Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: Lesgold on January 16, 2022, 11:47:47 pm
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Hi Folks,
Just doing a bit of research on creamed honey manufacture. It?s pretty hot here at the moment so it?s not ideal to be playing with creamed honey unless there is a cool place to store it. I?m just making a sample batch at the moment to see how it goes. I?m storing it in my camping fridge which has been set to maximum (50 F) That should work OK but it got me thinking. If I were to make a cooling cabinet (similar to my warming cabinet) and use an old fridge or bar fridge, (depending on the size required) I could control the fridge accurately using a temperature controller. (STC 1000) The fridge would still cycle on and off but it could be set to any temperature that I want. Anyone tried this or something similar? An old fridge would cost $20 to $50 and the controller about $15 so there is not a lot of money tied up in it. Construction and assembly time would be about 1 1/2 hours. Interested to hear your thoughts.
Cheers
Les
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To my knowledge creamed honey does not dissolve at room temperature. So why would you need a cooling chamber?
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Ace,
You need a cooling chamber to make the honey crystallize.
If creamed honey gets to warm after it is done it can go back to being a liquid.
Jim Altmiller
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As a former home brewer, I once used an old secondhand refrigerator as a cooling cabinet to make lager beer, There is a controller on the market which will take over the controls of the refrigerator. You may have to wire around the refrigerator's manufacturer's control unit. I was able to take the whole refrigerator down to freezing temperature.
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That was my thinking. Plug the fridge into the controller which would turn it on and off according to the temperature that was preset in the STC 1000.
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Ace,
You need a cooling chamber to make the honey crystallize.
If creamed honey gets to warm after it is done it can go back to being a liquid.
Jim Altmiller
Is it refrigerated in the store?
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Hi Acebird. I think what Jim was trying to say was that the crystallisation and formation of creamed honey occurs best at cool conditions (from what I?ve read around 57 degrees) At the moment the temperatures in my area range from about 68 overnight to a high of around 85 of a day time. I therefore need the cooling to get the conditions right. Once the creamed honey crystals have formed, it will be stored at room temperature. I am still getting some of my early honey crystallising even though we have had days up to 100 degrees.
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I am still getting some of my early honey crystallising even though we have had days up to 100 degrees.
If something crystallizes naturally it means it doesn't take a lot of energy to happen but the reverse does take energy.
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. Once the creamed honey crystals have formed, it will be stored at room temperature. I am still getting some of my early honey crystallising even though we have had days up to 100 degrees.
It wants to be stored somewhere cool and definitely out of direct sunlight. If soft set is exposed to higher temps it can (and does) separate into three layered honey, liquid, in-between and soft set. Unsellable when that happens.
I often have to provide shade over my soft set on market stalls to stop this happening.
Glucose is your enemy for setting honey, honeys with high level of glucose set really fast. We have a major crop Oil Seed Rape (Canola) and it sets solid in less than a week after extraction. In fact if you don't get the supers off fast enough it will set in the combs inside the hive and become unextractable.
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That is fast. I know that?s lot of the professional beekeepers put hives on the canola every year. I am experimenting with some seed honey at the moment. It took about 6 months to crystallise initially and I have quite a few buckets that have set solid. I am blindly plodding along to see what happens with the small test batch. I ground the crystals down for an hour with a mortar and pestle and then added it to some raw honey and mixed it. I am storing it at 10 degrees C to see what happens. Should I be stirring that seed honey at all? There is about 700 grams in the test batch.
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Les if you just leave it to set you will end up with a "soft set" honey but one with larger aggregates of crystals. Take a potato masher and plunge it up and down, being careful to not introduce air bubbles. As you force the crystals through the holes in the masher the shear forces break up the crystal aggregates into smaller crystals. A really smooth soft set honey will look white in the jar.
(https://i.ibb.co/nntS0G0/softsetsmall.jpg)
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Thanks Nigel, I?ll get onto that and see how it goes. I assume you follow the same process when you get to a larger batch. Can you use a stirrer attached to a drill? I see there is a double bladed style available that doesn?t introduce air into the mix. Any thoughts on those?
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New one for me that Les. All the drill stirrers I ever tried introduced air and you ended up with a layer of froth in each jar. But if they are advertising one that doesn't introduce air, well worth trying as much less labour intensive than using a potato masher.......Now I have my creaming machine I'm a contented bunny.
