Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: CapnChkn on May 03, 2020, 06:26:15 am
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CBS news. It seems the monsters have made it to our shores. I can't imagine how. Does this onslaught ever stop?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/murder-hornets-have-now-entered-the-u-s-and-they-could-decimate-the-honeybee-population/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6a&linkId=87805719&fbclid=IwAR1SxIJQ9W1sTZuwnMyXT6Qn_tY8tZRQ2yfVzD3_yjFg_fdLXwsq9XKKmA8
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Capt,
I suspect that problems like this hornet are being brought into this country to cause problems for our beekeepers. The Chinese have been trying for years to under cut honey prices to put beekeepers out of business.
Jim Altmiller
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Hey Jim!
I don't think it's actually a conspiracy, it's more of an Industrial disease. We've been introducing negative species to our environment for hundreds of years. Sometimes intentional. You live in Jacksonville, and I spent 30 years there, from 1983 until 2009. I watched the woods go from mostly Palmetto, to a species they call "Winter Honeysuckle" up here in the Tennessee valley. While surveying, I cut through miles of the stuff.
Using that logic, we would also have to use the invasion of SHB as an attempt to corner the honey market by African honey producers, which I can tell you by correspondence with a Nigerian beekeeper, is almost non-existent. This guy heard he could increase his honey production by using Langstroths, and wanted to know how to make one, because they didn't have a market there. He still uses KTBH.
I suppose the Chinese or other aggressors from Asia may have introduced the hornet, but that's kind of a "doomsday" machine scenario. That would reduce the actual production of honey in these environments, because the only species that has a natural defense against these monsters is Apis Cerana. They are honey producers, and used commercially, but not as productive as A. Mellifera.
I speculate they hitched a ride on a cargo ship, along with all the crappy, cheap, Chinese junk that gets shipped here for pennies in volume.
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I think one or both above are correct. On a good note, the Asian hornet can easily be excluded from a hive due to its size. However, the forager honeybees would be helpless.
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I?m not sure but I am thinking they wait on the outside for bees to enter and exit? I watched a National Geographic film or something similar far before I began beekeeping and it seems from a vague memory, this is what I watched. Is this the same creature as the Japanese hornet?
There is a fish running lose in Florida called the snakehead, I do not know much about it except it also came from the east. I doubt it hitched on a cargo ship, and no pun intended. There are many invasive species here now. All with their own story of how they got here.
That?s one of the problems with dealing with governments which have very different ideologies than our own. Suspicion can be easily surmised and sometimes rightly so.
I think Ron Paul hit it right, trade is good. But at the same time under solid guidelines and rules which must be closely followed.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/02/us/asian-giant-hornet-washington.html
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Yeah, a lot of the invasive species in Florida are introduced through the pet trade. Pythons, Walking catfish, Snakeheads, and Geckos were all released from somebody's fish tank, or escaped to breed and make trouble.
I watched the native Anole population in Jacksonville go to Geckos, then the Geckos disappeared and the Anoles came back. I can't say how that happened...
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Richard Noel a fellow beekeeper from Brittany, has been dealing with them. You might find this interesting.
https://youtu.be/us0mkzcG_HI
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very interesting Ben, and I may be wrong, but I think the one in the news is different than the one Richard is talking about [either that or the one I've seen is a queen] See what you think - check the link I posted earlier
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/05/01/us/00ASIAN-HORNETS-deadhornet/merlin_171970938_95ae4252-c96f-4d0e-8118-6d813f3f20e0-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp
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Of course it happens in my state. Very close to me in fact :cry:
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I?m not sure but I am thinking they wait on the outside for bees to enter and exit? I watched a National Geographic film or something similar far before I began beekeeping and it seems from a vague memory, this is what I watched. Is this the same creature as the Japanese hornet?
There is a fish running lose in Florida called the snakehead, I do not know much about it except it also came from the east. I doubt it hitched on a cargo ship, and no pun intended. There are many invasive species here now. All with their own story of how they got here.
That?s one of the problems with dealing with governments which have very different ideologies than our own. Suspicion can be easily surmised and sometimes rightly so.
