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Offline Donovan J

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Super Aggressive Hive
« on: June 12, 2022, 10:15:22 pm »
Couldn't even finish my inspection today because I had hundreds of bees swarming me. Smoke wasn't working at all and I'm surprised I didn't get stung. I've never seen a hive this aggressive. Africanized bees or just aggressive genes? There was a queencell in the hive and I just left it to see what happens. Other hive was full of queen cells and I left them too because the queen was hardly laying
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2022, 10:29:19 pm »
Do not leave any chance for her to propagate. Go back in asap; Kill the queen, kill all the queen cells in her hive, kill all the drones - or put an excluder over the entrance so the drones cannot escape, remove and freeze all her brood frames from the hive, put the freeze killed frames back in the next day, and requeen with a mated queen of known genetics the day after returning the frames.
Why did you leave the other hive as is? As described that one is obvious that hive is on the verge of swarming away. It needs immediate intervention - if you want to be a beeKEEPer. 
A beekeeper manages the hive for desired behaviour and keeps the bees in the boxes.  A bee-haver has bees for a time and soon can only say they had bees for a time.  Which are are ya? Beekeeper or beehaver..
The bees will spend the next 4 days undoing all of the wrongs that the beekeeper just did to them.

Online The15thMember

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2022, 11:41:28 pm »
Donovan, is your other hive pleasant to work?  Why not give the nasty hive a few of their queen cells?  If it was me, I'd do as HP recommends, but give them a frame of the other hive's cells, since you have them, and then split that colony to keep it from swarming.       
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Donovan J

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2022, 01:21:03 am »
Do not leave any chance for her to propagate. Go back in asap; Kill the queen, kill all the queen cells in her hive, kill all the drones - or put an excluder over the entrance so the drones cannot escape, remove and freeze all her brood frames from the hive, put the freeze killed frames back in the next day, and requeen with a mated queen of known genetics the day after returning the frames.
Why did you leave the other hive as is? As described that one is obvious that hive is on the verge of swarming away. It needs immediate intervention - if you want to be a beeKEEPer. 
A beekeeper manages the hive for desired behaviour and keeps the bees in the boxes.  A bee-haver has bees for a time and soon can only say they had bees for a time.  Which are are ya? Beekeeper or beehaver..
I left the other hive because the queen has barely laid at all since I collected the swarm. Maybe 10-20 eggs in a spotty pattern in 3 weeks so I was guessing the bees were replacing the queen and I'm gonna let them do what they're gonna do. I have to get a QE tomorrow so I can add a super to the aggressive hive so I'll go back in and destroy the queen cell and try to find the queen. I'm dreading going back in there but I gotta do what I gotta do. I'll consider adding a frame with a QC into the aggressive hive. The other hive is very calm and ibonly had bees from the aggressive one at my head while working it
3rd year of beekeeping and I still have lots to learn

Offline Donovan J

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2022, 01:22:41 am »
Donovan, is your other hive pleasant to work?  Why not give the nasty hive a few of their queen cells?  If it was me, I'd do as HP recommends, but give them a frame of the other hive's cells, since you have them, and then split that colony to keep it from swarming.     
Yeah that's what I was thinking. Ayyy I hate bee drama 😂
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2022, 05:57:42 am »
Couldn't even finish my inspection today because I had hundreds of bees swarming me. Smoke wasn't working at all and I'm surprised I didn't get stung. I've never seen a hive this aggressive. Africanized bees or just aggressive genes? There was a queencell in the hive and I just left it to see what happens. Other hive was full of queen cells and I left them too because the queen was hardly laying



https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-zones-of-tension-between-Africanized-honey-bee-and-European-honey-bees-based-on-10_fig4_268182089
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If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV

Offline Jim 134

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2022, 07:31:50 am »
    This map is well and good as long as you have no migratory beekeepers..  If you look closely.. You will see that. The 2 biggest commercial bee breeds areas  ... Are not on the European side.If this map.