As I see it your biggest problem in the "tropics" is going to be heat. It is very difficult to make good soft set when it's too warm. Even in the temperate UK I need to make a years supply during our winter, any of the stuff I make in the summer is just not as good.
I've a batch brewing at the moment. In my bee shed its a round 2-3C but the friction created by the crystals rubbing over each other makes the mixture around 18C, which is fine. In the summer this temperature gets over 24-25C and it just won't set as fine...it "soft sets" but it's a coarser set. Which might not matter too much in the long run....depends how much of a perfectionist you are :cool:
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This is what I?m thinking of:
Perhaps with a smaller pitch. The bottom blade pulls material up where as the top one pushes down. Not sure how effective they are but the idea sounds as if it could work. My seed batch is being held at 10 degrees in a small fridge. Was planning on storing the soft set the same way. I could get away without refrigeration for a month or two during winter. I would like to produce a quality product but I don?t think I can get anywhere near what you are producing. The honey that came out of the mortar and pestle was white. When I mixed it with some raw honey, the colour changed to a tan colour (similar to what I see commercially) It has remained that way ever since. The honey however is not grainy.
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This is what I?m thinking of:
Off the top of my head I would not recommend that. I think you should be looking at something like a DoBoy mixer at a slow speed for a long time. Commercially I think something like a mill that crushes the crystals would work best.
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NigelP
Now I have my creaming machine I'm a contented bunny.
Nigel,
What does the heart, (the mechanism), of your creamer machine look like? Can you post a picture?
Thanks,
Phillip
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Will do....can't at moment as full of soft setting honey. Just imagine a butter churn....but motorised.
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Will do....can't at moment as full of soft setting honey. Just imagine a butter churn....but motorised.
Thanks Nigel..
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Thanks Acebird. This is a totally new area for me so any feedback is appreciated. From what I?ve seen on video clips etc, a slow speed is what is required to keep air out of the honey.
Nigel, is your machine on an automatic timer? From what I?ve read, some of the models appear to be.
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Yes, its on a 15 minute churn rest for an hour and repeat for a few days.
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As Promised some pictures of my honey creamer, in use and after cleaning. This model takes 100L.
(https://i.ibb.co/mJVtzwS/cream1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/QJT4rrw/cream2.jpg)
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That is more like it.
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That?s a nice looking piece of equipment. Thanks for posting the pics Nigel.
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I like it too. Thanks for taking the time to photograph and post it Nigel. From what I can see the inside sort of favors the inside of a home ice cream making machine. But the motor looks far more heavy duty, sort of like an electric, overhead hanging shop hoist motor, 'sort of', both strong and steady...
Thanks again,
Phillip
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I am curious about the slight gap between the outer turntable/mixer edge and the edge of the chamber itself. Does this area need to be scraped and from time to time? Or does the machine 'draw' the outer contents to the center by itself? I would figure the machine would do it by itself but I am also taking into consideration the thickness of the cream which 'might' need a little special attention from time to time? I really like the looks of your machine Nigel..
Phillip
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Regarding outer gap, it is not an issue in any way. I draw the creamed honey off into buckets before jarring. The use the motor and heating function to clean the inside.
It needs to be a strong motor as the mixture it is stirring is very thick. I'm just glad I bought it a few years ago when the price was sensible!. Just under ?2.5K now.
https://www.abelo.co.uk/beekeeping-category/creaming-machines/
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There is a creeper version (the 33 litre version with the plastic tank) Have you any opinions on that one? I was looking at that one locally for $1600. I won?t head down that path for a while until I know what is possible in my area during the winter. Did you notice the creaming paddle on that site? That?s the one that I was asking about. I might make a small one to try with my test batch of honey to see if it works.
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Difficult one Les. The unit I have is insulated and has a heater so I can warm my soft set once it has set to make it easier to jar. I suspect in your climate you want the paddle and motor without insulation (as this is what is retaining the heat generated by the friction of the crystals rubbing against each other).
With my creamer I can only make really good (white) soft set during the winter months where we are currently averaging about 4C for day time temps.
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Cheers Nigel. I?ll just keep going using a manual method to see how things work out before I decide the next step. Thanks for your input.
