box, while the bottom bar of the frame hangs dead even with the lower edge of the box or super.

A bottom bee space box or frame is dead even with the top of the box or super and has a 5/16 to 3/8 inch space between the bottom of the frames and the lower edge of the box.

Ask your supplier which type of box or frames you are ordering.  If they don't know don't spaz, just ask to speak to someone who does know.  Tops can be a bear to pry loose from bottom space boxes because given enough time the bees will glue or propolize the flush top bars tightly to the bottom of the lid.  In case you ever put a top space box over a bottom space box, upload your first inspection video to you-tube, we could all use a laugh.  :laugh: Top space boxes (I think) are now the industry standard, but don't think, know.  Good luck.

[Jim134]

 

:laugh: Top space boxes (I think) are now the industry standard, but don't think, know.  Good luck.

 I do not know this ???


  I would like to know why most vendor deep boxer on deeps are 9 5/8" and deep frames
are 9 1/8 " (all the deep  frames I found from all vendor are 9 1/8"this may charge)  :laugh:
this as 1/2 bee space the only vendor I found that make 9 1/2" deep boxer is
Humble Abodes Inc.! in Windon,ME. is their more ??? who make 9 1/8'' deep boxer ???


http://www.humbleabodesinc.com/

  

         BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[Sundog]

All dimensions have a "tolerance" regarding what is acceptable, "perfect" being determined in large part by how many decimal places measured to.  I would guess that the tolerance on wooden ware is around 1/16" (.0625"), so if one comes in large and the other small you could have 1/8" difference.

Articles that come from the same manufacturer A's tooling will be very close to each other but not necessarily to manufacturer B's.  So if you stay with the same supplier your deviations should be less.

Google "10 frame bee hive plans" and you will see the "nominal" dimensions.  I hesitate to use the term "industry standard", but I think they are widely accepted.

I am certain however that Beeks worry more about such things than bees.

Have fun!

[Bee Curious]

Thanks to all who replied.  What got me thinking about 'mixing and matching' was finding that some woodenware is made from pine and some from cedar or cypress.  I thought,"Hmmm, cedar might be better for a bottom board or telescoping top because it is more rot resistant and probably a bit more weather resistant. Pine should do for the boxes, as they will be well painted and easy to replace and repaint if necessary."

[asprince]

I have all kinds of boxes and equipment. Cedar, cypress, pine, box joint, dovetailed, store bought, home made. old, very old, and new. I mix it all up and the bees make it work.


Steve

[Bee Curious]

Yes, or no.  Boxes from Better Bee I am told are made from 7/8 inch thick boards instead of 3/4 inch thick boards.  The interior measurements are the same but the extra 1/8 inch thickness per board makes a 1/4 inch difference...

There is or was such a thing as top bee space boxes verses bottom bee space boxes.  

This is really valuable info, that I have not read elsewhere.  This forum rocks for all the information and experience available.  Thanks, kingbee!

 In case you ever put a top space box over a bottom space box, upload your first inspection video to you-tube, we could all use a laugh.  :laugh: Top space boxes (I think) are now the industry standard, but don't think, know.  Good luck.

Very funny.  :shock:  Thanks for the headsup.

[tryintolearn]

oh yesss yes it does...finding lots of valuable info here as well

[Intheswamp]

Here's a list of widths of 8-frame equipment that I rounded up.  Not sure if it'll help, but... :)

Ed

Rossman 13-3/4"
Kelleys 13-3/4" (ok, I just looked and Kelleys is stating 13-13/16")
Miller 13-3/4"
Brushy Mountain 13-3/4"
Dadant 13-3/4"
Mann Lake 14"
Betterbee 14"
Western Bee state standard as being 13-3/4" but will cut to your specs.

[kingbee]

...   I would like to know why most vendor deep boxer on deeps are 9 5/8" and deep frames are 9 1/8 " [deep]...

'Bound' if I know Jim.  I was planning to ask you why a 9 5/8 box takes a 9 1/8 inch frame but the 9 1/8 inch frame requires an 8 3/4 inch foundation?  Looks like someone stole 7/8 of an inch.  :laugh:  :-D 

[kingbee]

Here's one for you.  
Why is Rossman Aperies selling 9 5/8 boxes but 9 1/8 frames while at the same time selling 8 3/4 inch tall plastic foundation designed to fit in an 8 1/2 inch frame they claim is 9 1/8 inches tall but yet it "fits" a 9 5/8 inch box???

http://www.gabees.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=149
  

[ApalacheeRiverFarms]

I don't always pick up on sarcasm well especially in the written word, but I hope that's what I'm seeing folks...  bee space... frame space...

[AllenF]

Bee space = A space between and 3/8 inch which permits free passage for a bee but too small to encourage comb building, and too large to induce propolizing.

[ApalacheeRiverFarms]

I was answering about the reason for the difference in sizes. Difference in hive height and frame height is bee space. Diff in frame height and foundation height is frame wood plus wiggle room. most boxes I've seen have a small space on top of the frames and 3/8" between the bottom of the frames and bottom of the box... Thus the 9-5/8 box and 9-1/8" frame. Frame rest cutout is 5/8" deep and frame top bar ends are about 1/2".

[Bee Curious]

I was answering about the reason for the difference in sizes. Difference in hive height and frame height is bee space. Diff in frame height and foundation height is frame wood plus wiggle room. most boxes I've seen have a small space on top of the frames and 3/8" between the bottom of the frames and bottom of the box... Thus the 9-5/8 box and 9-1/8" frame. Frame rest cutout is 5/8" deep and frame top bar ends are about 1/2".

