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Author Topic: I learned something bee by accident.  (Read 1818 times)

Offline Ben Framed

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I learned something bee by accident.
« on: March 12, 2021, 10:36:39 pm »
I learned something new by accident.  I left several hives with a box with empty combs on top past FALL. For a total of 3 deeps. Last year I lost a lot of, valuable to me, extra stored comb to wax moths. So I decided last fall I would take the chance of placing much of the extra comb above the two 10 deep boxes of winter bee hives where the bees could protect comb when wax moths started this spring. After all it does not usually get down past the lower 20?s here and that is usually for a short time.

Here is what I learned.  I learned even though there was a deep box of empty comb on top of each of these hives leaving extra space for bees to heat, not one froze out.  Even though the temperature got down to 0 with the unexpected arctic blast a few weeks ago. The empty comb and space above the bees did not detour them any. I had feared with the extra space above then they would probably perish during the unusual bitter cold. Not one hive was insulated. All entrances were open, no reducers. In fact, to my pleasant surprise they are thriving!

Not only that, they are already working the third empty boxes and working them hard. I did not expect this so soon in my zone 7.

Conclusion:  I stumbled on the right thing in every way including possible swarm prevention with the extra space already provided along with drawn comb even though it was "too early" to normally add extra boxes of comb as I have understood it in the past. Happy!!

One other thing of concern, when I went into these hives, I did find several mature SHB in every hive. Jim if you read this please remind me once again when I can expect to start seeing SHB reproducing.

Any thoughts are welcome.

PS I did lose one hive to starvation. Felt bad about it too.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 11:48:42 pm by Ben Framed »
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: I learned something bee by accident.
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2021, 04:29:16 am »
SHB's survive where there is space for them to get away from the bees.

Did the bees winter in the top box or stay clustered in the bottom?
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: I learned something bee by accident.
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2021, 08:36:39 am »
Quote from: Oldbeavo on March 13, 2021, 04:29:16 am
SHB's survive where there is space for them to get away from the bees.

Did the bees winter in the top box or stay clustered in the bottom?



The bees stayed clustered in the bottom boxes so did the SHB best I could tell. When I said temperature was 0 that was f. -17.7c  In that type weather the SHB cluster in with the bees. I learned this from Cao and others.



Quote from: Ben Framed on January 27, 2021, 05:33:05 pm
Quote from: cao on January 27, 2021, 05:16:15 pm
I don't know about mites but shbs will just move to the center of the cluster when it gets cold and only die after the bees die and stop producing heat.  I have seen several deadouts with a hardball size area in the middle of the cluster that has each cell of the comb packed full of shbs.


In that case the beetles may have been deep inside. Thanks Cao. I will put a flat top on. then on the next warm day check  and see if there are beetles on top of this hive.  Good post cao, thanks.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 09:26:37 am by Ben Framed »
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: I learned something bee by accident.
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2021, 09:12:47 am »
Also, the hive that starved, starved because this one hive I made the mistake of putting the mountain camp shim on top of the empty box and empty combs. The bees starved because they did not break cluster during the -17c weather and come up to get mountain camp. All the others had mountain camp shims between the bee boxes and the empty boxes. Thus the difference in thriving and not surviving. So I guess we can chalk this up to another mistake not to make.😊
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online The15thMember

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Re: I learned something bee by accident.
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2021, 01:56:01 pm »
Very interesting, Phillip.  Did these hives use up more food keeping warm in a larger cavity? 
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: I learned something bee by accident.
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2021, 02:25:37 pm »
Actually I did something very different this fall. I had a certain amount of honey in each hive. I usually load them down with sugar water in the Fall. I did not past fall. Instead I kept a close eye on them checking their weight periodically. In late January by their weight, it was time to help them out. That is when I added mountain camp my first time seriously doing so. I am very happy with the method, the only problem is I should?ve put the shim between the empty box and the two big boxes is I did with all others. I am almost positive had I done so this hive would  not have starved. Strictly my fault. But in fairness to myself I never anticipated the arctic blast which hit our part of the south, very uncommon and lasted for several days,very rare. Had this not have happened they still might have survived as a normal winter in my area they are capable of breaking cluster most of the time




                                                                                                                                                                                .
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 03:56:44 am by Ben Framed »
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline FatherMichael

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Re: I learned something bee by accident.
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2021, 03:12:14 pm »
What do you mean by shims, Phillip, as in mountain camp shim?

I put candy and then straight sugar on top of parchment paper directly over the cluster.

Every time I checked they looked great.
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41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: I learned something bee by accident.
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2021, 03:34:34 pm »
Quote from: FatherMichael on March 13, 2021, 03:12:14 pm
What do you mean by shims, Phillip, as in mountain camp shim?

I put candy and then straight sugar on top of parchment paper directly over the cluster.

Every time I checked they looked great.

I used the table saw and cut down some boxes to about 2 1/2 wide. This is what I call shins. Actually it is used to create a hollow space between the top of frames to the top itself to place sugar. I love this method and am happy except for the one mistake.
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline FatherMichael

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Re: I learned something bee by accident.
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2021, 04:25:31 pm »
Quote from: Ben Framed on March 13, 2021, 03:34:34 pm
Quote from: FatherMichael on March 13, 2021, 03:12:14 pm
What do you mean by shims, Phillip, as in mountain camp shim?