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I might make a small one to try with my test batch of honey to see if it works.
I would start here.
https://www.kitchenaid.com/countertop-appliances/stand-mixers.html
You can find them anywhere used in the states because they are too heavy to use for most women. Those that use them have them on the counter top permanently. Ours came out of a dumpster.
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Yes, but be careful. I burnt the motor out on an expensive mixer when I first started making soft set.
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I am wondering, once the honey has been creamed as shown in the picture that Nigel posted in reply10, how long will the honey remain in this nice looking creamed state? Is this a permeant state or will the texture change over time, even if a long period of time?
Phillip
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Ben, can't give you exact answer over a "long" period of time. But if kept out if direct sunlight or excess heat at least a year....I've usually sold out before then..... However if exposed to sunlight/heat it will change. In the past I have ended up with tri-coloured "honey", with 1 part soft set at the bottom of the jar. A liquid honey at the top and something in-between in the middle. Alas no photos.
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Thanks Nigel. You might have already said? , but what is an ideal temperature for storage?
Phillip
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Had a bit of spare time so I thought I?d build a small double bladed stirrer out of stainless. Will give it a whirl (pardon the pun) this afternoon to see how it works. If it doesn?t work, I?ll end up with a paint stirrer.
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Thanks Nigel. You might have already said? , but what is an ideal temperature for storage?
Phillip
Ideal would be 14C or less.....but as few of us have temperature control to that level for a alrge storage area then I store mine in the coolest room in the house. So it's usually kept at between 15-20C in our UK climate. From experience on markets it's fine for short periods at much higher but if exposed to direct sunlight on a hot day will start to separate back to runny.
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Tried the mixer out and made a small batch of creamed honey. This is what I started with when the seed honey was added to my raw honey.
The mixer seemed to do a good job at mixing the two parts together.
There didn?t appear to be any air dragged into the honey and the two parts combined with minimal work.
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From experience on markets it's fine for short periods at much higher but if exposed to direct sunlight on a hot day will start to separate back to runny.
That is exactly how I re liquefied honey that crystallized.
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There didn?t appear to be any air dragged into the honey and the two parts combined with minimal work.
Yes, that blade will do a good job of mixing but will not break down crystals without going to high speed. High speed will introduce air.
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It is a bit on the small size to breaks down large crystal aggregates and mixes.
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Nigel, should I then continue to stir this honey regularly to break down the crystal size? I wonder if this stirrer will do the job as the honey hardens slightly.
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Yes it need stirring to break the crystal aggregates down. I burnt out a food mixer motor in my early days as soft set is a very viscous mixture. Maybe they have improved the motors in these mixers, but I doubt it.
I'd use a potato masher and keep an eye on the temperature.
Pre my ,machine days you could see it going whiter the more it was worked, assumign you keep the temperature of the mix low.
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Thanks Nigel. I stirred it with the cordless twice today for about 5 minutes and could see the honey getting lighter. Might give it one more go before bed. Still keeping the mix at 10 degrees C.
Cheers
Les
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I burnt out a food mixer motor in my early days as soft set is a very viscous mixture.
For sure. You need one with gearing so the motor turns at high speed while the auger turns slowly, just like the unit you are using.
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I did a similar thing last night. The honey was putting a fair bit of stress on the cordless drill so I went to a low geared electric drill to do the job. I bet a lot of equipment is really put to the test making soft set.
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I did a similar thing last night. The honey was putting a fair bit of stress on the cordless drill so I went to a low geared electric drill to do the job. I bet a lot of equipment is really put to the test making soft set.
Wombat2 uses a high torque low RPM drill designed for stirring plaster mixes for his large 9 frame home built extractor. I am thinking with a little imagination and work you could build a nice honey creamer with a similar gadget...
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I am actually surprised how much force is required to turn the little stirrer that I made. The torque required on Nigel?s machine would be amazing. My high torque drill only rotates at a maximum of 500rpm but i reckon it would not even get Nigel?s paddle to move. I could build a machine to do the job but it would take a bit of work. The reduction gearbox would need to be pretty solid.
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I would say 500 rpm is way too high. I would say 100-200 would be the range. For a standard DC motor that would be a 10:1 reduction.
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I did a similar thing last night. The honey was putting a fair bit of stress on the cordless drill so I went to a low geared electric drill to do the job. I bet a lot of equipment is really put to the test making soft set.
