Author Topic: Winter Solstice and Starve Outs (Read 4492 times)

iddee · « **on:** December 21, 2022, 06:34:51 am »

The bee's spring begins today at 4:48 PM EST today, winter solstice. The queen will begin to ramp up the population shortly. That means the food supply will be attacked by more and more mouths until the flowers bloom. Keep an eye on the weight of your hives and feed when needed. Most hives die of starvation just before first bloom because the beekeepers don't realize how many more bees are eating away at the stores.

Note: the title of this topic has been changed form "Winter Solstice" to "Winter Solstice and Starve Outs" explanation is located in Reply #13

Ben Framed · « **Reply #1 on:** December 21, 2022, 08:13:32 am »

This is a good point iddee, though a colony can be lost for several reasons, loss of resources as you pointed out is another one of those reasons a colony can be lost during the winter months.

Phillip

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #2 on:** December 21, 2022, 09:13:33 pm »

Definitely true, the hive life cycles with the solstice and equinox. But the extent expressed is regional. Where I am, LoL, brooding is waaaaaaaayy off on my local weather radar. It will be at least 3 months here before they start anything substantive. For now they are in maintenance mode only, brooding smaller than one or two palm sized patches.
Looking out the window, I just realized that my deep freeze food storage chest is 24 degrees Celsius ( 44 deg F warmer ) warmer than it is outside right now. Yes, am saying that my freezer is much warmer than my bbq patio chairs.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #3 on:** December 21, 2022, 09:59:42 pm »

HoneyPump I like the picture in your avatar..

Phillip

Lesgold · « **Reply #4 on:** December 21, 2022, 10:23:42 pm »

If you have a look at your southern neighbours, we are getting our longest day with early morning starts for the girls.

The15thMember · « **Reply #5 on:** December 21, 2022, 10:28:31 pm »

Quote from: TheHoneyPump on December 21, 2022, 09:13:33 pm

Looking out the window, I just realized that my deep freeze food storage chest is 24 degrees Celsius ( 44 deg F warmer ) warmer than it is outside right now. Yes, am saying that my freezer is much warmer than my bbq patio chairs.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #6 on:** December 22, 2022, 01:09:28 am »

Quote from: Ben Framed on December 21, 2022, 09:59:42 pm

HoneyPump I like the picture in your avatar..

Phillip

Look up: Sun Dogs
Only seen when is bitter cold. Which is daily this time of year. No clouds, bright sun, bright snow, and ice fog ? makes for some spectacular halos.

jimineycricket · « **Reply #7 on:** December 22, 2022, 10:12:41 am »

Hi Honeypump, Do you unplug your food freezer when it gets this cold?

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 22, 2022, 08:24:32 pm »

Jimmy,
You don?t have to. It just never runs.
Jim Altmiller

Acebird · « **Reply #9 on:** December 23, 2022, 08:40:20 am »

Most refrigerator/freezers can operate in cold weather, some cannot. Check with manufacturer.

iddee · « **Reply #10 on:** December 23, 2022, 10:06:25 am »

Anybody here keep bees?

Ben Framed · « **Reply #11 on:** December 23, 2022, 10:42:19 am »

Quote from: iddee on December 23, 2022, 10:06:25 am

Anybody here keep bees?

Iddee there has been a couple times since I have been moderator that I have ask our members to 'please stay on topic'. The topic:"Something else to consider-becoming the crazy prepper" located in the Coffeehouse. The reason was stated clearly then, 'since it was a Coffeehouse Topic which was benign of political views', I ask our members to please stay on topic in regard to that refreshing topic. The second that I recall, was the topic started in General Beekeeping titled: "All y'all in Florida" which was a serious intended topic in regards to the concerns of the well being of our members in Florida vs the last hurricane.

It is true your topic has drifted as many topic drift during friendly conversation.
If you would like for us to split this topic from where it began straying from your original intention, we will be happy to do so...

Phillip

iddee · « **Reply #12 on:** December 23, 2022, 11:46:25 am »

I think it may save a few hundred hives between now and first bloom if it were left as intended, which was to warn about more mouths reducing the stores.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #13 on:** December 23, 2022, 12:15:41 pm »

Quote from: iddee on December 23, 2022, 11:46:25 am

I think it may save a few hundred hives between now and first bloom if it were left as intended, which was to warn about more mouths reducing the stores.

Ok we will leave it.