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Online Ben Framed

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2022, 07:59:15 am »
Thank you Jim 134 for pointing this out! I posted the map mainly for the convenience of the OP. His location in California is in the yellow highlighted Africanized Bee Area of the 2021 map. Without testing we can not answer his question of whether or not his bees are Africanized. Adding it is a pleasure to see younger folks such as Donovan J choosing to join beemaster, as well as feeling comfortable with corresponding interaction with us by posting his questions of concern. Jim 134, I appreciate older bee veterans as yourself as well as newer beekeepers taking the time to help him. I think it is safe to say we have a 'swell bunch' here at Beemaster!  Thanks again Jim 134.

Adding: there is some interesting information posted beneath the map.

Phillip
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If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV

Offline NigelP

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2022, 08:37:36 am »
Make life easier for yourself.
Take an empty hive with you and move the bad tempered hive and leave an empty box where it was.. 24hrs later all the aggressive bees will/should be in the empty box and you should have pussycats to deal with in the moved box. It's a trick I use a lot on super aggressive colonies and it allows you to proceed any direction you want to take. Kill old queen/replace/add frame of eggs etc etc

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2022, 08:40:57 am »
Not too sure about the validity of this map. If you look at Florida, it shows I?m in AHB territory and even to the north of me. Not true. AHB have been staying south of the I-4 corridor from the beginning. Every so often AHBs are brought up by the commercial beeks, here and everywhere else in the country but they don?t survive.
Not sure that this is a AHB hive. When they attack you when you take their hive apart, it is very difficult to work because you cannot see through the bees on your screen and unless you are fully covered from head to toe, you will bee run off. I have talked to people who work AHB in Brazil and if someone makes a mistake in handling their hives, even in full head to toe suits, they get run off and they have to drive away from the area. They do work the hives with out being attacked but you have to do it correctly.
Jim Altmiller

Offline rast

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2022, 08:44:19 am »
Sounds like a queenless hive to me.
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Offline Donovan J

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2022, 09:14:28 am »
Sounds like a queenless hive to me.
Yeah I considered that too. There were eggs and the queencell they had has a small larvae in it so whatever happened didn't happen too long ago
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Offline Donovan J

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2022, 09:31:24 am »
Not too sure about the validity of this map. If you look at Florida, it shows I?m in AHB territory and even to the north of me. Not true. AHB have been staying south of the I-4 corridor from the beginning. Every so often AHBs are brought up by the commercial beeks, here and everywhere else in the country but they don?t survive.
Not sure that this is a AHB hive. When they attack you when you take their hive apart, it is very difficult to work because you cannot see through the bees on your screen and unless you are fully covered from head to toe, you will bee run off. I have talked to people who work AHB in Brazil and if someone makes a mistake in handling their hives, even in full head to toe suits, they get run off and they have to drive away from the area. They do work the hives with out being attacked but you have to do it correctly.
Jim Altmiller
Thanks for your thoughts. This hive has been a little feisty before like maybe 5-10 bees on me but nothing like today. I usually inspect in the morning but was busy so I had to do it in the afternoon. Could that be a factor? It was also a stormy day so maybe that could've contributed too
3rd year of beekeeping and I still have lots to learn

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2022, 09:38:37 am »
Beemaster2
> Not too sure about the validity of this map.

Nor am I sure about the validity of this map since you question it . Donovan J ask if his hive might be Africanized. Knowing his question could not be answered without the bees in question being tested, I did the next best thing seeking to find if AHB do reside in his area.
In my 'attempt to help', I checked out his profile and realized he is located in Vista, California. I then searched for the most current map showing areas of 'verified' africanized bees, by googling 'current map of 'verified' africanized bees'. It gave me the most current 'up to date' map which I posted along with the link and added information listed beneath the map with Africanized bee areas highlighted in yellow, showing where africanized bees have been found as of 2021... Now what percentage or how many hives have been claimed to have been found in the yellow areas, I do not know. If the map valid? (up to date, yes) Is the map bogus? (I do not know)   :shocked:   :grin:

Phillip
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 08:24:33 pm by Ben Framed »
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2022, 10:09:16 am »
Donovan J, to be clear, in no way am I suggesting your colony has taken over by AHB. I have no way of knowing. Their has been some pretty good advise given here about your situation and how to handle it. But, if you really question whether or not your hive is now taken over by Africanized Honey Bees you will need to have the bees lab-tested.

