Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Ben Framed on January 27, 2021, 02:08:05 pm
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I am attempting to combine a couple post made in recent topics:
"Anyone seeing Small Hive Beetles?" and "Breaking the propolis seal..."
I also recall Mr HoneyPump asking a similar a question of cold and varroa mites a few months ago, as someone was discussing heat treatment for mites. I will take it a step further and add both SHB and Varroa mites to the question. This is just a theory question. Nothing written in stone nor I am not suggesting this is a magic cure all. Especially since hives may not survive in certain colder climates with too much ventilation and may be useless in warmer climates.
So: Can cold temperatures with added excessive ventilation be a valuable aid in pest control in the right areas or zones? We know that many beekeepers use screen bottoms as far North as New York as posted here in the past here at beemaster with successful overwintering of their colonies. We must also take into consideration that heat rises. So the limits of survival in a excessive top ventilation situation may be a thin ice situation?
I am not suggesting anyone try this as I would not want anyone to lose a hive to a theory question. Just throwing out this for food for thought.
Temperatures drop into the 30s at times during February. Last year I waited til March 1 to open my hive, and found QCs. 7 days later it swarmed.
Just how warm do nighttime temps need to be, before you beeks feel comfortable breaking the propolis seal on your hives to check on winter stores and brood nest conjestion?
Bob, I will attempt to roundabout answer you question as far as my area is concerned and considering my limited experience. I am in zone 7 and this is my third winter of beekeeping. The first two years I was really concerned about breaking the top (seal). To be clear, I do not use an inner cover. My tops are made of Advantech Flooring board. These boards have proven to hold a steady and true level, non warping top making a good top in my opinion for bee hives. This makes for an easy seal of the edges for the bees. However, I have (one) plywood top. It is slightly warped with a gap. Just today I added 2 1/2" rims on each hive for the purpose of using granulated sugar in the mountain camp style for added insurance of non-starvation. Just incase stores get to low before spring. I do not want to lose a hive to starvation if that can be avoided.
To my pleasant surprise, not only was the warped hive top doing well, they seemed to be thriving, having the most bees! I did not dig into this hive but noticed the bees present on top of the frames when the top was removed. I will no longer worry about breaking the seal in winter, if for some reason I feel I just have to go inside for such a reason as today.
This was a slight concern going into winter, (the warped hive top). But I remembered Tim Durham in one of his videos, telling of an old man in North Carolina who had what Tim described as the old mans best hive. Tim said (chunks) had rotted out in places so large that you would be shocked that bees could survive the cold of that area. I am now a believer. lol
PS I would like to add, I did not see a small hive beetle in this hive. Coincidence? Or are we on to something? Also could this aid in the death of varroa mites? Outside of the box questions I know. lol
Small hive beetles can live three months in ideal temperatures, with maximum adult longevity occurring when temperatures are between 28-32?C (82-90?F). Temperature can also drastically impact hatch success, time to hatching, larval growth, and adult fecundity.
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I think something to keep in mind about ventilation is that its primary goal is to remove moisture from the hive. Without top ventilation, my colonies would have water dripping on them all through the winter, which certainly wouldn't be good. I wonder if that was a factor in your recent findings. Do the beetles (and/or other pests) prefer a more humid environment? I'm not sure, but it could be a factor as well.
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I think something to keep in mind about ventilation is that its primary goal is to remove moisture from the hive. Without top ventilation, my colonies would have water dripping on them all through the winter, which certainly wouldn't be good. I wonder if that was a factor in your recent findings. Do the beetles (and/or other pests) prefer a more humid environment? I'm not sure, but it could be a factor as well.
Good question and comment.
Adding, on some of my hives I have holes drilled in the sides for a little ventilation. Don the fat beeman recommends this. Our friend Paus uses sawdust to catch moisture in his hive tops if I remember correctly. (That or a blanket) However the warped top escape of heat is the strange twist to this situation of yesterday. Honestly member I have wondered if the bees would make it this far. I am also concerned that they will be at an disadvantage in early brood build up and early reproduction. We shall soon know more of this experiment and results. Winter is not over by a long shot in my area. :happy:
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Thinking out loud; My feet are really getting cold on this. Since the bees have done so well and February brood build up is almost upon us, I may go ahead and change tops, dropping the experiment completely, counting my blessings. IF inside temperature can be a factor then Nature has already done its job.