I think Ron Paul hit it right, trade is good. But at the same time under solid guidelines and rules which must be closely followed.
Phil, I think the Japanese hornet is the critter in the bees found in Washington state. This hornet destroys an Italian hive in a matter of hours. Nat. Geo did a documentary on the Japanese hornets. Only takes about 60 hornets to kill a hive of 30,000 Italian honey bees. The hornets go for the honeybee brood.
What was interesting in the Nat geo. Video is the local bees, cerena has evolved to heat kill the Japanese hornet scouts, avoiding an attack by the main hornet hive.
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https://www.cbsnews.com/news/murder-hornets-have-now-entered-the-u-s-and-they-could-decimate-the-honeybee-population/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6a&linkId=87805719&fbclid=IwAR1SxIJQ9W1sTZuwnMyXT6Qn_tY8tZRQ2yfVzD3_yjFg_fdLXwsq9XKKmA8
I have never heard anyone call Asian giant hornets "murder hornets". Sure, let's make people MORE afraid of "bees". :angry: Even this article states they are unlikely to target humans.
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I?m not sure but I am thinking they wait on the outside for bees to enter and exit? I watched a National Geographic film or something similar far before I began beekeeping and it seems from a vague memory, this is what I watched. Is this the same creature as the Japanese hornet?
Phil, I think the Japanese hornet is the critter in the bees found in Washington state. This hornet destroys an Italian hive in a matter of hours. Nat. Geo did a documentary on the Japanese hornets. Only takes about 60 hornets to kill a hive of 30,000 Italian honey bees. The hornets go for the honeybee brood.
What was interesting in the Nat geo. Video is the local bees, cerena has evolved to heat kill the Japanese hornet scouts, avoiding an attack by the main hornet hive.
Richard Noel a fellow beekeeper from Brittany, has been dealing with them. You might find this interesting.
very interesting Ben, and I may be wrong, but I think the one in the news is different than the one Richard is talking about [either that or the one I've seen is a queen] See what you think - check the link I posted earlier
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/05/01/us/00ASIAN-HORNETS-deadhornet/merlin_171970938_95ae4252-c96f-4d0e-8118-6d813f3f20e0-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp
I think we are getting a little confused here by the very similar common names; lets get some help from taxonomy.
The hornets that have just invaded the northwestern US are Vespa mandarinia, the Asian Giant Hornet. The species also now includes the Japanese Giant Hornet, which used to be considered a distinct subspecies, Vespa mandarinia japonica, but it has been reclassified and is now not considered to be different from the Asian Giant Hornet.
The hornets shown in Richard's video that Ben Framed posted are Asian Hornets (not Asian Giant Hornets), Vespa velutina. These are invasive to Europe, but have not been seen in the US.
Both species can decimate Apis mellifera hives because our honey bees do not have the mechanisms to defend against them that Apis cerana does.
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Thanks everyone for the clarification and pictures. I hope they get these rounded up! Be on the lookout Xerox!
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Yep! Richard Noel mentions the native hornet, Vespa Crabro, several times. He also mentions the native species is slightly larger. We've had the European Hornet in the US for over 100 years. They like to nest in cavities the same as Honeybees, and I occasionally find a queen has started a nest in one of my swarm traps.
Member, LOL! Yep, the nickname in Japan for the Giant hornet is "Murder Hornet." It's not that they are more poisonous, but that the huge critters have so much more to inject. They kill about 50 people a year in Japan.
I suppose this giant could be kept in check, as far as honeybee hives go, by building a one way entrance. One the bees could go in and out of, but the scout hornets would be channeled into a holding area. Since their habit is to find honeybee colonies, then go home and bring the troops, it would be the best strategy to capture the scouts before they can bring the rest of the plunderers.
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I understand that apis cerana is able to critically raise the temp when they ball a hornet, as opposed to our western bees.
Is the cerana so much of a lesser honey producer and smaller hive maker that it is worse than our bee?