A good example of how these behave can be found on the documentary. "Risk Takers - 112 - Killer Bee Removal Expert | FULL LENGTH | MagellanTV" In case you have not see it, you can now find this on YouTube. Simply copy and past on your youtube search line.
These guy run across some pretty aggressive bees! 
Phillip



« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 10:22:32 am by Ben Framed »
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV

Online The15thMember

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2022, 10:56:05 am »
Make life easier for yourself.
Take an empty hive with you and move the bad tempered hive and leave an empty box where it was.. 24hrs later all the aggressive bees will/should be in the empty box and you should have pussycats to deal with in the moved box. It's a trick I use a lot on super aggressive colonies and it allows you to proceed any direction you want to take. Kill old queen/replace/add frame of eggs etc etc
Donovan, I want to mention that if you use this method, then you wouldn't want to also destroy all the capped brood.  If you remove all the foragers and all the brood, you will have no bees left.  :wink:  The foragers are probably nastier, but will die off faster if you leave them.  The young nurse bees that hatch from the capped brood will be more docile than the foragers, but they may get meaner as they get older and it will take longer for them to cycle out of the hive.   

I left the other hive because the queen has barely laid at all since I collected the swarm. Maybe 10-20 eggs in a spotty pattern in 3 weeks so I was guessing the bees were replacing the queen and I'm gonna let them do what they're gonna do. I have to get a QE tomorrow so I can add a super to the aggressive hive so I'll go back in and destroy the queen cell and try to find the queen. I'm dreading going back in there but I gotta do what I gotta do. I'll consider adding a frame with a QC into the aggressive hive. The other hive is very calm and ibonly had bees from the aggressive one at my head while working it
   
In that case I agree with not splitting the nice colony.  But you should still be able to donate a few queen cells.

Thanks for your thoughts. This hive has been a little feisty before like maybe 5-10 bees on me but nothing like today. I usually inspect in the morning but was busy so I had to do it in the afternoon. Could that be a factor? It was also a stormy day so maybe that could've contributed too
Absolutely it could be a factor.  And the storm could be too.  We were just talking on another thread about how bees are best worked in the morning, because that is the time when they are busiest foraging, so many are out in the field and not in the hive.  But if they are this unpleasant to work, it's probably not JUST those factors.  You should be able to work a hive in the afternoon if you need to. 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 11:24:23 am by The15thMember »
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Offline Donovan J

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2022, 12:19:19 pm »
Make life easier for yourself.
Take an empty hive with you and move the bad tempered hive and leave an empty box where it was.. 24hrs later all the aggressive bees will/should be in the empty box and you should have pussycats to deal with in the moved box. It's a trick I use a lot on super aggressive colonies and it allows you to proceed any direction you want to take. Kill old queen/replace/add frame of eggs etc etc
Donovan, I want to mention that if you use this method, then you wouldn't want to also destroy all the capped brood.  If you remove all the foragers and all the brood, you will have no bees left.  :wink:  The foragers are probably nastier, but will die off faster if you leave them.  The young nurse bees that hatch from the capped brood will be more docile than the foragers, but they may get meaner as they get older and it will take longer for them to cycle out of the hive.   

I left the other hive because the queen has barely laid at all since I collected the swarm. Maybe 10-20 eggs in a spotty pattern in 3 weeks so I was guessing the bees were replacing the queen and I'm gonna let them do what they're gonna do. I have to get a QE tomorrow so I can add a super to the aggressive hive so I'll go back in and destroy the queen cell and try to find the queen. I'm dreading going back in there but I gotta do what I gotta do. I'll consider adding a frame with a QC into the aggressive hive. The other hive is very calm and ibonly had bees from the aggressive one at my head while working it
   
In that case I agree with not splitting the nice colony.  But you should still be able to donate a few queen cells.