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I don't know about mites but shbs will just move to the center of the cluster when it gets cold and only die after the bees die and stop producing heat. I have seen several deadouts with a hardball size area in the middle of the cluster that has each cell of the comb packed full of shbs.
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I don't know about mites but shbs will just move to the center of the cluster when it gets cold and only die after the bees die and stop producing heat. I have seen several deadouts with a hardball size area in the middle of the cluster that has each cell of the comb packed full of shbs.
In that case the beetles may have been deep inside. Thanks Cao. I will put a flat top on. then on the next warm day check and see if there are beetles on top of this hive. Good post Cao.
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I don't know about mites but shbs will just move to the center of the cluster when it gets cold and only die after the bees die and stop producing heat. I have seen several deadouts with a hardball size area in the middle of the cluster that has each cell of the comb packed full of shbs.
I just saw this in my deadout cluster last week. There were 2 or 3 dead beetles on the pile of dead bees on the bottom board.
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I don't know about mites but shbs will just move to the center of the cluster when it gets cold and only die after the bees die and stop producing heat. I have seen several deadouts with a hardball size area in the middle of the cluster that has each cell of the comb packed full of shbs.
I just saw this in my deadout cluster last week. There were 2 or 3 dead beetles on the pile of dead bees on the bottom board.
Member, two or three was not bad at all! What do you do for SHB protection?
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Member, two or three was not bad at all! What do you do for SHB protection?
You know, it's funny. My first year I had a lot of beetle trouble. I used swiffers in the corners of my boxes, and I got some of those oil traps that hang on the frames, all of which helped out some. Then both my 2nd year and last year, I didn't really have any trouble to speak of. I'd see them occasionally in weak hives or above my escape board when I harvested, but I haven't needed to do anything for two years. I'm not sure if that first year I was just giving my hives too much space too fast (because I was new and afraid of swarming), or if I'm in some sort of downswing in their population and their numbers will come back up at some point. Either way, I'll take it and consider myself lucky, hearing what some of you have to go through to deal with them.
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Member, I have years with a feral hive close that literally pumps out small hive beetles. The good part is the feral hive does not survive winter and the incoming beetles drop significantly the following year.
Understand the above is my guess and is based on large numbers of beetles one year and subsequent few the next year. I have no solid evidence of the precise birth place of the majority of those pesky beetles,
Consider: In this neck of the woods, a hollow tree bottom usually has a rotten chewed up sawdust floor of several inches. A small hive beetle does not need to leave the tree hollow to pupate, only needs to drop to the floor then dig in and hatch in due time.
Due to previous ice storms every wooded acre has about a dozen good coon size hollows with more of the squirrel size hollows per acre. I see what looks like to me, many good bee trees in every acre. Each with it own entrance and sawdust bottom at the base of the hollow, maybe 30 ft up or just inches off the ground, perfect for bees and beetles. Small hive beetles are actually sap beetle from africia.
Cheers
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Mr. BenFramed, I am still trying to figure out ventilation. I have seen some varying points of view, thur the years, by some of the best minds on BeeMaster...
Beetles are killed by cold whereas varroa has a Genesis from from a very cold region: Asia cold region.
Agree with Cao, yes sir, those dog gone beetles are kept from freezing by the clustered bees.
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Member, I have years with a feral hive close that literally pumps out small hive beetles. The good part is the feral hive does not survive winter and the incoming beetles drop significantly the following year.
Understand the above is my guess and is based on large numbers of beetles one year and subsequent few the next year. I have no solid evidence of the precise birth place of the majority of those pesky beetles,
Consider: In this neck of the woods, a hollow tree bottom usually has a rotten chewed up sawdust floor of several inches. A small hive beetle does not need to leave the tree hollow to pupate, only needs to drop to the floor then dig in and hatch in due time.
