Which hive is the pissy one?

[van from Arkansas]

HP, your an honest fella, that is to warn neighbors.  That might work in Canada but not in USA.  If 2Sox warns his neighbor, that if providing info.  Information can be a liability in the USA.  If his neighbor get stung and goes to the hospital, 2Sox is negligent by admitting and neglecting mean bees and not destroying the bees.  Otherwise 2Sox has liability but not negligent.

Example, in the US, Mc Donald?s got sued for 14 million over a hot cup of coffee.  The issue was negligent because Mc Donald?s knew the coffee was scolding.  Otherwise if McDonald?s did not realize the coffee was scolding, the liability would have been only $100 of dollars.  Add the word negligent and liability goes from hundreds to millions. Every one is the US can occur liabilities, but not negligent liability.  Admitting and doing nothing to protect concurs negligence.  In Canada I do not think a company can get sued over a cup of hot coffee?  Is this correct?  In the USA, 14 million$ for a cup of hot coffee is the coffee is to hot.

Slip on a unknown banana peel and no big deal.  If you know the banana peel is on your floor and do nothing as a person slips, you are screwed.

[TheHoneyPump]

Interesting.  Here there is nothing negligent about having a plan (one that will be found reasonable by experts), comminicating the plan to persons affected, and following the plan.

I suppose south of the 49th, the plan has to be ......

[Acebird]

Larger colonies are not more pissy.

Maybe not but they are more defensive.  They have a lot more older bees that are expendable.

[Bob Wilson]

Hey! That's me, Larry, my brother Daryl, and my other brother, Daryl.

[2Sox]

OK sounds in good hands.  It will all work out.
 --- I have made a couple revisions, clarifications and expansion, to the comments above.

Depending on what your relations are with your neighbours, it may be a good idea to advise them that you are observant and that you are aware of a potential problem and tell them what your plan is.  That could go a long way towards preventing people problems.

Thank you for that revision. Very useful.

My neighbors have already gotten stung so things are a little dodgy. The circumstances were not unusual: A kid picked up a ball with a bee on it.  Back door light was on at night and a few bees were hovering around. This happened the week of Formic Pro treatment. I haven?t heard of it, or personally experienced it, but maybe the treatment made the bees a little pissy. I don?t know how they reacted but somehow the bees got into the house and the husband and wife got stung. The only two times in all these years. They are basically pretty accepting and decent people but they don?t speak English (although family members do) so I just try to keep out of their way.

[BeeMaster2]

Formic acid does tend to make the bees aggressive. Try switching to oxalic acid. They never seem to mind except for the bees returning when the smoke is coming out of the entrance. They stop because it does not smell like their hive.
Jim Altmiller
 

[Ben Framed]

2Sox, how did this work out? Did the hive calm or did you have to take action?

[2Sox]

OK sounds in good hands.  It will all work out.
 --- I have made a couple revisions, clarifications and expansion, to the comments above.

Depending on what your relations are with your neighbours, it may be a good idea to advise them that you are observant and that you are aware of a potential problem and tell them what your plan is.  That could go a long way towards preventing people problems.

Went back and re-read the thread. Thanks again, for all your help.

[Ben Framed]

2Sox, how did this work out? Did the hive calm or did you have to take action?

[Acebird]

I am not a good enough bee keeper to deal with a pissy hive.  It makes it tough when you have to tend to other hives in the same area.  Having other hives I would be inclined to get rid of it in some fashion.

[Ben Framed]

I am not a good enough bee keeper to deal with a pissy hive.  It makes it tough when you have to tend to other hives in the same area.  Having other hives I would be inclined to get rid of it in some fashion.

I agree Brian. I would not enjoy a mean hive either. That is part of the reason I ask 2Sox how his situation worked out. Several of us put a lot of thought with hope of helping him solve this problem he faced last year. HP told him to give it a few days and some agreed. It is still a mystery as to the results of the Avenue 2Sox finally had to take. A good learning experience for each of us. (If we knew) lol 😊

[2Sox]

This hive never did work out.  I was not able to relocate it and time was a factor.  I was extremely reluctant to say this to you all; it goes so much against what I believe. But I treated it like that dog, Julie, I previously wrote about.  I euthanized the colony. I vacuumed all the bees and froze them along with the comb.

[2Sox]

This hive never did work out.  I was not able to relocate it and time was a factor.  I was extremely reluctant to say this to you all; it goes so much against what I believe. But I treated it like that dog, Julie, I previously wrote about.  I euthanized the colony. I vacuumed all the bees and froze them along with the comb.

I?m sure you can imagine how much I wrestled with this decision. I?m very grateful for all the time and thought you all put into trying to help me figure this out - and I considered your suggestions seriously - but because of the position I was in, none of those solutions was possible. I felt ashamed and that?s why I never followed up with what I?m writing here.  But I see now that you all deserve to know.

I looked up euthanizing honeybees on the Internet and I found a beek who used a soap solution. It is on YouTube. It was very fast but that would make it impossible to reuse the resources of the hive. That?s why I chose the method I did.