To add to my confusion, I notice Mann Lake's catalog says that their frame rest rabbet is 3/8" :idunno:      

I guess I'll buy my boxes and frames from the same company to make sure things work correctly.

[annette]

I have found them to be a bit different but not so much that I cannot use them. Although I did purchase Walter Kelley frames that hung different in my Mann Lake supers and that was sort of strange.

I would advice you to purchase all from one company and not have any problems.

By the way, welcome to the forum as I just noticed you here. I really like your avatar photo of that flower.

Sincerely
Annette

[Bee Curious]

Thanks for the welcome, Annette.  It's very easy to feel "at home" here, as everyone is so helpful. 

The flower is a water lily. I volunteer at the Chicago Botanic Garden (so I can be near plants and not go crazy during our long grey winters) and I am always mesmerized by the water lilies.

[kingbee]

... To add to my confusion, I notice Mann Lake's catalog says that their frame rest rabbet is 3/8"

Not to worry. I suspect that 3/8 of an inch is only the horizontal rabbet measurement.  The vertical measurement should be or likely is 5/8 of an inch.  Any box with this size frame rest (5/8 X 3/8) and that is also 9 5/8 inch tall overall will do fine with almost any new deep (9 1/8) frame made today.  A peek at Barry's hive plans may help you understand the terms or concepts.

[Intheswamp]

All my frames have come from Kelley and my boxes from Rossman.  I've had *very* little burr comb built between boxes.  Not a bad match up.  I have measured using these vendors merchandise and the bee space is pretty well spot on between box/frame units at 3/8".  In case it makes a difference box/frame units were 8-frame mediums and the frames were wedge-top/bottom-groove.

Ed

[AllenF]

I still mix and match.  Second hand frames from who knows where in new boxes.   Old wore out boxes with new store bought frames.  Lots of brushy frames in rossman boxes.   They all work. 

[Bee Curious]

... To add to my confusion, I notice Mann Lake's catalog says that their frame rest rabbet is 3/8"

...  A peek at Barry's hive plans may help you understand the terms or concepts.

I'll check them out.  Are they here on Beemaster or are they the ones on Beesource?

[kingbee]

Beesource.

[ApalacheeRiverFarms]

The rabbit is 3/8" wide and 5/8" deep. The 3/8" is half the thickness of the end boards (3/4"). This seems to be pretty standard. I have some of my father in laws stuff that's maybe 40 years old and they measure the same as my home made stuff and brushy's boxes I have. The only real problem you would run into is boxes that aren't long enough and the frames fit tight longways... I have a couple old boxes that were hand made that are a little too short for my brushy frames. I have some old frames too that fit them just fine though. I wouldn't lose any sleep over mixing and matching any of the major vendors. If I could find a good (cheap) vendor for 1x12s, I would build all my boxes because I enjoy that aspect of it... Gives me my carpentry fix.

[kingbee]

... If I could find a good (cheap) vendor for 1x12s, I would build all my boxes because I enjoy that aspect of it... Gives me my carpentry fix.

I’ve walked on several good deals on 13 inch wood planers because of my concerns about my future health.
But there is a country saw mill not 3 miles from me, that sells air dried Yaller popular for 55 cents per board foot.   Yaller pine boards when available are slightly higher.

At .55 cents a         

10 frame x 9 5/8  box or super = $3.40 *
  8 frame X 9 5/8 box or super = $3.20 *
10 frame X 6 5/8 box or super = $2.30 *
  8 frame X 6 5/8 box or super = $2.15 *

There are also assorted waste involved with any and all wood working projects including but not limited to knotty, split and/or badly warped, cupped, and bowed or twisted boards.  That is the problem with a natural building material like wood, it’s natural.

*All prices are approximate.

[ApalacheeRiverFarms]

Ever ran rough cut wood through a planer?  Can't take much off per cut and it's pretty slow. It also creates a ton of saw dust. I'd say you would have at least ten minutes in each box just planing and that's if you didn't also need a jointer to true up the edges... Saw mill stuff also will warp, bow, cup, twist, and do everything but get up and run off a lot of times... Neighbor down the road tried to sell me some poplar he cut up... It was almost an inch thick, rough, cracked, cupped and curved. Too much hassle for $8 for a 12 footer...  Wasn't even a good price. 8' 1x12" pine shelf boards from lowes aren't bad... I think they were $8 or so so that's about $6 a box. Medium boxes seem like the wood only runs $5 which is good if you have the time and enjoy it.

Besides... In my experience with the nice Dewalt Planer, the blades dull fast and are pretty expensive too.

[kingbee]

I agree about the planer, but board edges can be trued on a table saw by using a sled.

[ApalacheeRiverFarms]

To use a sled yould need to cut your four sides out and make three more cuts to each piece to square up all four corners for 16 cuts per box plus hand holds and rabbits. Rough cut just doesn't seem cost/time efficient.

[Sundog]

In other words, is there any pitfalls in buying from multiple suppliers when it comes to woodware?

Curious, the worst part of “buying” is typically the cost of shipping.  That really drives up the cost.  If you only want or expect to only have a hive or two, and are handy with a saw, consider making a Kenyan Top Bar Hive.  They are cheap, flexible and can be a lot of fun and a very good way to learn about bees.  You can find lots of good videos showing them on Youtube.

Have fun!

[asprince]

My friend has a band saw saw mill. We make hundreds of boxes, tops, bottoms and thousands of frames every year from air dried pine. We get the logs for free. It is well worth our time and effort. 


Steve

[bakoplan]

I found out the hard way that Kelley and Mann Lake Nuc box components are NOT interchangeable. Mann Lake is slightly wider, therefore Kelley lids and bottoms are too narrow (almost a half inch differential).