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Author Topic: Which hive is the pissy one?  (Read 6869 times)

Offline 2Sox

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Which hive is the pissy one?
« on: May 03, 2020, 05:21:50 pm »
I could put this one as a riddle but it is a real question.

Swarm season absolutely EXPLODED here. Every one of my beekeeper friends have been called daily. Some have had two or three in one day. Since last week, I took in 8.  Today is my ninth call.

To the question: All the hives in my yard (9) are all from swarms since last Sunday...except one. This one was overwintered and had normal behavior. Seemed alright coming into spring too.  In the last few days, one of these hives has turned unbearable. I?m suspecting that it is this one that has overwintered and is building nicely.  The evidence points to this one because when I went into it today, there were bees all over me.  And continued to follow me after I was done.

To help me with this process of elimination: Can a hived swarm, no more that a week old, exhibit this kind of behavior?? I have to get rid of this pissy hive fast. The houses here are close to each other and I don?t need anybody getting hurt.  Aside from the fact that my wife can?t even go into the yard to enjoy her garden. Thanks for you input.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline herbhome

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2020, 06:10:14 pm »
In general, defensive behavior increases when the colony is established and has something to defend. I believe your instincts are correct and the overwintered hive is to blame.  :smile:
Neill

Offline cao

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2020, 12:55:37 am »
You put eight swarms in the same yard with an established hive, all within a week.  I would get pissy to if I had eight neighbors move in that nothing to eat and didn't know where the store was.  I'm sure your established hive is, at a minimum, getting harassed some by the swarms.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2020, 08:52:53 am »
I would suspect new hives with unknown origins causing the problems.
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2020, 11:35:15 am »
2Sox Congratulations on the catching!
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2020, 12:11:40 pm »
Wow.  VERY interesting answers.  Thanks for the congrats, Ben. Did some more investigating with that suspect hive. Went into them and they were all over me - even with an abundance of smoke before opening and during inspection. These are VERY bad girls.

Regarding the hived swarms: They are very gentle. Checking briefly on one or two a day and they are sweet as can be. 

What I?m scratching my head about is why this bad hive is so bad. It was the same queen going into winter as came out in spring. (??)
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2020, 12:37:20 pm »
Cao comment above.  x2
  - after a week they should all settle down.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2020, 05:00:34 pm »
2Sox, a mean hive needs to be dealt with immediately if your wife is threatened.  That is crossing a line to me: bees threatening family members or neighbors.  Not tolerated for any reason or justification such as WELL A COON WAS PESTERING AT NIGHT.  Threaten my family, my wife, and oh boy, something, that is queen, is gonna give quickly.

I would split into small nucs and requeen.  Small nucs are easier to handle than one huge hive to me.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 05:16:51 pm by van from Arkansas »
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2020, 06:39:59 pm »
2Sox, a mean hive needs to be dealt with immediately if your wife is threatened.  That is crossing a line to me: bees threatening family members or neighbors.  Not tolerated for any reason or justification such as WELL A COON WAS PESTERING AT NIGHT.  Threaten my family, my wife, and oh boy, something, that is queen, is gonna give quickly.

I would split into small nucs and requeen.  Small nucs are easier to handle than one huge hive to me.

Thank you. The safety of others is foremost.  And your suggestion is really good and very logical one.  But it seems to me that even with smaller nucs, we?ll still be plagued by pissy bees until the genetics of the original hive is cleared with the new queen?s offspring. Thoughts?

"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2020, 06:50:41 pm »
Cao and Honeypump, thanks for your input on this.  It?s food for thought.  But from my own experience, this has never happened. ALL my bees come from swarms and cutouts and have all been put in the same yard over the years. There is always a first time, I guess, but what I describe has never happened - and that?s why this scenario you both describe is hard to compute. I look down at the bee yard from my window and the scene is as peaceful as can be.

The sad thing is that I?ve asked everyone I know and the timing is really bad - no one is able to take it off my hands.

It reminds me of Julie, a beautiful pit bull we rescued some years ago. She bit everyone who came into the house if we didn?t watch her. She didn?t bite to hurt but is was scary.  I didn?t have the stomach to put her down. We kept her for three years. Another family took her for a year but she was returned to us for the same reason. Dogs have histories before they are adopted and it became clear that she couldn?t live in a world with people. The next day I brought her right to the vet and said goodbye. That dog taught me a hard lesson.

