Almost Dead Hive

[The15thMember]

It was approaching 60F today and yesterday, and I noticed that all of my hives were flying except one, so I decided to pop the top and take a look.  This hive was in 2 mediums, and the top box was completely empty of bees and full of stores, and in the bottom box was only about a handful of live bees with the queen and the most of the rest of cluster dead on the bottom board.  There were about fist-sized sections of bees dead with their heads in cells like they were starving, but the cluster wasn't separated from stores.  I put the remaining live bees in another box on a clean bottom board and gave them their stores before cleaning out the box of dead bees.  I couldn't get any pictures of the combs or live bees because it was chilly and I was trying to work quickly, but here are some pictures of the dead bees.  I can get some pictures of the other combs tomorrow if you think they'll help.  Any ideas what happened here?   


 

[Ben Framed]

Member with the top box full of stores I would not think a healthy hive would have starved. No Q/E right? Close up pictures of the combs tomorrow for more clues would be good. By the way you post really good and clear pictures. Good job.

[BeeMaster2]

Member,
It sounds like you still hav a fair size cluster of bees alive. If so I would not bother this hive until spring. Right now our bees are in build up mode due to the maple bloom. And they hav a good chance of making it through to spring.
You probably had a small cluster of bees get separated from the main cluster and they froze during the last cold snap. I have a small cutout hive in my backyard that is making it through so far.
Jim Altmiller

[BeeMaster2]

Being as you are in NC, one thing that might help this hive is to put it above your other hive. If you are using screen tops, put the box and lid right on top of the screen top without disturbing either hive. Be sure they have an opening.
Jim Altmiller

[Acebird]

Does not look like starvation.  Did they get wet?

[The15thMember]

Member with the top box full of stores I would not think a healthy hive would have starved. No Q/E right? Close up pictures of the combs tomorrow for more clues would be good. By the way you post really good and clear pictures. Good job.

No, I don't use queen excluders at all.  I'll definitely get some comb pictures today.

Does not look like starvation.  Did they get wet?

No, they were quite dry, and their moisture quilt was only barely damp.

You probably had a small cluster of bees get separated from the main cluster and they froze during the last cold snap.

I don't think so Jim.  The bees on the bottom board were more or less right under the live bees and a sizeable chunk of the cluster was dead and suspended between the combs right with the live bees. 

Being as you are in NC, one thing that might help this hive is to put it above your other hive. If you are using screen tops, put the box and lid right on top of the screen top without disturbing either hive. Be sure they have an opening.
Jim Altmiller

I love this idea, because I'm very concerned about them keeping themselves warm, since I don't have any nucs to put them in (I really need to make some follower boards this year).  I do use screen tops, but they are beveled for ventilation, so I can't put a box on top of one and have it seal.  I use moisture quilts in the winter which I make by putting #8 hardware cloth halfway up in a shallow so I have room to insert some sugar if I need to.  What if I took an empty moisture quilt, opened up one ventilation hole for an entrance, stopped up the rest of the vent holes, and set that on top of a strong hive, then put this box of bees on top of that, and top with moisture quilt and lid.  Does that sound right?  They won't fight through the single layer of mesh, will they?   

[Brian MCquilkin]

It was approaching 60F today and yesterday

  Good news is that your temps are above freezing and the remaining bees should bounce back. As for why the bees died possible moisture or viruses from mites. Depending on the remaining cluster size you might want to reduce them down to a single box or a nuc.

[The15thMember]

Here are some picture of the comb that the bees were on.  I realized that all the combs they were on had mostly pollen on them, but there was some honey on one as well and they had honey right above their heads, so it shouldn't have been an issue with food.  It seems a little strange to me that they were on top of pollen instead of honey though.  Today there are some slowly moving bees crawling around on the ground in front of the hive although that could just be some that got caught out in the cold.  I saw some lethargic looking workers in the hive yesterday when I moved it.  A couple were buzzing their wings without hooking them together.  I guess I'm just wondering, since it doesn't seems like starvation or anything environmental, if it is in fact a virus or something else catching.  And if so, I probably shouldn't have them over a healthy hive with nothing but mesh between them.  Thoughts?

