Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: The15thMember on April 19, 2021, 08:32:46 pm
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I have this one hive that seems a little off. There's just a bunch of minor weird things going on, which each on it's own wouldn't bother me much, but all together it has me a little concerned. I was planning on requeening this hive this spring because they became a little too hot for me during the fall dearth last year. But this spring the queen's brood pattern was so good, I decided to give them another chance. They were building up fast until 2 weeks ago when I inspected and there were no eggs or open brood in the bottom box, just capped brood and empty comb, but the next 2 brood boxes looked normal. I noticed some greasy/hairless bees in the hive, and they suddenly weren't drawing fast and their population was either the same or lower than the previous week. I inspected them again today and it was much the same. The bottom box is now almost all drawn blanks with a little pollen and capped brood scattered about. The 2nd box was wall to wall capped brood, not a cell missed, gorgeous pattern. In box 3 there was more nice capped brood, some eggs and just hatched larvae, but very little older larvae, although the ones that were there looked fine to my eye. The population is either the same or lower than last week, and they are still drawing their super, but very slowly. The other thing I noticed today was that the hive smelled a little weird, kind of like off, old, dark comb. Their spring varroa check wasn't bad, but it wasn't great, so I'm going to treat them tomorrow with FormicPro, which will hopefully rule out mites and knock down any sick bees. It's not like the hive looks horrible, but something in there just isn't quite right. Any ideas what could be going on?
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Sounds like a normal hive 3 to 4 weeks after a swarm.
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Sounds like a normal hive 3 to 4 weeks after a swarm.
I kind of doubt it. I inspect all my hives weekly, and while I haven't seen this queen in a while (she's historically a tough one to spot) I've seen eggs every week since I opened the hives this spring.
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Everything in the world seems off to me.
We have boys thinking they are girls.
What's next?
But don't mind me.
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I noticed some greasy/hairless bees in the hive,,,
We?re the greasy bees all black?
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With 3 brood boxes, that's not surprising. Too much space for one queen's pheromone.
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Everything in the world seems off to me.
We have boys thinking they are girls.
What's next?
But don't mind me.
Things are better: at least we are not being feed to the lions as Roman entertainment, pre Constantine. Hope this helps, I try to encourage but not so good at it. Cheers
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I noticed some greasy/hairless bees in the hive,,,
We?re the greasy bees all black?
Yes, some were. Some had their hair rubbed off their thoraxes only, but I imagine they were on their way to being totally hairless.
With 3 brood boxes, that's not surprising. Too much space for one queen's pheromone.
I'm in all 8 frame mediums, so I normally have 3 brood boxes.
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Member I remember a conversation between Van and The Honey Pump a couple years ago where the hairless black bee was discussed. If I remember correctly, the shiny black bee is ok. If the hairless black bee is dull in appearance then there could be a need for concern. Is this right Mr HoneyPunp?
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What happens if you rotate the empty brood box to the top brood spot and put the top brood box on the bottom?
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OK. Didn't know that. I still think it was a swarm, tho.
The black hairless bees are normally just old bees nearing the end. Nothing to worry about.
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With 3 brood boxes, that's not surprising. Too much space for one queen's pheromone.
I?ve been thinking that too. I manage my queens brood in an 8 frame brood box. It?s fine most of the year, with a couple of splits throughout the season.
I just put up The queen excluder a box up in early spring on a big flow if they start putting too much pollen into the honey frames.
But generally I can keep my queens happy in an 8 frame brood box. Just needs management.
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With 3 brood boxes, that's not surprising. Too much space for one queen's pheromone.
I?ve been thinking that too. I manage my queens brood in an 8 frame brood box. It?s fine most of the year, with a couple of splits throughout the season.
I just put up The queen excluder a box up in early spring on a big flow if they start putting too much pollen into the honey frames.
But generally I can keep my queens happy in an 8 frame brood box. Just needs management.
That's interesting. I don't use queen excluders, so my queens just lay where they want. Is that an 8 frame deep?
What happens if you rotate the empty brood box to the top brood spot and put the top brood box on the bottom?
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I'll try this if it persists after the treatment is over. I shouldn't manipulate the hive before FormicPro, and I'd like to see if the treatment does anything to change the situation on its own. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
OK. Didn't know that. I still think it was a swarm, tho.
The black hairless bees are normally just old bees nearing the end. Nothing to worry about.
Wally, how could they have swarmed if I haven't seen a brood break?
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The saying is, as many as 17% of hives have 2 queens at any given time. We just don't notice them since we quit looking when we find the first one. With 3 brood boxes, that was likely the case.