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Raising the temperature by balling is how European Honey Bees kill Bumble Bees that enter the hive, and how worker bees often kill queens that enter the wrong hive when returning from mating flights or excess queens in swarms. Unless the temperature required to kill the Asian Giant Hornet is much greater than that required to kill Bumble Bees our bees should be able to do the job.
My understanding is the trait lacking in our bees is the trait to detect and instantly mass and capture the hornet.
Van; The Snakehead escaped from a fish farmer's pond here in Arkansas and that is what began it's spread. It's the same thing that happened with the Asian Carp that escaped from the State Hatchery in Lonoke.
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Here in the land down under they had a problem with the Cane Beetle eating the cane about 100 years ago (or so)
So they had a *brilliant* idea - lets introduce the Cane Toad - that will eat the Cane Beetle and solve everything!
Except the Cane Toad doesn't eat Cane Beetles at all.... and has no natural predator here and is poisonous if anything tries to eat it... and they like to make baby Cane Toads a lot...
We have a few introduced species here we shouldn't have (anyone for carp? they have messed up a bunch of rivers) and can attest that its a 'very bad idea indeed'
Thankfully we don't have veroa mite (yet)
And yeah, maybe don't call it a 'murder wasp' if you don't want people exterminating *everything* that looks like a bee/wasp...
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I understand that apis cerana is able to critically raise the temp when they ball a hornet, as opposed to our western bees.
Is the cerana so much of a lesser honey producer and smaller hive maker that it is worse than our bee?
Yes. Our friends down under are constantly fighting to keep them from invading Australia.
Jim Altmiller
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Bob, Yep. It's the reason they try introducing Apis Mellifera to the Far East. A. Mellifera is indigenous to Africa. The theory is, there was a large forest that stretched from Asia to Africa millions of years ago. The Apis genus flourished all along that forest. Climates changed, creating a rift in that jungle, separating the population.
The honeybees that lived in the Western half adapted to the climate of Africa, which became steadily drier, and harsher. The populations developed behavior that caused them to work harder, store food more quickly, and reproduce readily.
Somewhere along the line, they moved into the forests of Europe and Central Asia, became gentler because they didn't have predators like the Honey Badger, Honeyguide, and Humans, swarmed less, and found larger cavities to build in so they could survive cold winters, and store enough honey to get through them.
A. Mellifera has pretty much replaced the native "stingless" honeybees that the Maya and their ancestors raised for thousands of years. These are one of the bees that pollinate Tomatoes, by the way. Producing about a cup of surplus honey a season.
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> The theory is, there was a large forest that stretched from Asia to Africa millions of years ago. The Apis genus flourished all along that forest. Climates changed, creating a rift in that jungle, separating the population.
Yes due to the warm fires 🔥 the cave men used to cook and ward off attacks from wild animals. Not to mention all the fossil fuels those dumb cave mens omitted into the atmosphere. Lol J/K Cap. The climate has and will continue to change.
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Some terrifying and very educational videos of the Japanese Giant Hornet:
30 Japanese Giant Hornets vs. 30,000 bees
Yes, just 30 vs 30,000. In 3 hours...
Terrifying for a hive and beekeeper. :(
Amazing videography but very sad video:
https://youtu.be/EZ1eAM8CChc
Video of a human sting experiment from the Japanese Giant Hornet:
https://youtu.be/i7VMcMJBjD4
Follow up review and discussion 12-hours after the sting in the video above.
https://youtu.be/YR6RZ4ITqyw
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Here is how to trap them:
https://agr.wa.gov/departments/insects-pests-and-weeds/insects/hornets/trapping
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This guy is a New Zealander, and has been living in Japan for 25 years. He has a number of videos about beekeeping and the pests involved. It seems the Japanese use glue traps to catch them, and while they struggle, colony mates try to come to attack whatever is bothering the trapped one.
I remember when the biggest problem I had with honeybees was getting stung...
https://youtu.be/PCaTQ_8F3vY
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Ha Ha! Ben, yep, but not over a period of 50 years!
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Time to inject some humor into this topic ...
... :cheesy:
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Haha! :cheesy:
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So befitting of the times! Ha!