Wombat2 uses a high torque low RPM drill designed for stirring plaster mixes for his large 9 frame home built extractor. I am thinking with a little imagination and work you could build a nice honey creamer with a similar gadget...
Well scrap the above idea of even the low RPM drill designed for stirring plaster, I just checked the proper RPM for cream honey making. Even 100-200 mentioned by Ace is to fast according to Better Bee.
Lyson 50L Creamer Unheated - Betterbeehttps://www.betterbee.com ? ... ? Creamed Honey
Maximum speed: 36 RPM. 230V power.
$1,665.95 ? In stock
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That sounds about right Ben, just timed mine at 1RPM every 2 seconds, so near enough to 36RPM as manufacturers claim.
I know the Lyson creaming machines are expensive. I worked out how much honey I would need to sell to buy one. At the time it was around 300 jars of honey at ?5/jar, now about 500 jars :cry:
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Hi Acebird. I am not using the drill at 500rpm. Should have mentioned that it was variable speed. I?m only running it at about 200 rpm at a guess. Running it too quickly introduces air so I had to find a speed that worked well for my stirrer. Its actually good to know the speed of Nigel?s machine. I did some rough sums to figure out how far the outer edge of the paddle would travel in a minute and then compared it to my small stirrer. The results were very similar. It looks as though Nigel?s machine may actually be running just slightly faster than my stirrer (by about 5%) so I?m happy with that.
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I did some rough sums to figure out how far the outer edge of the paddle would travel in a minute and then compared it to my small stirrer.
Yes, diameter of the auger makes a difference. That is why that type of stir is not efficient. The inner part of the blade is useless for breaking down the crystals.
Thinking about the small beekeeper creaming honey for his / her own use I look back at the counter mixer I mentioned before. Most have power take offs in the head for attachments like meat grinding. This is geared so turning at a slow speed. The auger in a meat grinder runs close to the outside housing. I am wondering if this closeness is enough to break down the crystals. I don't think you could use the knives and extrusion plates but it might be worth a try if you are into tinkering. Maybe get an old fashion hand crank one for testing.
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Before I got automated I used a large custom designed "potato masher" to work the setting hiney. It worked well but was quite labour intensive if you make a lot of soft set. But for someone wanting say a bucketful, is an ideal cheap method. The shear forces as the crystals are forced through the holes in the masher breaks them down into smaller crystals.This is the one sold by a UK beekeeping company (Thornes). They will ship abroad.
(https://www.thorne.co.uk/uploads/media/ProductImage/0001/14/thumb_13954_ProductImage_big.jpeg)
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Good point Acebird. I have mixed my soft set a few times each day and do notice a colour change but there is no way that I will end up with anything like the white looking honey that Nigel is getting. Nigel, that masher may be the way to go for me as I would only ever do small quantities at a time. I will post a picture to show what I have ended up with. The honey is smooth on the tongue but from what you have said before, the crystals must be much larger than yours due to the colour.
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Here is a pic of the honey just after stirring. I tried going a bit quicker this morning to see how it would go but as you can see, I introduced a bit of air. May give it one more slow speed stir in a few hours and then pop it into jars.
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Les you look to be handy at fabricating and welding stainless steel. I am posting a picture of a plaster stirrer. Its should work on the same principle as a honey creamer. I do not know the materials it is made from. Notice the angle to the outside of the blade It will be wider than what you have already made but maybe not wide enough? Wont know until knowing the measurements. If not I am suggesting custom fabricate something similar wile taking anther look at the Picture Nigel posted of the inside of his store bought creamer, coming up with a design tall enough and wide enough that will reach your outer edges?
Phillip
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Thanks for that Phillip. If you look closely at the off set blades, they actually use the same principle as my stirrer. Being a larger diameter, they should be an improvement on what I have. When mixing plaster, you don?t want air in the mix so this may work well. I was actually looking at Nigel?s manual potato masher style of stirrer. I reckon I could make that one or the one you just showed me quite easily. I want to see how this sample batch of creamed honey turns out before continuing any further. Although not in the same league as Nigel?s honey, I am reasonably happy with what I was able to produce using my limited resources. I will place the honey into jars today and store it at 10 degrees C and see how large the crystals grow. The colour and texture is far superior to what the most common commercial creamed honey manufacturer sells. If my honey ends up close to that in a few weeks, that would be a good starting point.