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The saying is, as many as 17% of hives have 2 queens at any given time. We just don't notice them since we quit looking when we find the first one. With 3 brood boxes, that was likely the case.
So you think they raised a new queen, she mated, and then the old queen swarmed?
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I think the bees in the top box raised their own queen, since they were so far away from the bottom box. Then with the extra brood, the hive swarmed. Which queen left, I don't know. In fact, you may still have 2 queens. Watch for fresh eggs in 2 separate boxes.
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I think the bees in the top box raised their own queen, since they were so far away from the bottom box. Then with the extra brood, the hive swarmed. Which queen left, I don't know. In fact, you may still have 2 queens. Watch for fresh eggs in 2 separate boxes.
Okay, I understand now. That sounds like a possibility. I waited much longer to split this year, since the last two years I split too early and my colonies built back up fast enough to swarm anyway, but perhaps I have now waited a little too long with this colony. I have been keeping an eye out for queen cells recently, but I could have missed one or two small supersedure cells. I'll hold off on the mite treatment for now and we'll see what things look like next inspection. Thanks, Wally.
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I think the bees in the top box raised their own queen, since they were so far away from the bottom box. Then with the extra brood, the hive swarmed. Which queen left, I don't know. In fact, you may still have 2 queens. Watch for fresh eggs in 2 separate boxes.
Bees in top box raised their own queen, so far away???
ID: I wished it was as simple as bees in a top box rearing a queen due to distance. I have to go to extremes to make sure there is no queen, no queen cells anywhere, no excluded queen either in the entire hive up to 3 ten frame deeps, or my bees will not take my grafts. Once cells are made, then and only then can I exclude the queen to bottom box while the bees in top deep take care of my queen cells. Any queen pheromones and my bees will not take my grafts. Reason for the cloak board method of raising queens: all queen pheromones must be eliminated. Yes, I can clip a queen antenna or even a foot pad and force supersedure, this is very different.
I agree with the swarm possibilities and two queens in a hive which I see every year. Two queens on the same frame for up to 4 weeks. Most likely, mother and daughter.
Cheers
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The saying is, as many as 17% of hives have 2 queens at any given time. We just don't notice them since we quit looking when we find the first one. With 3 brood boxes, that was likely the case.
I think the bees in the top box raised their own queen, since they were so far away from the bottom box. Then with the extra brood, the hive swarmed. Which queen left, I don't know. In fact, you may still have 2 queens. Watch for fresh eggs in 2 separate boxes.
What I am gathering from iddees information is hives can create multiple queens naturally in the same hive as he described. Bob Binnie is teaching a method of using the original hive as both a cell starter and a cell finisher, with the original queen still allowed in the hive, separated artificially with a double screen board in between the bottom and top box. If I am understanding iddee correctly he is showing bees can and do, do it naturally, more often than we may realize.
Mr Binnies method works. I just tried the Bob Binnie method myself with satisfactory results for a rookie. In fact I am sitting on G waiting on O for the next go round!
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If I remember correctly, Richard Noel of Brittany France, also teaches something similar. A cell starter doubling as a cell finisher. I can't however, remember is he keeps the original queen intact. Richard uses the Nicot system in his operation. Or did last time I was keeping up with his teaching.
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Just going back right to the beginning post and description. My thoughts/comments.
The amount of brood you describe indicates a two queen hive mother/daughter in middle if supercedure cycle which is surprisingly common to come across in mid-spring hives. I sincerely doubt a swarm event at this time.
The stagnated population between inspections and shiny hairless bees is a usual and strong indicator of a viral load. The most common being KBV, ABPV, IAPV, CBPV... or any combination of the prominent 7. Viral load is usually symptomatic and symbiotic with a varroa infestation, but not always.
You are taking the right step 15th, with attacking possible mite load first. Expect to lose/kill a bunch of the sick bees too.
Unfortunately there are no vaccines for honeybee virus. The beekeepers choices with a virus are arrest the spread by attacking varroa and then to let it run its course hoping for a recovery, or terminate the hive to avoid spreading to other. The hive may recover or you may experience a CCD event driven by virus. Meaning come back a week later and all the bees are gone.
You may or may not want to consider caging and saving the queen(s) in a queenless support nuc while the mite treatment runs its course on the hive. After the treatment, significantly reduce the hive size while destroying all QC?s and then reintroduce one of the queens. Release the second queen into the nuc. The issue or risk of saving the queen(s) is that some types of the virus are actually transmitted by the queen to the eggs. Making the decision of what best to do even tougher.