Maybe some hives need to be thought of the same way. 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 07:47:40 pm by 2Sox »
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline Bob Wilson

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2020, 07:00:06 pm »
I just stay out of the hives for a week. There is no need to go into them. That itself may solve the problem as they settle down, find forage and get busy about their own business. They will begin ignoring you again.
Then if you find in another week or so, that they are still mean, requeen, split into nuts, or close it up one morning and give it to a seasoned beek. You have found so many free swarms, give it to someone who knows what to do with it.

Offline cao

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2020, 10:27:14 pm »
I usually give my hives a warning with a mark of "pissy" in the tape I have on the back of the hive.  If they still that way the next inspection they are given another box for room and to let the bees spread out some.  Cause the next time if things haven't changed, that hive is going to be "divided and conquered".  It will be split as much as it is necessary to "break their will".  Because at some point they will decide that they don't have the extra guard bees to waste on kamikaze runs.  I do recommend giving them some time but then do what you have to.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2020, 10:55:59 pm »
Stick with HPs plan. Give it a chance. If that don't work, requeen or just for fun, and may be a little off the wall. Put on a full vented suit, and pull up a chair closely to their entrance. Read a book and give them every opportunity to get it out of their system.  Who knows?   :wink: 
If that don't work requeen them and pinch her:  Kind of like squashing one of those mean red wasp! lol
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2020, 11:19:55 pm »
Cao and Honeypump, thanks for your input on this.  It?s food for thought.  But from my own experience, this has never happened. ALL my bees come from swarms and cutouts and have all been put in the same yard over the years. There is always a first time, I guess, but what I describe has never happened - and that?s why this scenario you both describe is hard to compute. I look down at the bee yard from my window and the scene is as peaceful as can be.

The sad thing is that I?ve asked everyone I know and the timing is really bad - no one is able to take it off my hands.

It reminds me of Julie, a beautiful pit bull we rescued some years ago. She bit everyone who came into the house if we didn?t watch her. She didn?t bite to hurt but is was scary.  I didn?t have the stomach to put her down. We kept her for three years. Another family took her for a year but she was returned to us for the same reason. Dogs have histories before they are adopted and it became clear that she couldn?t live in a world with people. The next day I brought her right to the vet and said goodbye. That dog taught me a hard lesson.

Maybe some hives need to be thought of the same way.

Very kind of you to rescue a dog, especially a bull which most would reject.  We have a rescue pup, name Gracie.  She has turned out to be a doll, part of the family.  Ok, back to bees.

The bees being placed in smaller nucs will settle down some.  Be sure and move from the original location.  Leave no hive at the original location except maybe  for an empty box which make the bees think the hive moved on.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2020, 11:20:51 pm »
Thanks so much for you advice, guys. A lot to think about.  We?ll see how it turns out.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2020, 11:23:45 am »
Cao, Honeypump and Van, I?ve been thinking about your suggestion about splitting that hive into nucs.  Why would doing that calm them down?  I would think pissy is as pissy does.  If they were bad girls as a big hive, would?t they behave the same way as smaller ones, once the guard bees were drafted?

I would have definitely tried this if 1) I had the room. I am completely full up. I?ve had to turn down calls.  2) If I had the luxury of time to see if it worked out. I?ve got neighbors kids playing ball and setting up a play tent 25-30 feet away in the yard in back of my house. Chain link fence is all that separates us.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline guitarstitch

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2020, 08:02:29 am »
Cao, Honeypump and Van, I?ve been thinking about your suggestion about splitting that hive into nucs.  Why would doing that calm them down?  I would think pissy is as pissy does.  If they were bad girls as a big hive, would?t they behave the same way as smaller ones, once the guard bees were drafted?

I would have definitely tried this if 1) I had the room. I am completely full up. I?ve had to turn down calls.  2) If I had the luxury of time to see if it worked out. I?ve got neighbors kids playing ball and setting up a play tent 25-30 feet away in the yard in back of my house. Chain link fence is all that separates us.

Larger colonies tend to be more pissy in general.  That's not a 100% given.  I theorize that the more bees in a colony, the stronger the alarm pheromone response.  They also have more resources to protect, and do so with more aggression.
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2020, 02:09:50 pm »
Larger colonies are not more pissy.  The only thing that makes a hive pissy are: 
1. Genetics. 
2. Irritants

Deal with genetics by requeening from a known source.