[beesnweeds]

This is " JUST A GUESS" but it looks and sounds like Nosema.  The symptoms you describe, starving with food and k wing are not unique to Nosema but it could be a cause.  Nosema effects the mid gut so that the bees cannot properly digest food.  The only way to tell for sure is to mush up the abdomens and look for a high spore count under a microscope.  Its actually pretty easy and you can find instructions to do it properly on university websites.  Or you could send a sample to a bee lab.  I used to check my own samples and once in a great while I would find a high spore count.  I don't it anymore because there isn't a cure for it anyway.  But for commercial beekeepers and breeders the information is more important for production.  Again,  I'm just guessing and could be totally wrong but I think reading and researching Nosema A,C would be of benefit to hobbyists.  As far as combining hives or placing over one another, I'm not a fan.  Unless I'm 100% sure both colonies are healthy.  I rarely find the need to combine hives.

[The15thMember]

This is " JUST A GUESS" but it looks and sounds like Nosema.  The symptoms you describe, starving with food and k wing are not unique to Nosema but it could be a cause.  Nosema effects the mid gut so that the bees cannot properly digest food.  The only way to tell for sure is to mush up the abdomens and look for a high spore count under a microscope.  Its actually pretty easy and you can find instructions to do it properly on university websites.  Or you could send a sample to a bee lab.  I used to check my own samples and once in a great while I would find a high spore count.  I don't it anymore because there isn't a cure for it anyway.  But for commercial beekeepers and breeders the information is more important for production.  Again,  I'm just guessing and could be totally wrong but I think reading and researching Nosema A,C would be of benefit to hobbyists.  As far as combining hives or placing over one another, I'm not a fan.  Unless I'm 100% sure both colonies are healthy.  I rarely find the need to combine hives.

Thanks, beesnweeds, I'll do some looking into that Nosema test.  I do have a microscope, so if it's not too complicated, I'm sure I could manage it.  I'm not going to put them over another hive, at least at the moment.  There's not enough bees in there to warrant a risk to a healthy colony. 

[jimineycricket]

   This might be a place to look for information on doing a spore count for Nosema.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-16-the-quick-squash-method/

[Ben Framed]

Member, I am sorry for you misfortune. Thank you for sharing this with us. This is educational to me. Let us know more as you learn more please. Thanks.

[The15thMember]

I did some looking under the microscope this afternoon.  I used Randy Oliver's instructions for preparing a slide, and it was really easy.  I found all sorts of interesting stuff, which maybe I should post as another thread because it really doesn't have anything to do with this.  I don't think I saw any Nosema, but I'm not 100% sure, having never done this before.  Here's some pictures. 
 
I don't think, based on Randy Oliver's pictures and descriptions, that there is any Nosema here.  I see some little circular things all through these pictures, but I don't think they are distinctly ovoid enough to be Nosema.  I didn't see anything else that would indicate anything abnormal, at least to my untrained eye.  I will still probably not put these bees overtop of a healthy hive, because obviously I couldn't see any viruses or bacteria with my microscope.  So this doesn't mean they aren't sick, but I don't think they have something protozoan or fungal in nature, provided that all those little circles are normal.       

[beesnweeds]

 I don't see any nosema in your photos.  Excellent job checking it out!  The only other possibilities would be a virus that may or may not be caused by mites or queen failure.  Some hives are like the goldfish you win at the fair and its belly up the next morning.  Its hard to determine exactly why they died.

[Acebird]

If you cannot find any evidence of a disease or parasite and the death is sudden I would be looking at how they got wet.  The queen would be protected at all cost and that usually means casualties.

[BeeMaster2]

Member,
What is the power of the microscope you used. It has been many years since I looked for nosema and I think it takes a 400 power microscope to see nosema.
Jim Altmiller

[The15thMember]

I don't see any nosema in your photos.  Excellent job checking it out!  The only other possibilities would be a virus that may or may not be caused by mites or queen failure.  Some hives are like the goldfish you win at the fair and its belly up the next morning.  Its hard to determine exactly why they died.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts, beesnweeds. 

If you cannot find any evidence of a disease or parasite and the death is sudden I would be looking at how they got wet.  The queen would be protected at all cost and that usually means casualties.

I really didn't see any evidence of wetness in there, Ace.   

Member,
What is the power of the microscope you used. It has been many years since I looked for nosema and I think it takes a 400 power microscope to see nosema.
Jim Altmiller

Those pictures are at 400x, Jim.  It's the highest magnification that my microscope can reach. 

[JurassicApiary]

Sorry to hear of this loss, Member.  At least the queen was protected.