I put candy and then straight sugar on top of parchment paper directly over the cluster.

Every time I checked they looked great.

I used the table saw and cut down some boxes to about 2 1/2 wide. This is what I call shins. Actually it is used to create a hollow space between the top of frames to the top itself to place sugar. I love this method and am happy except for the one mistake.

Ah, that makes sense.

I put a feed bag "inner cover" over the candy/sugar, then a regular medium super on that (the feed bag material stick out on the sides), and filled in around and on top with bubble wrap and dry leaves.

Next winter I'll probably make some blankets out of a bag of ghost poo.

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41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: I learned something bee by accident.
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2021, 03:05:54 am »
Just some added thought on the mountain camp method. And I agree!


Quote from: jvalentour on September 04, 2019, 11:53:27 pm
So Phillip.
Let me mess things a little bit more...
It doesn't matter what the weight is if you feed in the winter. 
(They need to have numbers).
If you feed Mountain Camp style the bees will survive just fine. 
You need to decide if you want bees dependent on intervention or not.
I have always felt scales are not necessary.  Look at your hives and decide.
Do they have stores or not?
Feed or not?
Nucs will live on sugar at the top of the hive all winter as long as you supply the food.  (And keep them dry).
Been bee keeping 7 years, yet to purchase scales.   
J
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: I learned something bee by accident.
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2021, 01:25:13 pm »
Hi Mr. Ben.

You have an interesting observation.  I have one concern:  wax moths fly at cooler temps than bees.  So the concern is moths fly into a hive with excess, unguarded space and lay eggs in the wax. This is the reason beeks don?t like excess space during winter.

However, in your case a positive result incurred.  So this begs the question: what is the actual low temperatures that wax moth fly?  Anybody know, I do not.  Member, your needed here!
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Online The15thMember

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Re: I learned something bee by accident.
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2021, 01:52:42 pm »
Quote from: van from Arkansas on March 15, 2021, 01:25:13 pm
Hi Mr. Ben.

You have an interesting observation.  I have one concern:  wax moths fly at cooler temps than bees.  So the concern is moths fly into a hive with excess, unguarded space and lay eggs in the wax. This is the reason beeks don?t like excess space during winter.

However, in your case a positive result incurred.  So this begs the question: what is the actual low temperatures that wax moth fly?  Anybody know, I do not.  Member, your needed here!
I found this on Honey Bee Suite: "Contrary to popular hearsay, freezing will kill all life stages of both the greater wax moth (Galleria mellonella) and the lesser wax moth (Achroia grisella).

To kill the moths, you must monitor both time and temperature. For example, the Mid-Altantic Apiculture Research and Extension Consortium (MAAREC) publishes the following guidelines to kill both species of wax moth:

20 degrees F for 4.5 hours or

5 degrees F for 2 hours."

Just a guesstimate from those numbers, but I'd think that at around 32 F for 12-24 hours would probably do it too.  Above freezing it's difficult to say.  I couldn't seem to find anything on that.  I don't know, but I can't see adult moths flying outside the hives in any temps we'd call cold.  Unless they have some way to heat themselves up (like bumble bees for example) I don't know how they'd be able to operate in cold temps since they are cold blooded.  The issue is that the bees keep at least their area of the hive warm, so if there are any wax moths eggs, larva, or adults that survive near the cluster, when it warms up they could easily move up into the empty boxes.  I wonder if the crazy cold snap that you had, Phillip, contributed to keeping the wax moth numbers down. 

 
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I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: I learned something bee by accident.
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2021, 05:57:09 pm »
I really don?t know. All these hives were strong going into winter so I assume the bees took good care of the wax that was in their care until the cold came. Not one hive had any wax moth problem when I checked them. Also the bees are now working the excess frames of wax coming out of winter. No swarm cells found. So far so good.Unlike the season before when I placed a few boxes of empty comb stacked up with no access to it. And was overcome with wax moths when I was ready to use it I was shocked  I did not treat the comb as I remembered Mr Vans Pearl of his stored wax and treatment method and problems associated and killing bees. My not treating was a mistake that time. I did not want to treat this time either so I tried this method. As I said , so far so good.  All thoughts are welcome. I am learning as I go and this may be a fluke?
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline cao

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Re: I learned something bee by accident.
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2021, 06:17:22 pm »
How dark was the comb?  I have noticed that the wax moths prefer the darker brood comb to the clean never had brood in it honey comb.  I think that they use the bees cocoons for theirs.  I have seen a dark comb frame covered with wax moth webbing and the frame next to it not touched(it was light honeycomb).  I have also noticed that it usually takes a couple of weeks after the weather warms for the wax moths to be a problem.  A quick internet search says optimal reproduction temperature for wax moth reproduction is 28-30 degrees C (82-86 degrees F).  So that makes it the first part of April around here before they become a problem.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: I learned something bee by accident.
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2021, 07:03:30 pm »
That is an interesting observation and thought about the wax moth and comb cao. Mine are varying in color. Thanks for the temperature heads up. So far it hasn't been consistent 80's here yet. I am hopeful by that time, the flow will be coming in and they will use use this comb for honey storage? They are all over it even now. And by then they should be bubbling with new bees?
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
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