The only way to confirm a viral diagnosis is by lab analysis. Your regional inspector and associated lab may have this as part of their standard service offerings. It is worth calling and asking.
It takes a good in tune beekeeper to notice these by - something is off- . Good eye! Problem is that doesnt always make the decision of what to do about it any easier.
For your considerations. I hope that helps, with some sense of direction, in some way.
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Van, I don't think I am understanding you. First, you say it can't happen, then you say you see it every year. Please explain.
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The saying is, as many as 17% of hives have 2 queens at any given time. We just don't notice them since we quit looking when we find the first one. With 3 brood boxes, that was likely the case.
I think the bees in the top box raised their own queen, since they were so far away from the bottom box. Then with the extra brood, the hive swarmed. Which queen left, I don't know. In fact, you may still have 2 queens. Watch for fresh eggs in 2 separate boxes.
Hi Phil, agreed, a double screen is standard for queen rearing. I don?t use, but it works. However, Member is using 3 each 8 frame without double screen.
Could be ID is talking swarm cells made in upper and lower box, then the queen swarms, leaving qc in top and bottom. ID will verify.
What I am gathering from iddees information is hives can create multiple queens naturally in the same hive as he described. Bob Binnie is teaching a method of using the original hive as both a cell starter and a cell finisher, with the original queen still allowed in the hive, separated artificially with a double screen board in between the bottom and top box. If I am understanding iddee correctly he is showing bees can and do, do it naturally, more often than we may realize.
Mr Binnies method works. I just tried the Bob Binnie method myself with satisfactory results for a rookie. In fact I am sitting on G waiting on O for the next go round!
.
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Just going back right to the beginning post and description. My thoughts/comments.
The amount of brood you describe indicates a two queen hive mother/daughter in middle if supercedure cycle which is surprisingly common to come across in mid-spring hives. I sincerely doubt a swarm event at this time.
The stagnated population between inspections and shiny hairless bees is a usual and strong indicator of a viral load. The most common being KBV, ABPV, IAPV, CBPV... or any combination of the prominent 7. Viral load is usually symptomatic and symbiotic with a varroa infestation, but not always.
You are taking the right step 15th, with attacking possible mite load first. Expect to lose/kill a bunch of the sick bees too.
Unfortunately there are no vaccines for honeybee virus. The beekeepers choices with a virus are arrest the spread by attacking varroa and then to let it run its course hoping for a recovery, or terminate the hive to avoid spreading to other. The hive may recover or you may experience a CCD event driven by virus. Meaning come back a week later and all the bees are gone.
You may or may not want to consider caging and saving the queen(s) in a queenless support nuc while the mite treatment runs its course on the hive. After the treatment, significantly reduce the hive size while destroying all QC?s and then reintroduce one of the queens. Release the second queen into the nuc. The issue or risk of saving the queen(s) is that some types of the virus are actually transmitted by the queen to the eggs. Making the decision of what best to do even tougher.
The only way to confirm a viral diagnosis is by lab analysis. Your regional inspector and associated lab may have this as part of their standard service offerings. It is worth calling and asking.
It takes a good in tune beekeeper to notice these by - something is off- . Good eye! Problem is that doesnt always make the decision of what to do about it any easier.
For your considerations. I hope that helps, with some sense of direction, in some way.
Thanks so much for answering, HP, your advice is always very appreciated. We are having a little cold snap for the next couple of days, so I'll try and check on them again at the end of this week or early next and go from there. I'll look into what my state association offers for testing too; it might be worth it to see what a lab has to say about this.
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This is a good topic. Different points of view from multiple respected experts, realizing each view is dependent of circumstances seen and not seen. Good topic Member. Learning as we go!
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Just reading the original post, it mostly sounds like they are just not using the bottom box anymore and will fill it with pollen. Happens. Do you have a top entrance? Another thing, you mention all the second box is all capped brood and didn't sound like there was much larva and eggs. Might be getting into a swarm time with a packed brood nest.
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Van, I don't think I am understanding you. First, you say it can't happen, then you say you see it every year. Please explain.
Hi ID: first paragraph is referring to pheromones and queen rearing. Second paragraph, different subject: is swarming possibilities. My intent by introducing a new paragraph was to redirect to a slightly different subject, not related to pheromones. Sorry if I confused.
I believe David at Barnyard Bees showed a YouTube video with 8 queens in a single swarm. I forgot the exact number but there was a bunch of queens.
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Just reading the original post, it mostly sounds like they are just not using the bottom box anymore and will fill it with pollen. Happens. Do you have a top entrance? Another thing, you mention all the second box is all capped brood and didn't sound like there was much larva and eggs. Might be getting into a swarm time with a packed brood nest.