I've read of a very similar (near identical) situation.  Dozens of bee butts in the air just as in your situation, right next to capped honey in the other case.  Final determination after ruling out parasites and other factors was that they froze.  I've attached a photo (with credit) of this case.

I believe (just my opinion) this is likely the culprit in your case as well for several reasons:

1) A significant number of bees were actively seeking food to (likely) activate their flight muscles to produce heat as they do to maintain hive temperature.

2) It appears (although we can't be certain) that the bees trying to eat died within a short period of one another--likely a temperature drop caused them to seek food.  In leaving the nest core to retrieve food, they became exposed to cold.  Similarly, the mass of bees on the bottom board were likely at some point the bees on the edge of the bee cluster, exposed to the cold, froze and fell down onto the bb.  A parasite, while possible, wouldn't likely cause such a simultaneous death, but cold temps would.

3) The queen wasn't affected (as she likely would have been if it were a virus or parasite.  They kept her warm at all costs, even sacrificing themselves in the process.

I don't know why they froze and other hives didn't--perhaps just lack of cold tolerance genetics for them...I don't know.

Were any of the brood or emerging bees dead in the their cells as well? 

Photo credit: Ruth Rinehart (Source: Beekeeping Mentor in a Book, by Donald P. Studinski, p. 38, 2014)

[The15thMember]

Sorry to hear of this loss, Member.  At least the queen was protected.

I've read of a very similar (near identical) situation.  Dozens of bee butts in the air just as in your situation, right next to capped honey in the other case.  Final determination after ruling out parasites and other factors was that they froze.  I've attached a photo (with credit) of this case.

I believe (just my opinion) this is likely the culprit in your case as well for several reasons:

1) A significant number of bees were actively seeking food to (likely) activate their flight muscles to produce heat as they do to maintain hive temperature.

2) It appears (although we can't be certain) that the bees trying to eat died within a short period of one another--likely a temperature drop caused them to seek food.  In leaving the nest core to retrieve food, they became exposed to cold.  Similarly, the mass of bees on the bottom board were likely at some point the bees on the edge of the bee cluster, exposed to the cold, froze and fell down onto the bb.  A parasite, while possible, wouldn't likely cause such a simultaneous death, but cold temps would.

3) The queen wasn't affected (as she likely would have been if it were a virus or parasite.  They kept her warm at all costs, even sacrificing themselves in the process.

I don't know why they froze and other hives didn't--perhaps just lack of cold tolerance genetics for them...I don't know.

Were any of the brood or emerging bees dead in the their cells as well? 

Photo credit: Ruth Rinehart (Source: Beekeeping Mentor in a Book, by Donald P. Studinski, p. 38, 2014)

Based on this assessment, freezing is a possible candidate here.  We did have a cold snap right before.  I kind of wrote freezing off because I have a very small hive that was fine, but perhaps you are right, Matthew.  I don't have any brood at this time of year, so nothing to assess on that front.  This hive did have some larger gaps between boxes than some of my other hives, but I checked before winter to make sure they had sealed the cracks well.  All the hives get sun in the winter, but the small hive probably gets more, so maybe that was a factor as well.             

[jimineycricket]

Member:  I have found very similar looking slides on bees that I checked after a varroa check.  I also don't know what all of the little circles are.  I saw some pollen in your first image, and maybe one of the "fried egg" things that Randy Oliver talks about in the second image.  Question:  what did you use to take your pictures?  My cell phone pics are not easy or great.  I have taken some with a webcam and looked at them on my computer.  Nothing I have seen are oblong, therefore I don't think they are nosema.

[The15thMember]

Member:  I have found very similar looking slides on bees that I checked after a varroa check.  I also don't know what all of the little circles are.  I saw some pollen in your first image, and maybe one of the "fried egg" things that Randy Oliver talks about in the second image.  Question:  what did you use to take your pictures?  My cell phone pics are not easy or great.  I have taken some with a webcam and looked at them on my computer.  Nothing I have seen are oblong, therefore I don't think they are nosema.

I just put my point-and-shoot Canon up to the eyepiece.  Then I can use the camera zoom if I need to, and the focus is usually pretty good.  I agree, the auto-focus on a phone camera doesn't work well with a microscope (or telescope) for some reason. 