Members as we know the "Winter Solstice" means cold for many. Location dictates the severity of the level of cold thus the degree of chances of starvation for colonies running out of stores. Let's honor iddees good intentions in his first post here, and his request to stay on topic related to his first post, which is to warn of the possibility of starve outs.

Adding: I have also changed the title of this topic form "Winter Solstice" to "Winter Solstice and Starve Outs" to further correspond with what was intended in relation to iddees meaning in his first post... Thanks for your patience...

Phillip

Michael Bush · « **Reply #14 on:** December 23, 2022, 02:13:31 pm »

I think you'll find even in the far north a queen will often lay a little patch of brood shortly after the solstice. Then take a break, then raise another little patch of brood, then take a little break then go gangbusters raising brood. It's not good for the bees, but you should take a look in a hive sometime in January or February...

Ben Framed · « **Reply #15 on:** December 23, 2022, 05:15:47 pm »

Quote from: Michael Bush on December 23, 2022, 02:13:31 pm

I think you'll find even in the far north a queen will often lay a little patch of brood shortly after the solstice. Then take a break, then raise another little patch of brood, then take a little break then go gangbusters raising brood. It's not good for the bees, but you should take a look in a hive sometime in January or February...

Honey Bees are amazing creatures in that they do reproduce even though in small numbers during cold periods of the far North, as you and HoneyPump have described, thus insuring there are at least a few younger bees coming along as 'some' of the older winter bee die off naturally. It takes stores of both honey and pollen to reproduce, and by the way, enforces the concern with the need for plenty stores as iddee has emphasized on this very topic.

Phillip

beesnweeds · « **Reply #16 on:** December 24, 2022, 12:31:56 am »

My colonies may start very small patches of brood now but won't ramp up until mid to late March. I leave enough feed on in late summer / early fall. No winter feeding needed. Rare occasion I will put a 5lb slab of creme fondant on a light nuc in March.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #17 on:** December 27, 2022, 08:29:23 am »

Even a small patch of brood this time of year costs a lot of stores just to keep it warm. The cluster temp has to go from about 60F up to 93F to raise any brood.

beesnweeds · « **Reply #18 on:** December 28, 2022, 09:21:45 pm »

Quote from: Michael Bush on December 27, 2022, 08:29:23 am

Even a small patch of brood this time of year costs a lot of stores just to keep it warm.

Probably if you're keeping Italians. Over the years my colonies are now all overwintered NWC/Russian mix. Way more frugal with stores. Im not saying its the case or even possible, but healthy winter bees seem to adjust colony size and brood according to stores when foraging is done in the fall and increase rapidly just before maple pollen.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #19 on:** December 29, 2022, 06:49:37 am »

The thing about the more frugal bees is that the same drop in stores happens, but it happens later in the year. They will build up even more explosively than the Italians but will do it later in the spring. The risk is still there but later.

beesnweeds · « **Reply #20 on:** December 29, 2022, 10:27:58 am »

For my area there's a lot less risk. It's much easier to feed bees in warmer early spring temperatures than below zero winter temperatures.

Acebird · « **Reply #21 on:** December 30, 2022, 08:44:25 am »

Many, many hives starve in the Adirondacks. And it can happen to those that feed. Bees are gamblers and they can't control mother nature.
When someone claims their bees froze what really happens in most cases is that they starved.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #22 on:** December 30, 2022, 09:31:12 am »

Quote

When someone claims their bees froze what really happens in most cases is that they starved.

Brian I think you might be right, in a lot of cases starvation will be the couplet...

Phillip

Kathyp · « **Reply #23 on:** December 30, 2022, 03:00:53 pm »

February is usually the biggest danger month in my neck of the PNW. I swear by the dry sugar on the inner cover or over the box in some way. It absorbs moisture and gets nice and crusty. It's easy to check and if they are eating it, they probably have run out of their own stores. If it starts to warm up before anything blooms they'll go through a few lbs of it and I don't have to worry about introducing moisture with syrup.

Might not work as well in a dry area, but here it works great.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #24 on:** December 30, 2022, 04:31:08 pm »

Quote from: Kathyp on December 30, 2022, 03:00:53 pm

February is usually the biggest danger month in my neck of the PNW. I swear by the dry sugar on the inner cover or over the box in some way. It absorbs moisture and gets nice and crusty. It's easy to check and if they are eating it, they probably have run out of their own stores. If it starts to warm up before anything blooms they'll go through a few lbs of it and I don't have to worry about introducing moisture with syrup.

Might not work as well in a dry area, but here it works great.