Due to previous ice storms every wooded acre has about a dozen good coon size hollows with more of the squirrel size hollows per acre. I see what looks like to me, many good bee trees in every acre. Each with it own entrance and sawdust bottom at the base of the hollow, maybe 30 ft up or just inches off the ground, perfect for bees and beetles. Small hive beetles are actually sap beetle from africia.
Cheers
That's an interesting idea, Mr. Van. I'm not sure if the trees around here have similar conditions, or how much of a feral bee population we have, but it sounds like a possibility. I think hive beetles can affect bumble bees too, but I don't know if their small nests could generate any meaningful addition to the overall beetle population.
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Mr Van when I was a boy bee trees could readily be found. It is now rare in my area. Pest I suppose.... Makes me wonder if wild bees would now survive in my area without the aid of the beekeeper.
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Maybe some bee hives would survive winter if there was no interference from a bee keeper.
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Hi Mr. Beavo. I forget, do you have small hive beetle in your area , down under. Your statement has merit. In Spring, I have fully inspected April Hives and one absconded last year. A good size thriving hive just vanished within days of first inspection. Keep in mind, my first real Spring inspection is eyes on every frame, every beetle killed with freeze spray, eyes on the queen, stores, brood etc. remember I am a hobbyist with a few hives in my backyard.
I really enjoy, adore my honeybees. Yes, I do talk to my bees during inspections, I probably sound like a nut talking to venomous insects in the back yard. -humor-
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Maybe some bee hives would survive winter if there was no interference from a bee keeper.
Hi Oldbeavo,, Yes Sir I agree, some would surely survive, for a while, as long as they stay strong against SHB. Once the varroa take there place and weaken that hive, then SHB will do there thing. It may make it a year or two or three, but eventually the pest will take them. No doubt they will swarm and multiply. But varroa infected swarms along with all virus associated will take there toll here as well, once again allowing SHB to have at em. The wild bees here in my area are struggling with an eventuality loosing battle. Rarely found here in my area where no beekeeping is close by.
I have seen it happen. A wild swarm in a tree and next season gone. Perhaps the next season a new swarm takes its place and poof it too is eventually is gone. Once there were many wild bees here in my area that thrived. not now I am sorry to say.
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Mr. BenFramed, I am still trying to figure out ventilation. I have seen some varying points of view, thur the years, by some of the best minds on BeeMaster...
Beetles are killed by cold whereas varroa has a Genesis from from a very cold region: Asia cold region.
Agree with Cao, yes sir, those dog gone beetles are kept from freezing by the clustered bees.
Thank you Mr Van, Since I have posted this Topic and read caos' report on SHB along with your report of varroa, I am scraping my cold theory to bunkum, lol.
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Oldbeavo, considering reply number 15 I would like to ask you, has varroa made it to Australia? I hope not.... A blight on our land in my opinion as well as SHB. 😊
Wishing you the best..... Nice hearing from you Sir.
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In my mind, the technical - biological questions that need clear numbers put to are:
- at what temperatures does the varroa mite die? Low temperature, high temperature.
- at what temperatures does the SHB die? Low temperature, high temperature.
After those values (numbers) are known, then it may be possible to have some meaningful discussion about how those temperatures may be achievable (or not) as potential treatment methods.
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Good points Mr HoneyPump adding; We would need to know the same variables for bees, (many folks here might already know that answer. I do not). The reason Cao Reply was pretty convincing to me referring to SHB surviving longer that bees by remaining in the middle of the cluster. Some scientist or scientists might have very well already studied this? I have a lot of confidence in Randy Oliver?s studies. You are the person who introduced me to his studies and again I thank you. I have not found this particular subject in those studies so far, or any other studies for cold effect on SHB and varroa. Jim must have read something as he did give us in his statement below of minimum temperatures for SHB survival.