[The15thMember]

Just a follow-up on this situation.  My little sister came and told me my bees were acting weird this afternoon, and there was a robbing frenzy around this weak hive.  I figured they might be dead, so I popped the top, and sure enough whole rest of the cluster was dead in one corner.  Just not enough bees to keep warm.  I got the equipment into the freezer and cleaned up the stand for spring.  Thanks for all the help everyone.  I'll chalk this one up to freezing/unknown, and I'll probably reuse the nice comb as long as the other hives don't show signs of developing anything similar, since they probably were all robbing this hive out already anyway.         

[JurassicApiary]

Sorry to hear the remainder didn't make it.

[TheHoneyPump]

Something to consider, not yet mentioned other than jiminy.  Varroa damage to in the fall, from mid August through end of September.  In addition to the array of virus that the mite can propagate through the hive (invisible killers), the damage done to pupae during the critical period of raising the `winter bees` has a significant impact on winter survivability by shortening the lifespan of the bee.
I see many dead-outs with the characteristics you have described and shown in the pictures.  The hives start the winter with good populations.  In January they look ok.  By mid February there are no bees left in the hive.  Those deadouts occur end of January through end of February.  The lifespan of the winter bee is significantly shortened by mite damage in the fall.  Instead of living 6 months in winter, they live 3 months.  As a result the hive dies out suddenly 2/3 of the way through winter with no obvious signs of distress.
To check or validate this possibility on this hive, just check back into your inspection notes through 2020 on this hive.  This is when and why records are important.  Did it have varroa counts?  When did you check for mites?  When did you treat for mites?  How do those dates align with the critical time of when winter bees were being raised?  The hive may have been treated for Varro, however too late; meaning the damage was already done to the winter bees population before the varroa load was addressed.

Great job on the nosema check.

... for your considerations.
Hope that helps!

Hope that helps!

[The15thMember]

Something to consider, not yet mentioned other than jiminy.  Varroa damage to in the fall, from mid August through end of September.  In addition to the array of virus that the mite can propagate through the hive (invisible killers), the damage done to pupae during the critical period of raising the `winter bees` has a significant impact on winter survivability by shortening the lifespan of the bee.
I see many dead-outs with the characteristics you have described and shown in the pictures.  The hives start the winter with good populations.  In January they look ok.  By mid February there are no bees left in the hive.  Those deadouts occur end of January through end of February.  The lifespan of the winter bee is significantly shortened by mite damage in the fall.  Instead of living 6 months in winter, they live 3 months.  As a result the hive dies out suddenly 2/3 of the way through winter with no obvious signs of distress.
To check or validate this possibility on this hive, just check back into your inspection notes through 2020 on this hive.  This is when and why records are important.  Did it have varroa counts?  When did you check for mites?  When did you treat for mites?  How do those dates align with the critical time of when winter bees were being raised?  The hive may have been treated for Varro, however too late; meaning the damage was already done to the winter bees population before the varroa load was addressed.

Great job on the nosema check.

... for your considerations.
Hope that helps!

Hope that helps!

It's a good point you make, HP.  I remember even without going and checking, because I was in great debate about what I wanted to do.  When I did my fall mite checks, this hive was right on the treatment line.  They were at like 2.7% or something like that, close to but not quite 3%, which is my treatment threshold going into winter.  I elected to go the minimalist route and I didn't treat them, and maybe that was a factor.     

[Acebird]

I elected to go the minimalist route and I didn't treat them, and maybe that was a factor.   

If you are going to treat one hive you should treat them all.  A treatment free hive cannot live amongst treated hives.

[The15thMember]

If you are going to treat one hive you should treat them all.  A treatment free hive cannot live amongst treated hives.

It's not like this hive is treatment free and the rest are treated, I just only treat each hive when it needs it.  I don't want to treat any more than necessary, and I'm trying to work on treating without chemicals.

[Bob Wilson]

15, I read your posts with interest. What year of beekeeping is this for you?

[Acebird]

I'm trying to work on treating without chemicals.

Well I guess what I am trying to say is you can't.  If you are OK with treating them now I would say just continue.  Trying to work you way into treatment free is like swimming against a rip tide.

[The15thMember]

15, I read your posts with interest. What year of beekeeping is this for you?

I'm about to enter my 4th spring, and I have 5 hives currently.  I'm glad my posts are interesting to you, Bob.  I like it when my experiences can not only help me out, but help others out as well.