Kathy your method and explanation is my experience as well. This is my go to method. The advantages are real......

Phillip

beesnweeds · « **Reply #25 on:** January 02, 2023, 03:30:16 pm »

I inspect dead outs in the Adirondacks for new beekeepers every spring. Almost none of them starve, but give the appearance of starvation. Typically what happens is the beekeeper doesnt treat for mites or doesnt follow up on a mite count to see if the treatment worked. In some cases just poorly timed treatments as well. Brood frame cells are lined with mite feces and some with perforated cappings. As viruses get worse bees struggle to collect enough stores. There's a beautiful etching by Theodore R Davis 1868 " Working down the Bee Tree " in the Adirondacks (for whatever reason I cant get it to attach to my post). People in the Adirondacks would bee hunt during the golden rod bloom and thats how they got their sweets for the winter. Before varroa and the viruses they vector the Adirondacks where full of honey bees.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #26 on:** January 02, 2023, 04:56:29 pm »

Quote from: beesnweeds on January 02, 2023, 03:30:16 pm

I inspect dead outs in the Adirondacks for new beekeepers every spring. Almost none of them starve, but give the appearance of starvation. Typically what happens is the beekeeper doesnt treat for mites or doesnt follow up on a mite count to see if the treatment worked. In some cases just poorly timed treatments as well. Brood frame cells are lined with mite feces and some with perforated cappings. As viruses get worse bees struggle to collect enough stores. There's a beautiful etching by Theodore R Davis 1868 " Working down the Bee Tree " in the Adirondacks (for whatever reason I cant get it to attach to my post). People in the Adirondacks would bee hunt during the golden rod bloom and thats how they got their sweets for the winter. Before varroa and the viruses they vector the Adirondacks where full of honey bees.

Good points beesnweeds. When I was a boy wild hives, feral hives, could be readily found in my area also. Not so much anymore and I firmly believe the reason for this is parasites and the diseases they carry. I am including SHB another parasite of the colony, for contributing to less wild hives as well. I do not know if SHB carry virus but I am convinced that they hurt wild hives by the damage they inflict that we do know about...

Even still, iddees good point of explanation is 'solid good advice', worthy of paying 'close' attention too for beekeepers. Especially new beekeepers in my opinion..

Phillip

yes2matt · « **Reply #27 on:** January 02, 2023, 07:24:01 pm »

Quote from: beesnweeds on January 02, 2023, 03:30:16 pm

I inspect dead outs in the Adirondacks for new beekeepers every spring. Almost none of them starve, but give the appearance of starvation. Typically what happens is the beekeeper doesnt treat for mites or doesnt follow up on a mite count to see if the treatment worked. In some cases just poorly timed treatments as well. Brood frame cells are lined with mite feces and some with perforated cappings. As viruses get worse bees struggle to collect enough stores. There's a beautiful etching by Theodore R Davis 1868 " Working down the Bee Tree " in the Adirondacks (for whatever reason I cant get it to attach to my post). People in the Adirondacks would bee hunt during the golden rod bloom and thats how they got their sweets for the winter. Before varroa and the viruses they vector the Adirondacks where full of honey bees.

Starvation is complicated, isn't it! If it was just lack of caloric intake, it would be a simple matter of giving sugar to the colony. But there have to be enough bees which are strong enough and with healthy enough gut biome to get to the sugars(or their honey), invert the sugars in their gut, then turn the calories into heat, etc.

G3farms · « **Reply #28 on:** January 02, 2023, 09:11:15 pm »

Don't forget to add that there needs to be enough of a mass of bees, "cluster", to actually form a blanket of insulation to keep the heat inside the cluster of bees.

Does that make sense?!?!

Just a couple of bees can not create enough heat and also contain it to survive a the cold snap.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #29 on:** January 03, 2023, 08:54:57 am »

Quote from: G3farms on January 02, 2023, 09:11:15 pm

Don't forget to add that there needs to be enough of a mass of bees, "cluster", to actually form a blanket of insulation to keep the heat inside the cluster of bees.

Does that make sense?!?!

Just a couple of bees can not create enough heat and also contain it to survive a the cold snap.