Adding: since Jim?s statement of SHB living three months in ideal temperatures, (I am adding, even if they were burrowed in the center of the cluster), may explain why they do not survive or thrive in the far North in such places as Canada? Your bees are in storage for much longer periods of time?? Not allowing the a chance to reproduce? Thank you Mr HoneyPump.
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Re: Anyone seeing Small Hive Beetles?
Reply #25 on: January 27, 2021, 10:19:42
Quote sawdstmakr
Small hive beetles can live three months in ideal temperatures, with maximum adult longevity occurring when temperatures are between 28-32?C (82-90?F). Temperature can also drastically impact hatch success, time to hatching, larval growth, and adult fecundity.
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Hi Folks
We don't have Varroa in OZ yet, but we do have SHB.
We have found that they tend to invade hives that are a bit weak or on the decline. Good strong hives that are well populated, no spare space, seem to deal with SHB.
Our climate means that we only see SHB numbers in late Spring/Summer.
In Northern Australia where it is more humid, like Florida I guess have more problems, high humidity and no real winter and they lose hives to SHB. Slimed out.
If we store supers of honey in summer for a few days we risk having SHB lay and start sliming.
Most of the time if we take honey off we extract within 2 days.
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Thank you Oldbeavo. No varroa is good news! Varroa, along with SHB give us and our bees the old (one, two punch).... Having one of these problems is bad enough but both is certainly a responsibility for we beekeepers to be aware of and ready to take arms if need be as I have found it to be a constant battle in my area, and to beekeeping here. 😊😊
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The honey bee is essentially dead at 4 degC low and 48 degC high. They can survive and revive lower temperature but their motor skills are permanently hampered and lifespan significantly shortened.
The queen has to be protected and maintained between 22 degC and 38 degC, else her fertility is destroyed. Drone layers and supercedures soon follow a temperature excursion out of that band.
Drones; same temperatures as the queen, for fertility.
Those are my starting points. My gate posts and fencelines, if you will.
Those are not exact numbers, but should be very close within a degC-ish for purpose of the discussion. (( References: technical anatomy sections of the more recent editions of The Hive and The Honey Bee (Dadant), technical papers from National Bee Research Centres, as well as observations/experience. ))
As for reduced SHB survival and prevalence as going North; the main factor I am told is that the cooler ambient seasonal soil temperatures hamper grub development and thus low to no reproduction SHB. Supportive observation is that we do see SHB occasionally in the migratory hives in spring/summer. No action is taken other than apiary quarantine, as the SHB soon disappear as quickly as they showed up. When winter comes, nothing survives. ( -27 degC here today and frost level a solid 6 ft deep. My last trip out to the lake ice fishing got to right to the end of my auger (36in) before the water welled up.
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Goodness that?s cold!!
Well I have just got to ask, since I love fishing. How was the fishing? What type fish 🐠 do you catch? lol 😊
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Mostly;
Northern Pike (aka. slough shark, Jackfish)
Golden Walleye
Yellow Perch
Burbot (ala Ling Cod, poor mans lobster) - occasionally
There are a few isolated landlocked lakes that can yield some massive Lake Trout Artic Char that easily outshine the typical salmon.
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Mostly;
Northern Pike (slough sharks)
Golden Walleye
Yellow Perch
There are a few isolated landlocked lakes that can yield some massive Lake Trout Artic Char that easily outshine the typical salmon.
I would love to try it at least once!!! Maybe you can post some things on this in the outdoor section along with pictures? I would love to see and hear more!!!!
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Just goto youtube and plug in;
- ice fishing Canada -
Lots will pop up to keep you intrigued and entertained. Yes, yes, the experiences are just like that. Exactly like that.
Particularly anything that pops up with Gord Pyzer is good to watch.
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Will do and once again thank you Sir...
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Interesting that I read today about a March 2017 bee club meeting in Calgary, Canada where Dr Medhat Nasr , Alberta?s chief apiculturist, spoke about them finding SHB in Alberta.
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While we have got back to SHB, I notice a difference between hives in the bees aggression towards SHB. Some hives if they find a SHB in the open they are after him, while others tend to just tolerate them. Any one notice this?