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Thanks for that Phillip. If you look closely at the off set blades, they actually use the same principle as my stirrer. Being a larger diameter, they should be an improvement on what I have. When mixing plaster, you don?t want air in the mix so this may work well. I was actually looking at Nigel?s manual potato masher style of stirrer. I reckon I could make that one or the one you just showed me quite easily. I want to see how this sample batch of creamed honey turns out before continuing any further. Although not in the same league as Nigel?s honey, I am reasonably happy with what I was able to produce using my limited resources. I will place the honey into jars today and store it at 10 degrees C and see how large the crystals grow. The colour and texture is far superior to what the most common commercial creamed honey manufacturer sells. If my honey ends up close to that in a few weeks, that would be a good starting point.
Nigels' look premium for sure! I bet with your enthusiasm, you will achieve that quality of creamed honey as well, once you get everything together.
Phillip
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IN many respects the colour is immaterial, as long as your soft set is smooth on the tongue.
IIRC using the masher I never managed a white soft set like the machine produced stuff, but it was perfectly presentable and sold well.
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Good to know Nigel. Thank you for your input. I have picked up some invaluable material from your comments.
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Before I got automated I used a large custom designed "potato masher" to work the setting hiney. It worked well but was quite labour intensive if you make a lot of soft set.
Mimicking the crank design of an oil well you could take the work out of it.
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I am posting a picture of a plaster stirrer. Its should work on the same principle as a honey creamer.
Yes it would be way better then what he has now. He would have to mount it in bearings and find or make a container that is slightly larger then the auger to be most effective.
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I think the larger bladed stirrer would be the best option. I ended up giving the honey one more stir and then popped it into jars.
These samples will now be given to family and friends so that I can get some feedback. I will keep 1kg for seed honey that I could use in the winter if needed.
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Les, they look spot on. Well done.
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A big thanks goes out to Acebird and yourself for all of your comments and advice. Without them, I would not have known the little secrets as to what is required to make good creamed honey. I am just sitting down to breakfast now. Guess what?s on my toast??..
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A big thanks goes out to Acebird and yourself for all of your comments and advice.
Appreciate the complement but my input was theory, Nigel has the experience. Listen to the theory but follow the experience first.
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You both made me stop and think which often hurt the old grey matter upstairs. Hopefully some of what you guys put forward will be of some help to others as well. Nigel, what are you charging for the creamed honey in comparison to normal honey? The extra time and equipment obviously has a price. You did mention it in earlier post but the size of the container was not stated.
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Les those look good. Congratulations! Tell us about that breakfast, how was it? 😊
Phillip
I am just sitting down to breakfast now. Guess what?s on my toast??..
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The honey was smooth and firm. Far better than the commercial creamed honey that I have eaten before. I can only imagine how good Nigel?s product would taste.
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The honey was smooth and firm. Far better than the commercial creamed honey that I have eaten before. I can only imagine how good Nigel?s product would taste.
It taste good to you and we are our best critique in most cases, as we strive for the best possible. Nigels' does have the Snow White look but as far as taste, remember what Nigel said: "IN many respects the colour is immaterial, as long as your soft set is smooth on the tongue." So there you have it form the man of experience himself!! Keep up the good work Les.
Phillip
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Thanks Phillip. It was an area of beekeeping that was totally foreign to me. To have input from members who have experience and knowledge actually helped in the learning process. Their icomments saved me a lot of time and most probably disappointment. The quality of the soft set is actually better than I thought it would be. The only real issue I have is that it is labour intensive (if you don?t have Nigel?s equipment) In hindsight, the little stirrer that I made actually worked quite well. My test batch was only about 6kg and the mixer stirred the honey thoroughly. I may make a slightly bigger batch and see how it handles a larger volume. The honey did change colour during the mixing and there was an increase in temperature during the process. I wish now that I?d measured the temperature change. Nigel would then be able to give feedback as to its efficiency (based on his knowledge of this subject) The low speed metal drill that I used did the job with ease. I am confident that I could make something larger (based on a comment made by Acebird) The feedback I get from family and friends will dictate whether I include soft set as a saleable item along with the other honey products that I sell.