Makes perfect sense G3

Phillip

Bill Murray · « **Reply #30 on:** January 03, 2023, 06:38:29 pm »

So let?s see if I?m following this conversation.
If you open your hive and it has dead bees with their heads in the cells, a pile of bees on the bottom board and no honey they starved.
If you open the hive and have a ball of bees still over the bees with their heads in the cells, (which have not yet fallen) spanning over 3 frames of dead brood,(that the ants and yellow jackets haven?t eaten yet) and are still visible. And there is honey and nectar that is 1.5 inches away, (that has not been robbed out yet). Did they freeze or not move of the brood and starve? Or did they die from varroa, nosema, or some other malady? Just wondering.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #31 on:** January 04, 2023, 09:31:15 am »

I think it's complicated. Sometimes the reason they couldn't get to stores is also because the cluster was too small and that could be from other things like Varroa, etc.. But sometimes they are just stuck on brood and won't move and sometimes cluster size is due to race or a late start (swarm, queenlessness etc.) Problems tend to compound into other problems.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #32 on:** January 04, 2023, 10:55:00 am »

I agree with Mr Bush while adding to those complications; One reason for the small cluster in the first place could be the fact of varroa taking their toll even though plenty of stores were collected before Fall and before the numbers dropped going into Winter. I am thinking beesnweees touched on this without going into detail when he pointed out varroa and the viruses they carry.

Phillip

.

G3farms · « **Reply #33 on:** January 04, 2023, 06:52:52 pm »

Some bees will brood up early thinking the cold is over, as the brood patch expands of course bees will sand on it to keep it warm. This makes the cluster size smaller as the bees spread out on the brood to keep it warm Then a cold snap comes through and the bees standing on the brood all freeze along with the brood itself and if the cluster is too small then all will be lost.

Have seen this on strong healthy thriving hives in early spring. Then the small hive next to it survives because they have not yet brooded up.

I lost only one hive during the single digits this past week. A couple of hives have not stopped doing orientation flights all winter yet, go figure.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #34 on:** January 05, 2023, 07:01:39 am »

>Have seen this on strong healthy thriving hives in early spring. Then the small hive next to it survives because they have not yet brooded up.

I have seen the same. If I could only find a solution to the problem I might cut my winter losses a lot. Maybe the secret is an indoor place that stays dark so they won't brood up, but indoor wintering is a whole different problem. Maybe this is why cellaring seemed to work well in the 1800s. They bees didn't brood up. Some of the old magazines I have from that era recommend stealing every last scrap of pollen from every hive so they won't brood up.

yes2matt · « **Reply #35 on:** January 14, 2023, 06:51:20 pm »

Quote from: Michael Bush on January 05, 2023, 07:01:39 am

>Have seen this on strong healthy thriving hives in early spring. Then the small hive next to it survives because they have not yet brooded up.

I have seen the same. If I could only find a solution to the problem I might cut my winter losses a lot. Maybe the secret is an indoor place that stays dark so they won't brood up, but indoor wintering is a whole different problem. Maybe this is why cellaring seemed to work well in the 1800s. They bees didn't brood up. Some of the old magazines I have from that era recommend stealing every last scrap of pollen from every hive so they won't brood up.

Them dudes of olde knew their business. Did they go in and dig pollen out of the cells? or just trap it out before winter solstice? If the latter, how did they calculate so they had strong winter bees and then no new bees til ... when? after last frost? that seems extreme but I wonder what you've read.

The15thMember · « **Reply #36 on:** January 14, 2023, 07:07:42 pm »

Quote from: yes2matt on January 14, 2023, 06:51:20 pm

Quote from: Michael Bush on January 05, 2023, 07:01:39 am
>Have seen this on strong healthy thriving hives in early spring. Then the small hive next to it survives because they have not yet brooded up.

I have seen the same. If I could only find a solution to the problem I might cut my winter losses a lot. Maybe the secret is an indoor place that stays dark so they won't brood up, but indoor wintering is a whole different problem. Maybe this is why cellaring seemed to work well in the 1800s. They bees didn't brood up. Some of the old magazines I have from that era recommend stealing every last scrap of pollen from every hive so they won't brood up.

Them dudes of olde knew their business. Did they go in and dig pollen out of the cells? or just trap it out before winter solstice? If the latter, how did they calculate so they had strong winter bees and then no new bees til ... when? after last frost? that seems extreme but I wonder what you've read.

In reading through really old ABJ's lately, I've noticed this too. People were very keen on NOT having the bees build up early, which is kind of the opposite of how we think about it nowadays. I mean, we obviously don't want them to brood up too early, but we often want them to brood up as early as possible. I've haven't seen any references about stealing pollen personally, but several people talking about cellaring, and making sure that if you can't cellar that your hives are in the shade in the winter so the bees won't fly on a warm day when the sun hits the hives.

yes2matt · « **Reply #37 on:** January 14, 2023, 07:09:46 pm »

Quote from: iddee on December 23, 2022, 10:06:25 am

Anybody here keep bees?