Thanks for your thoughts. This hive has been a little feisty before like maybe 5-10 bees on me but nothing like today. I usually inspect in the morning but was busy so I had to do it in the afternoon. Could that be a factor? It was also a stormy day so maybe that could've contributed too
Absolutely it could be a factor.  And the storm could be too.  We were just talking on another thread about how bees are best worked in the morning, because that is the time when they are busiest foraging, so many are out in the field and not in the hive.  But if they are this unpleasant to work, it's probably not JUST those factors.  You should be able to work a hive in the afternoon if you need to.
Gotcha thank you. I work in the mornings so I'll have to go in this afternoon and figure out what to do. I could try using more smoke and I'll make sure I have no holes anywhere in my suit 😂
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Offline Donovan J

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2022, 12:21:19 pm »
Donovan J, to be clear, in no way am I suggesting your colony has taken over by AHB. I have no way of knowing. Their has been some pretty good advise given here about your situation and how to handle it. But, if you really question whether or not your hive is now taken over by Africanized Honey Bees you will need to have the bees lab-tested.

A good example of how these behave can be found on the documentary. "Risk Takers - 112 - Killer Bee Removal Expert | FULL LENGTH | MagellanTV" In case you have not see it, you can now find this on YouTube. Simply copy and past on your youtube search line.
These guy run across some pretty aggressive bees! 
Phillip
Yeah after further consideration I don't think they are adricanized and just angry off for some reason that day. Could be queenless too. I'm going back in today to find out what's going on and see if I need to requeen. Really sucks because this queen was a high producer
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2022, 12:55:00 pm »
I had a few over the past couple weeks that developed like that. When the bees in the hive are young, they seem calm and tame. Since they had an aggressive genetic tendency when they transitioned to foragers and older they got to be no fun. Certainly not super mean en-mass enough to be think africanized but certainly enough of them followed us around the yard and constantly head butting the veils to tip the scale against them. Hives like that are actually great candidates to put out into the remote locations as deterrents for two legged lookyloos and damaging critters such as bears and skunks. However, they are really not ones to tolerate around the backyard or have where there are neighbours that you actually like.

I have requeened all of those testy ones. My suggestion for killing the brood is to significantly shorten the timeline of the correction.  If you leave it, it will be 5-6 weeks before the transition to the replacement genetics of tamer bees is mostly done. While having to put up with mean ones all that time during the old brood develops, emergences, ages, dies.  By removing the brood up front, removing the genetics, making a hard-stop of her offspring, the timeline to seeing transition is shortened to 1 - 2 weeks as the old bees left are dying off.  Yes, there will be a dip in the hive population 2 weeks out. But that actually means less mean bees in the air doesn't it ?!  Better that than the alternative of filling the airways with even more mean bees.  If there are other hives in the yard, those can be used in 1-2 weeks out to boost along and level the hives by donating a frame of capped brood from time to time.

Good to know that the other hive making cells is a caught swarm, and thinking they are replacing the old queen is definitely on track. The waitNC is a good tactic in that case, so long as they have enough space they are in now. It is best to reduce the number of cells down to the two nicest fattest and one well made spicy one. Three total. If you have any idea what day those cells got capped, you can then project forward on the calendar to when you can expect emergence, mating, and finally laying to happen. That way you can avoid disturbing the hive on those period of days that they need to be left alone so the new queen(s) can get sorted out and become queen rite.  If your plan is to let the hive develop cells and mate.. then absolutely you must also do your best to destroy-kill or contain the drones in the mean hive, as in my first post.  Else your new queens will likely mate with some mean drones, and you will be back in the same situation with this new hive, or both hives, being mean in 1 1/2 months.

For your considerations, Hope that helps!

« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 01:14:31 pm by TheHoneyPump »
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Offline Donovan J

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2022, 07:20:28 pm »
I had a few over the past couple weeks that developed like that. When the bees in the hive are young, they seem calm and tame. Since they had an aggressive genetic tendency when they transitioned to foragers and older they got to be no fun. Certainly not super mean en-mass enough to be think africanized but certainly enough of them followed us around the yard and constantly head butting the veils to tip the scale against them. Hives like that are actually great candidates to put out into the remote locations as deterrents for two legged lookyloos and damaging critters such as bears and skunks. However, they are really not ones to tolerate around the backyard or have where there are neighbours that you actually like.

