queenless or queenright for newly capped queen?

[drjeseuss]

I recently tried grafting with a Cloaked hive. I got 6 good cells. It looks like they will cap tomorrow. I hope to move them to 2 frame nucs tomorrow before they become too fragile. Since these will be newly capped, can they go right into the nuc with bees straight from a queenright hive, or do they need a day queenless, even with a fresh cell? Any reason I should instead wait to day 10 before moving to nuc?

[Michael Bush]

>It looks like they will cap tomorrow. I hope to move them to 2 frame nucs tomorrow before they become too fragile. Since these will be newly capped, can they go right into the nuc with bees straight from a queenright hive, or do they need a day queenless, even with a fresh cell? Any reason I should instead wait to day 10 before moving to nuc?

They are VERY fragile right after they are capped. The wax in the cells is like putty and will tear or warp if you barely look at it.  At 10 days after grafting (6 days after capping) they are much sturdier.  Also if they are 10 days after grafting, they are 2 days from emerging and for all that time there were plenty of bees to keep them warm.  Once you move them to the nuc there many not be plenty of bees to keep them warm.

[OldMech]

well said

[drjeseuss]

Sounds like moving on day 10 would be the better option.

After I made this post, I realized a mistake I made with all this...  maybe too late now to matter.  I had the Cloake on my strong hive, which is more a hassle to get into to check on things, move things around, or risk losing the existing (1 year old) queen.  I decided since the cells were well fed and nearly capped, I'd move them over to a 5 frame nuc (crowded and growing) as it's easier to get in and out with less disturbance to them or me....  thing is, I put the QCs in the middle of the brood nest for care and warmth.  I'm guessing the current queen (new this year) won't be too happy about this.  I know bees build QCs in queenright hives and they are 'allowed', but I also know they tend to tear these out around day 10.  So my new dilema, should I leave these  where they are and hope for the best, planning to move on day 10, or should I try to get them carefully moved back above an excluder, into nucs, or otherwise?  For the 2 frame nucs, I plan to pull brood and bees from the strong hive crowding them a bit.  This will also help me avoid swarming in the strong hive as well (I hope).  What to do about these QCs now?

Lesson learned: let the bees handle things once in a while...  often, saving myself trouble tends to cause twice as much.   

[drjeseuss]

As anyone with more experience (or luck) likely guessed, I came home to six empty cells. Bummer, nothing lost, nothing gained. This isn't a mistake I'll likely make again. I guess now I'll just have more practice grafting. Also, next time I'll put them somewhere and TRY not to meddle with their process... at least until day ten. Thanks for the pointers. Any other suggestions before my next go?

[OldMech]

sometimes the best way to get something figured out, is to make mistakes, and  learn from them.

   I like using a strong queenless colony start to finish..... because I am lazy and dont want to fuss with them more than I have to.

[drjeseuss]

I've tried a few methods so far and trying to find my groove.  My best (and easiest) so far have been splits with fresh hatched brood for emergency cells.  They went very well and produced good laying queens.  I tried grafting with little luck until I tried in a strong hive with a Cloake board...  but that took a lot of mingling for several days, which got the bees fussy by the end of that process...  which is why I wanted to move the cells out of there.  One combination I've not tried is to move the existing queen out to a nuc and use the full queenless hive for graft raising.  I may try that next.  With that method, should I put the queen back after, or just let her build up a new hive from her nuc?  I've also been thinking to pull the brood frames out of her hive, leaving her with the foragers and stores to simulate swarm and boost honey collection...  then use the brood and nurses to build up a number of new nucs (actually a four-compartment queen castle) for grafted cells.  I know I'll hear both ways being 'right'...  but which would be better and why?  Many cells from a single strong hive, or a cell or two each in several nucs?  The end quantity would be the same, and going straight to the nucs saves me some movement and lowers risk of them killing each other, but will the nuc produce as well as the strong hive?  The nuc has smaller numbers...  but also would have less to maintain and feed.  Would the result be roughly the same?  I'm getting better at grafting and think I'll prefer it over unpredictable emergency cells.  I'm just looking for the process to get the cells finished out well, with the least disruption to the bees.  I'm no breeder, so for me the goal is in increase.  I'm not expecting to jump from 2 to 100 this year, but 2 to 10 would be nice.

I don't mind failing, as I learn a bit each time.  So far, the summary of my lessons is that the bees do quite well, and anything I do, regardless of intent, will actually slow their progress.  Go figure.

[capt44]

I use the cloake board system to rear queens.
fact is I'll graft tomorrow about 12 noon.
I'll graft 96 larva.
When I graft I check them in 24 hours to see how many have been excepted.
I then close the hive up don't go back in for 9 days.
The cells are capped on day 5 or 6 then for the next 4 days is a critical development stage.
I don't even open the hive during this period.
Then I go in and move the cells or cell bars to the incubator.
The day before they are due to emerge I move them to mating nucs.