Aggression to SHB should be a breeding selection trait.
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While we have got back to SHB, I notice a difference between hives in the bees aggression towards SHB. Some hives if they find a SHB in the open they are after him, while others tend to just tolerate them. Any one notice this?
Aggression to SHB should be a breeding selection trait.
I have noticed during the warmer months when both bees and SHB are both active my bees will always have the SHB cornered in a strong healthy hive. But the other day when adding the mountain camp, bees were moving slowly and the few SHB that I did see were free to roam. The temperature was in the lower 50s'f.
Adding I did not dig into these hives only removed the tops to add Mountain Camp.
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Ben, I noticed the same lack of aggression today with my hives. I opened the tops just for a quick look and there were four of five SHB's on the inner covers along with a good amount of bees but they weren't chasing them as usual when it is warmer. The bees weren't attacking any SHB's that I crushed which was unusual also. The temperature has been in the low 60's during the day and mid 40's at night.
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Ben, I noticed the same lack of aggression today with my hives. I opened the tops just for a quick look and there were four of five SHB's on the inner covers along with a good amount of bees but they weren't chasing them as usual when it is warmer. The bees weren't attacking any SHB's that I crushed which was unusual also. The temperature has been in the low 60's during the day and mid 40's at night.
Thanks Beeboy01.... The SHB are awful pest!!..... I suppose with the cooler temperatures and slow moving bees, the beatles are free to roam without much opposition? Maybe they are more protected from the elements than our bees? IDK
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Now could be a good time to try some sort of cold treatment, no? (deg C)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210205/8bfe25237cbcd96e226bfd780cda152f.jpg)
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Now could be a good time to try some sort of cold treatment, no?
Oh no! lol :grin:
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While we have got back to SHB, I notice a difference between hives in the bees aggression towards SHB. Some hives if they find a SHB in the open they are after him, while others tend to just tolerate them. Any one notice this?
Aggression to SHB should be a breeding selection trait.
This is my observation also. Same hive strength but different toleration in the hives to them. Also I notice it is dependent on exactly where the hive are. example, two fields direct sun, high and dry. hives in field #1 no SHB problem. Field #2 infestation occurs. This is over a few years moving hives in and out of these 2 fields. I have always pondered on this. still pondering.
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Along with shade versus full sun, I have noticed the colonies in full sun that have more beetles than the others are usually the ones with the highest varroa mite counts.
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But if all hives are kept to 2/3% that's not a factor am I correct? or are you stating that 0% is low and 2/3 % is high? Because if I get a drop over 3 mites I normally treat.
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Because if I get a drop over 3 mites I normally treat.
Yes I treat at that point also. As far as cold with excessive ventilation naturally being an aid in pest control, I now have my doubts after going back and reading some of these interesting replies.
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Along with shade versus full sun, I have noticed the colonies in full sun that have more beetles than the others are usually the ones with the highest varroa mite counts.
I have noticed, in the same beeyard, the hives placed where there is alot more shade are the ones that have much higher varroa counts later in the season. At one yard, this has been a consistent observation for 3 years in a row. No beetle issues here so cannot correlate the two together.
Just an FYI observation from here.
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Along with shade versus full sun, I have noticed the colonies in full sun that have more beetles than the others are usually the ones with the highest varroa mite counts.
I have noticed, in the same beeyard, the hives placed where there is alot more shade are the ones that have much higher varroa counts later in the season. At one yard, this has been a consistent observation for 3 years in a row. No beetle issues here so cannot correlate the two together.
Just an FYI observation from here.
Mr HP I have noticed the same thing with SHB here in my area. It seems that they do better against a hive in the shady areas. I had heard this and trusted that the experienced folks were accurate in their reports. So me being me, I had to experiment with both eyes open so to speak, found the same results to be true as others who report of such with SHB. So; it is apparent that the sun is the best place for bees in conjunction concerning both of these pesky parasites. Thank you for your report of varroa backed with your years of experience to verify. Much appreciated. 👍🏻