I have requeened all of those testy ones. My suggestion for killing the brood is to significantly shorten the timeline of the correction.  If you leave it, it will be 5-6 weeks before the transition to the replacement genetics of tamer bees is mostly done. While having to put up with mean ones all that time during the old brood develops, emergences, ages, dies.  By removing the brood up front, removing the genetics, making a hard-stop of her offspring, the timeline to seeing transition is shortened to 1 - 2 weeks as the old bees left are dying off.  Yes, there will be a dip in the hive population 2 weeks out. But that actually means less mean bees in the air doesn't it ?!  Better that than the alternative of filling the airways with even more mean bees.  If there are other hives in the yard, those can be used in 1-2 weeks out to boost along and level the hives by donating a frame of capped brood from time to time.

Good to know that the other hive making cells is a caught swarm, and thinking they are replacing the old queen is definitely on track. The waitNC is a good tactic in that case, so long as they have enough space they are in now. It is best to reduce the number of cells down to the two nicest fattest and one well made spicy one. Three total. If you have any idea what day those cells got capped, you can then project forward on the calendar to when you can expect emergence, mating, and finally laying to happen. That way you can avoid disturbing the hive on those period of days that they need to be left alone so the new queen(s) can get sorted out and become queen rite.  If your plan is to let the hive develop cells and mate.. then absolutely you must also do your best to destroy-kill or contain the drones in the mean hive, as in my first post.  Else your new queens will likely mate with some mean drones, and you will be back in the same situation with this new hive, or both hives, being mean in 1 1/2 months.

For your considerations, Hope that helps!
Yes that helps a lot! I didn't notice the cells in my last inspection so they were either capped that day or they were just starting to be constructed when I checked last and I didn't notice. I also didnt find the queen but the bees like to ball on the frames so she couldve been hiding. Today is a much nicer day so hopefully less foragers in the aggressive hive that I'll piss off. About to go in so I'll see how it goes 😬
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Offline Donovan J

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Super Aggressive Hive (Update)
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2022, 08:24:17 pm »
I kinda love this hive. Went in today expecting the same as yesterday but it was way more tame. Only like 5-10 bees at my face. I used more smoke and made slower movements so that could've contributed too. The whole hive is filled with brood, pollen, and honey. Just absolutely solid brood frames. I can take a bit of aggression with production like that. They got a super because every frame is packed and bees are wall to wall in both brood boxes with tons of brood to hatch. Also about the queen cell, it wasn't one. I tore it open and it was empty. A good bee day today and I'm one happy beekeeper. No queens had to die
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2022, 09:21:34 am »
A hive that is running out of room and is really strong sometimes gets pretty hard to get along with.  Sometimes more room will fix that.  Sometimes it won't calm down until they either swarm or you do a split.  Smaller colonies are always easier to get along with.
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Offline Jim 134

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2022, 11:08:00 pm »
This is something I posted in 2017 .. I don't know if this is still true today or not... Yes it is possible to Google... This manual.... Have a great day

   BEE  HAPPY  Jim134    :smile:




FABIS Manual ? Fast Africanized Bee Identification ..I know this test is done in Southern Florida by the state ...The state bee Inspector  show up in a portable lab in a Van ..They will have a decision in about 15 minutes ..If you have African bees or not ...This is a free service From the apiary inspector ln Florida ..From what I understand this is supposed to be perform all cut out and swarms ..In Southern Florida .


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« Last Edit: June 16, 2022, 01:43:47 am by Jim 134 »
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Offline Donovan J

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2022, 12:04:59 am »
A hive that is running out of room and is really strong sometimes gets pretty hard to get along with.  Sometimes more room will fix that.  Sometimes it won't calm down until they either swarm or you do a split.  Smaller colonies are always easier to get along with.
Yeah I just added a super so they have plenty of space. Just learned that my neighbor was attacked and bees are now hunting me and other family members down and attacking. I'm replacing the queen now. That crossed the line
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2022, 06:31:55 am »
>Yeah I just added a super so they have plenty of space.

Maybe... but just adding a super is just some extra that is outside of the current colony.  Mixing those empty frames into the rest of the hive will do much more to actually relieve the congestion than just adding them to the top...
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Online Kathyp

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Re: Super Aggressive Hive
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2022, 01:30:09 pm »
Donovan, I left you a message.  We are from the same neck of the woods  :grin:
There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.? --Walt Whitman