This hive does not have a top entrance. I know that they can rearrange sometimes, but it seemed odd that that box was so empty, instead of being slowly filled in as the brood hatched.
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Member,
During my spring inspections, quite often I find that in large hives the bees will leave the bottom box empty. Usually it turns out that the comb is very old and needs to bee replaced. It could bee that the bees detect something in the wax and move up when they have the space.
Jim Altmiller
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Jim, may I assume you don't do box reversals?
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Member,
During my spring inspections, quite often I find that in large hives the bees will leave the bottom box empty. Usually it turns out that the comb is very old and needs to bee replaced. It could bee that the bees detect something in the wax and move up when they have the space.
Jim Altmiller
I also notice this Jim. I switch boxes. Reversals as rast mentioned.
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I agree with THP about the viruses but I have successfully used a 1% solution of Reishi mushroom extract & 1 to 1 sugar water to greatly reduce virus levels in my hives. I have used this solution for the last 3 years after reading the 2018 Washington State/Paul Staments peer reviewed article on the subject & it really works. There is no effect on the brood & the colony seems to boom after treatment. Just a thought.
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I agree with THP about the viruses but I have successfully used a 1% solution of Reishi mushroom extract & 1 to 1 sugar water to greatly reduce virus levels in my hives. I have used this solution for the last 3 years after reading the 2018 Washington State/Paul Staments peer reviewed article on the subject & it really works. There is no effect on the brood & the colony seems to boom after treatment. Just a thought.
Thanks Rick. I do not know much about this, though I did read an article from one of the bee magazines about this. I noticed you have been here a while and do not comment often. Your experienced comment is appreciated!
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Member,
During my spring inspections, quite often I find that in large hives the bees will leave the bottom box empty. Usually it turns out that the comb is very old and needs to bee replaced. It could bee that the bees detect something in the wax and move up when they have the space.
Jim Altmiller
Now that is interesting to me. That could explain the sort of strange smell in this hive. I have some comb that is a couple years old now, and I was planning on starting to cycle some of it out next year.
Jim, may I assume you don't do box reversals?
I also notice this Jim. I switch boxes. Reversals as rast mentioned.
I only reverse my brood boxes when needed. Sometimes I find my bees have moved all the way back down by themselves at the first inspection, and no reversing is required. I did reverse this hive's brood boxes this year.
I agree with THP about the viruses but I have successfully used a 1% solution of Reishi mushroom extract & 1 to 1 sugar water to greatly reduce virus levels in my hives. I have used this solution for the last 3 years after reading the 2018 Washington State/Paul Staments peer reviewed article on the subject & it really works. There is no effect on the brood & the colony seems to boom after treatment. Just a thought.
Wow, that's very unique!
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>I only reverse my brood boxes when needed. Sometimes I find my bees have moved all the way back down by themselves at the first inspection, and no reversing is required. I did reverse this hive's brood boxes this year.
Member that you are using 3 medium 8 frame boxes as opposed to my 10 frame double deep boxes, would more than likely turn a twist to things. Most likely in a good way for you. I have not used mediuns so I can't comment on that but I have full confidence you have the answers or will. 😬 I like the way you think.
Off subject so an extra: When I first started posting here Beepro was experimenting with 5 frame deep nuc boxes for his hives. I wonder how that turned out for him. For curiosity, Would a 5 frame deep be about the same as an eight frame medium? I haven't done the math. Even if they are close, I would think the 8 frame medium would be wider, mort stable, not as top heavy, and easier to stack. Like comparing a corvettes handling to a two seater pickup truck, they both would carry two passengers but the low vet would be more stable. lol.
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Rast and Ben,
I don?t do reversals. If the bees move out of the hive and abandon it, especially here in Florida?s warm weather, there is probably something wrong. Usually there is a visible reason they did, wax moths, or beetles.
Jim Altmiller
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I inspected this hive today, and I think it was just some sort of swarm/supersedure weirdness. The population bounced back significantly this week, and there was some brood in the bottom box again. I only saw one queen still, and I was keeping an eye out even after I saw her. My more careful eye this week also found two very small hatched queen cells. I probably thought they were cups before, honestly I probably didn't see the one at all since it was below some drone brood, but upon closer inspection today I noticed that their edges were ragged like they'd been chewed, not smooth like an unused cup. There were far less hairless bees today, and the weird smell wasn't there either (perhaps that was just a fluke). Thanks so much for all the help guys, I was worried about them last week, but it seems like it was nothing, just an odd-looking queen changeover.