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Here is how to trap them
good information, I couldn't help thinking, 2020 sees new breed of bounty hunters, when reading
All worthy post, and I loved the cartoon
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Another interesting article
In Japan, the ?Murder Hornet? Is Both a Lethal Threat and a Tasty Treat - Long before the insects found their way to American shores, some Japanese prized them for their numbing crunch and the venomous buzz they add to liquor.
Here is the link if you want to read more https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/world/asia/murder-hornet-japan.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200506&instance_id=18254&nl=the-morning®i_id=77652489&segment_id=26699&te=1&user_id=e1e75eb657191a937f1da779bbb42a06
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I seem to be reporting some "fake news" here, it turns out the common name for the insect in Japan is "ōsuzumebachi," meaning "great sparrow bee." But there was a few popular media outlets that referred to the hornet as "satsujin suzumebachi," or "murder hornet." That got sent to a New York Times reporter and stuck. No pun intended...
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I seem to be reporting some "fake news" here, it turns out the common name for the insect in Japan is "ōsuzumebachi," meaning "great sparrow bee." But there was a few popular media outlets that referred to the hornet as "satsujin suzumebachi," or "murder hornet." That got sent to a New York Times reporter and stuck. No pun intended...
It seems there may have been some name confusion due to reclassification of subspecies a while back, but the reports in general are correct even though many people still call it the Japanese Giant Hornet, or lesser accepted Murder Hornet. The bottom line is the Asian Giant Hornet (Vespa mandarinia) it is, without question. Here's a link below to Washington State's Dept. of Agriculture page which confirms two verified reports. It also indicates that the hornets were also discovered in Canada in late 2019 as well...I hadn't heard about that.
<snippet from WSDA page>
Asian giant hornet (Vespa mandarinia) is the world's largest species of hornet. In December 2019, WSDA received and verified two reports of Asian giant hornet near Blaine. These are the first-ever sighting in the United States. Canada had also discovered Asian giant hornet in two locations in British Columbia in the fall of 2019.
<snippet from WSDA page>
WSDA source page:
https://agr.wa.gov/departments/insects-pests-and-weeds/insects/hornets
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Here's a voice of reason. It seems they haven't found more than one nest, but they did find a colony in British Columbia, and a dead hornet in Blaine Washington. I'm getting mixed results from this, this article says they think the hornet from Washington is from the colony that was destroyed in BC.
University of California - Division of Agriculture and Natural Resources:
The Hornet Wars: 'A Bloody Dumpster Fire'
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=41403&fbclid=IwAR08WSQ3yVV2KPt5LgU74z-CfsVm5BX8QBZJjB4TJtrYp30P37OAvlIvM7c
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Here's a voice of reason. It seems they haven't found more than one nest, but they did find a colony in British Columbia, and a dead hornet in Blaine Washington. I'm getting mixed results from this, this article says they think the hornet from Washington is from the colony that was destroyed in BC.
University of California - Division of Agriculture and Natural Resources:
The Hornet Wars: 'A Bloody Dumpster Fire'
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=41403&fbclid=IwAR08WSQ3yVV2KPt5LgU74z-CfsVm5BX8QBZJjB4TJtrYp30P37OAvlIvM7c
I hope the article is correct and that is the end of it.
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If they are in BC they will soon be here also? No natural barriers to stop them? I haven?t read the article yet. How many miles inland where they found?
Supposedly the nest in BC was eradicated and they think the dead one found in Blaine may have been from there. Approx 32 miles from Vancouver to Blaine via roads (not as the hornet flies.) ;) Blaine is the first US town that you enter from the Peace Arch border crossing.
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Thanks Jurassic, I read and modified my statement while you were posting. I hope that is the end of the road for these invaders of North America for now anyway. Thanks for your response.
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Yeah, I hope it's done too. This stuff just keeps writing itself...
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Yeah, I hope it's done too. This stuff just keeps writing itself...
Hahaha, that?s funny. Thanks for the laugh.
Indeed, BD, let?s hope this has been snuffed. It?s definitely not an enemy any of us want to contend with.