Deal with irritants by; 
   - giving time to adjust to major changes or short term disruptions that have been done by the beekeeper or by the environment
   - beeing observant of recurring pests and conditions around the hive that affects them, and take action to eliminate/minimize those irritants.  Those pests/conditions may be IN the hive or the environment around the hive.

Changes were made to the environment of the existing hive and to the colonies that were brought in.  In this case, the fix is time.  1 week should do it..  If you have neighbours and kids and wife garden so close that time is not possible, then I have to be blunt and up front to say that you should not have any hives in that location, not even one. Even the best calm hive may have a short flare periodically.  If that cannot be tolerated then the solution is no bees at all.

PS: Young bees are much more gentle.  It is the old tired worn out bees that can get pissy ... again only if genetically disposed or irritants are present.  Keep this in mind for when a "new" calm hive becomes mean 2 weeks later.  The reason splits and cut-downs can work is that is usually done with nurse bees and capped brood = young bees.  The original hive location where the old bees return too may continue to be knarly until those die off.  The cut-downs may also become just as pissy 2 weeks later as their bees age as well.

PS2:  Also know the difference between bees flying around as being defensive/aggressive vs bees being disoriented and seeking out their new environment.  When I move a beeyard of multiple hives to a new location, it is utter chaos for about 4 days.  Bees everywhere zipping in every direction as they get oriented, searching, and finding where the new forage is. During this time it can be un-nerving standing in the middle of the yard.  Bees that run into you full speed may instinctively sting. I will not enter the yard without a suit.  Go back 7-10 days later and the yard of millions of bees is hard at work, flight is orderly, and they could care less that I am there.  I will walk in shorts and t-shirt and pop a few lids with no concerns.

So, give them some time and see what happens.  After giving them a reasonable amount of time (7-10), then take whatever action is necessary if it is still a problem.

Hope that helps!


« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 02:36:46 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2020, 02:36:34 pm »
Larger colonies are not more pissy.  The only thing that makes a hive pissy are: 
1. Genetics. 
2. Irritants

Deal with genetics by requeening from a known source.

Deal with irritants by; 
   - giving time to adjust to major changes or short term disruptions that have been done by the beekeeper or by the environment
   - beeing observant of pests and conditions around the hive that affects them, and take action to eliminate/minimize those irritants.

Changes were made to the environment of the existing hive and to the colonies that were brought in.  In this case, the fix is time.  1 week should do it..  If you have neighbours and kids and wife garden so close that time is not possible, then I have to be blunt and up front to say that you should not have any hives in that location, not even one. Even the best calm hive may have a short flare periodically.  If that cannot be tolerated then the solution is no bees at all.

PS: Young bees are much more gentle.  It is the old tired worn out bees that can get pissy ... again only if genetically disposed or irritants are present.  Keep this in mind for when a "new" calm hive becomes mean 2 weeks later.  The reason splits and cut-downs can work is that is usually done with nurse bees and capped brood = young bees.  The original hive location where the old bees return too may continue to be knarly until those die off.  The cut-downs may also become just as pissy 2 weeks later as their bees age as well.

Hope that helps!

Your reply is MUCH appreciated and makes a good deal of sense. And your viewpoint about having no bees in my home environment is understandable - especially without seeing pictures.  Have had bees here for 14 years. Top number at any one time has been about 10. No issues. When I had a pissy hive from a cutout, it never came home to my yard; always was able to place it. Had a Sas queen that was BAD; awful offspring. (You might recall my post on that)  Gave that hive away immediately. This situation now is unique - especially with COVID.  The 4 kids from the family next door are using the 10 car lot behind my house as their playground. That would NOT happen except for the lockdown. (Here in New York things are very strict and we here are very grateful to Cuomo for his leadership on this.) So I?m particularly vigilant.

I guess I?ll wait and see how it goes with time.  Or if a friend turns up with space.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Which hive is the pissy one?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2020, 02:39:39 pm »
OK sounds in good hands.  It will all work out.
 --- I have made a couple revisions, clarifications and expansion, to the comments above.

Depending on what your relations are with your neighbours, it may be a good idea to advise them that you are observant and that you are aware of a potential problem and tell them what your plan is.  That could go a long way towards preventing people problems.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 02:51:24 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.