[Ben Framed]

That?s just the way it goes sometimes 2Sox. You did what had to be done... ✔️

Honestly I hate to admit it but I use to be reluctant to pinch a failing queen. As you we have to do what we need to do though reluctantly.

Thanks for the update!

[LawyerRick]

HP, your an honest fella, that is to warn neighbors.  That might work in Canada but not in USA.  If 2Sox warns his neighbor, that if providing info.  Information can be a liability in the USA.  If his neighbor get stung and goes to the hospital, 2Sox is negligent by admitting and neglecting mean bees and not destroying the bees.  Otherwise 2Sox has liability but not negligent.

Example, in the US, Mc Donald?s got sued for 14 million over a hot cup of coffee.  The issue was negligent because Mc Donald?s knew the coffee was scolding.  Otherwise if McDonald?s did not realize the coffee was scolding, the liability would have been only $100 of dollars.  Add the word negligent and liability goes from hundreds to millions. Every one is the US can occur liabilities, but not negligent liability.  Admitting and doing nothing to protect concurs negligence.  In Canada I do not think a company can get sued over a cup of hot coffee?  Is this correct?  In the USA, 14 million$ for a cup of hot coffee is the coffee is to hot.

Slip on a unknown banana peel and no big deal.  If you know the banana peel is on your floor and do nothing as a person slips, you are screwed.

The franchise had been cited on several occasions by the local health department for having coffee at the boiling point & not doing anything about it.  The lady who was injured had 10 surgeries on her groin to repair the damage caused by the burns.  In the end, the case was settled for less than $500k with most going to reimburse her insurance company for medical/surgery expenses.  Having been an attorney for over 40 years, I've seen the law drastically change to limit injured person's financial recovery over the last 20 years, making it nearly impossible for any frivolous cases to stay in court, much less succeed. 

[guitarstitch]

Larger colonies are not more pissy.

Maybe not but they are more defensive.  They have a lot more older bees that are expendable.

Defensive vs. Pissy is just playing semantics.  We all should be aware that honey bees are never aggressive, just sometimes more prominently defensive.

With that in mind, my experiences have shown large colonies to be more defensive/pissy.  Not just more airborne bees, but actually stinging my suit or me if I get to close.  Splits have calmed pissy hives right down to the point that I can work them without gear again.  In no way do I intend to discredit HP's commentary, but it certainly is not reflective of my own experiences.

[Acebird]

An Africanized hive is aggressive.  It can kill an animal without provocation.

[Ben Framed]

An Africanized hive is aggressive.  It can kill an animal without provocation.

I agree Brian in this case. A bit overly defensive can be called aggressive. I don?t think guitarstitch had that consideration in mind? But maybe so?

[Ben Framed]

Cao, Honeypump and Van, I?ve been thinking about your suggestion about splitting that hive into nucs.  Why would doing that calm them down?  I would think pissy is as pissy does.  If they were bad girls as a big hive, would?t they behave the same way as smaller ones, once the guard bees were drafted?

I would have definitely tried this if 1) I had the room. I am completely full up. I?ve had to turn down calls.  2) If I had the luxury of time to see if it worked out. I?ve got neighbors kids playing ball and setting up a play tent 25-30 feet away in the yard in back of my house. Chain link fence is all that separates us.

2Sox I have been interested in the idea of raising more queens. After some studying, the consensus seems to be the genetics of drones may determine the 'attitude' of the bees. Buying proven gentle stock queens for your new nucs would have been a plus to a gentler bee. Or if you would have made splits, allowing each to make their own queens, most likely your virgins would have mated with a gentler temperamental strain of drones? Eventually allowing these new splits with new queens to produce a gentler strain of bee. I would not want any drones from a mean hive reproducing. There may have been other reasons as well that the three above recommended making splits. 

[TheHoneyPump]

Imho, it is as you figure it
- pissy is as pissy does

Nucing mean genetics makes more mean genetics. The only difference is there are 5-50 bees bouncing off the veil when inspecting each nuc rather than 500-5000 bouncing off the veil when inspecting a full size hive of pissy misfits. The only good of nucing it is that doing so can make it possible to use the bees and resources in smaller annoying units. They are still pissy bees, just fewer to be pestered by at a time.  Of course if all the nucs are in the same location, next to each other, then nothing has been accomplished - all the bees are still there to get you.
It is best to try to notice such behaviours while the colony is still small and unceremoniously hivetool mash that queen along with any drone brood  she had on the go. Ie requeen when you experience persistent veil bombers or being chased around without provocation; (assuming there is nothing disturbing the hive).
After intro of a new queen, it will take a month or more for the hive transformation to be complete. That being the time it takes until all of the brood and bees with with the mean genetics to mature and die off. The change in pheromone of a new gentler queen does have some immediate effect, but the actual problem, the genetics, is not gone until those bees carrying it are gone.
In an urban setting, time is not on the beekeepers side. The problem hive must be moved or euthanized. Just like the problem dog. 
Imho, hope that helps!