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We have had the Japanese version since the late 80s. They will grab a forager now and then from the front of the hive, but they are not in sufficient numbers to present a problem to bees or people. They are probably 4x the weight of a normal hornet. The sting is quite unpleasant. Imagine holding 4-5 honeybees to the same spot. My leg heated up and swelled for an hour and the initial pain of the sting was probably 7-8 minutes as if it was still stinging. It left a dent below my skin and eventually a small scar.
However, I stand by what I said. They are no threat to us, or 99.999% of our bees. Just another story to stoke fear and sell advertising. imo
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We have had the Japanese version since the late 80s. They will grab a forager now and then from the front of the hive, but they are not in sufficient numbers to present a problem to bees or people. They are probably 4x the weight of a normal hornet. The sting is quite unpleasant. Imagine holding 4-5 honeybees to the same spot. My leg heated up and swelled for an hour and the initial pain of the sting was probably 7-8 minutes as if it was still stinging. It left a dent below my skin and eventually a small scar.
However, I stand by what I said. They are no threat to us, or 99.999% of our bees. Just another story to stoke fear and sell advertising. imo
Welcome JojoBeeBoy. Where are you located? I was under the impression that the Japanese version has yet to make it here to America. I may be wrong. I do not want any part of them lol.
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We have had the Japanese version since the late 80s. They will grab a forager now and then from the front of the hive, but they are not in sufficient numbers to present a problem to bees or people. They are probably 4x the weight of a normal hornet. The sting is quite unpleasant. Imagine holding 4-5 honeybees to the same spot. My leg heated up and swelled for an hour and the initial pain of the sting was probably 7-8 minutes as if it was still stinging. It left a dent below my skin and eventually a small scar.
However, I stand by what I said. They are no threat to us, or 99.999% of our bees. Just another story to stoke fear and sell advertising. imo
Are you sure you aren't seeing European hornets? They are essentially the same size, just a different color.
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I know were talking about miser hornets but check this Queen European hornet out. She had started a nest in one my swarm boxes. I missed her this morning so I left it. Knew she would be back. Got her this evening. She had 4 eggs laid.
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Very well could be European. It's one of those things where we were told they were Japanese 30 years ago and it stuck.
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We have had the Japanese version since the late 80s. They will grab a forager now and then from the front of the hive, but they are not in sufficient numbers to present a problem to bees or people. They are probably 4x the weight of a normal hornet. The sting is quite unpleasant. Imagine holding 4-5 honeybees to the same spot. My leg heated up and swelled for an hour and the initial pain of the sting was probably 7-8 minutes as if it was still stinging. It left a dent below my skin and eventually a small scar.
However, I stand by what I said. They are no threat to us, or 99.999% of our bees. Just another story to stoke fear and sell advertising. imo
Are you sure you aren't seeing European hornets? They are essentially the same size, just a different color.
I confess, I am confused on the two species. This is a picture oF the European Hornet? Will the European Hornet kill bees the same as the Japanese Hornet as they are the same size, unless the different species prefer a different diet? HELP MEMBER. lol
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I confess, I am confused on the two species. This is a picture oF the European Hornet? Will the European Hornet kill bees the same as the Japanese Hornet as they are the same size, unless the different species prefer a different diet? HELP MEMBER. lol
:grin: The picture I posted and the picture Nock posted (impressive, by the way) are both the European hornets. Notice that the European hornets have a dark head, whereas the Asian Giant hornet has a yellow head. European hornets were introduced to the US sometime in the 1800s, and are native to Europe, as their name suggests. They will catch and eat honey bees, and can often be found hovering around hives trying to catch a meal, but unlike the Asian Giant Hornets, they will not invade a strong hive en masse. The Asian Giant hornets' ability to do this is what makes them so dangerous to a European honey bee colony.
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Yeah I?ve seen the European around here since I was a kid. I do see them around my hives as well. As member said they will eat bees.
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Yeah I?ve seen the European around here since I was a kid. I do see them around my hives as well. As member said they will eat bees.
The picture y?all posted of this hornet looks like it would be an awesome terror.
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Here is a video I posted on IG about a week ago. If this is European, then that is what we have in TN. And while their sting is quite unpleasant, I still think the media hype, fear and high blood pressure is much worse than the hornet will ever be, to us or bees.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CAQLs3slhIm/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link (https://www.instagram.com/p/CAQLs3slhIm/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link)
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Here is a video I posted on IG about a week ago. If this is European, then that is what we have in TN. And while their sting is quite unpleasant, I still think the media hype, fear and high blood pressure is much worse than the hornet will ever be, to us or bees.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CAQLs3slhIm/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link (https://www.instagram.com/p/CAQLs3slhIm/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link)
Yes, that is a European hornet. And I totally agree with you. It's shameful, especially in these uncertain times, how the media is willing to make money off of people's fear. Have you seen some of the tabloid headlines about the so-called "Murder Hornets" lately? Truly sickening.
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Yep. Went to work recently and two people asked me about them. They were concerned about my bees. I think putting a few billion cameras and microphones (mobile phones) in the hands of 2-3 billion people and connecting them all has had a negative affect on news being reported responsibly. If you report the truth, you have 1000s of other stories/sources vying for people's attention. If you make up some ridiculous headline like "murder hornets" then you get your 15 minutes of fame. This is fundamentally flawed.
Also, I edited my post with correction to European. Thanks
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Yes JoJo, I used to live in Murfreesboro, and the photos I have of a queen European Hornet that made a nest in my swarm trap is from there. Nope, there are no established colonies of Giant Asian Hornets in the Western Hemisphere.
Asian Hornets (Which are not the same as Giant Asian Hornets) are established in Western Europe, and creating havoc over there, and the German Yellowjacket has invaded the Northeastern USA, and will hunt honeybee larvae. The native Yellowjackets do not hunt honeybees.
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Anyone else seen the latest fear monger headline regarding this topic, courtesy of the Seattle Times: "'Murder hornets" invading US are about to enter "slaughter phase'". So many yellow and black striped insects will pay the price for this. :angry:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/murder-hornets-invading-u-s-are-about-to-enter-slaughter-phase/
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The media will sensationalize anything and everything to improve viewership and subscribers today...it's pathetic....
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Maybe folks will remember the phrase (Track it don?t wack it) and things will turn out ok? I am asking; If they have the technology of a tracking device capable of tracking this creature, shouldn?t they have a sound method of attachment of this device? 🤷🏻♂️
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Welp, it's official...
"Washington state bug hunters find first ever Asian giant 'murder hornets' nest in US"
They caught a few in traps and placed tracking devices on them to aid in locating the nest...in Washington.
https://www.foxnews.com/science/washington-state-bug-hunters-find-first-ever-asian-giant-murder-hornets-nest-in-us
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Welp, it's official...
"Washington state bug hunters find first ever Asian giant 'murder hornets' nest in US"
They caught a few in traps and placed tracking devices on them to aid in locating the nest...in Washington.
https://www.foxnews.com/science/washington-state-bug-hunters-find-first-ever-asian-giant-murder-hornets-nest-in-us
Thanks for posting this.....
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The nest has been removed.
https://www.oregonlive.com/environment/2020/10/7-photos-show-how-researchers-vacuumed-out-murder-hornet-nest-in-washington-state-what-they-found.html?fbclid=IwAR0U8ZMdFpkBnTsXEcjwVsNNpshGUO9_xyLavuRMRTMJNrHWYGN9pvFiQzA
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The nest has been removed.
https://www.oregonlive.com/environment/2020/10/7-photos-show-how-researchers-vacuumed-out-murder-hornet-nest-in-washington-state-what-they-found.html?fbclid=IwAR0U8ZMdFpkBnTsXEcjwVsNNpshGUO9_xyLavuRMRTMJNrHWYGN9pvFiQzA
Wow! There were many hornets in that canister! I hope that was the only nest?
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Here is a stinger to avoid. European hornet I caught in my apiary. The honey bee is for size comparison.
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What a face.
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What a face.
A face only a mother could love... ;)