Hey Wally, just to let you know your thread here prompted me to go check, and I put on about 40 pounds of candy. I'm in a good location here in the city and my colonies had wet nectar a week after solstice, but when I went to check them again I decided to put on another 40 pounds of candy. Even with sugar at these prices, it's cheap insurance. So yeah we got derailed but it did probably save some bees.

Hope you and all yours are well.

yes2matt · « **Reply #38 on:** January 14, 2023, 07:12:51 pm »

Quote from: The15thMember on January 14, 2023, 07:07:42 pm

Quote from: yes2matt on January 14, 2023, 06:51:20 pm
Quote from: Michael Bush on January 05, 2023, 07:01:39 am
>Have seen this on strong healthy thriving hives in early spring. Then the small hive next to it survives because they have not yet brooded up.

I have seen the same. If I could only find a solution to the problem I might cut my winter losses a lot. Maybe the secret is an indoor place that stays dark so they won't brood up, but indoor wintering is a whole different problem. Maybe this is why cellaring seemed to work well in the 1800s. They bees didn't brood up. Some of the old magazines I have from that era recommend stealing every last scrap of pollen from every hive so they won't brood up.

Them dudes of olde knew their business. Did they go in and dig pollen out of the cells? or just trap it out before winter solstice? If the latter, how did they calculate so they had strong winter bees and then no new bees til ... when? after last frost? that seems extreme but I wonder what you've read.
In reading through really old ABJ's lately, I've noticed this too. People were very keen on NOT having the bees build up early, which is kind of the opposite of how we think about it nowadays. I mean, we obviously don't want them to brood up too early, but we often want them to brood up as early as possible. I've haven't seen any references about stealing pollen personally, but several people talking about cellaring, and making sure that if you can't cellar that your hives are in the shade in the winter so the bees won't fly on a warm day when the sun hits the hives.

My favorite old-timer book is "A year's work in an out-apiary" and Doolittle absolutely cellared them. I'd have to go review it, don't remember him talking about robbing/trapping pollen. They can't get any (fresh) if they're in the cellar tho.

max2 · « **Reply #39 on:** January 14, 2023, 08:30:14 pm »

"In reading through really old ABJ's lately, I've noticed this too. People were very keen on NOT having the bees build up early, which is kind of the opposite of how we think about it nowadays. I mean, we obviously don't want them to brood up too early, but we often want them to brood up as early as possible. I've haven't seen any references about stealing pollen personally, but several people talking about cellaring, and making sure that if you can't cellar that your hives are in the shade in the winter so the bees won't fly on a warm day when the sun hits the hives. "

Probably the mainreason why i want them to brood up early is....I'm getting all these messages in winter for nuc's.
I think I have allowed the pressure to start making splits too early some years.
No more!

G3farms · « **Reply #40 on:** January 15, 2023, 08:58:40 am »

Quote from: max2 on January 14, 2023, 08:30:14 pm

Probably the mainreason why i want them to brood up early is....I'm getting all these messages in winter for nuc's.
I think I have allowed the pressure to start making splits too early some years.
No more!

I agree on the pressures of nuc sales. I like to get them out as soon as possible, hopefully in early May for my area. April if I buy queens from further south.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #41 on:** January 16, 2023, 12:16:09 am »

You who provide Nucs for sale are doing a great service in my opinion. All things bees, tie in with the importance of the Winter Solstice as does the different effects of Winter Weather and temperatures which follow according to different locations and regions. Do you Nuc providers have 'many' problems in relation to starve outs? How do 'you' Nuc providers avoid starve outs? (What is your favorite method?) No doubt location will play a part in what works best for you in your answers...

Phillip

Ben Framed · « **Reply #42 on:** January 16, 2023, 01:08:48 am »

The15thMember
"In reading through really old ABJ's lately, I've noticed this too. People were very keen on NOT having the bees build up early, which is kind of the opposite of how we think about it nowadays. I mean, we obviously don't want them to brood up too early, but we often want them to brood up as early as possible. I've haven't seen any references about stealing pollen personally, but several people talking about cellaring, and making sure that if you can't cellar that your hives are in the shade in the winter so the bees won't fly on a warm day when the sun hits the hives."

Location has a lot to do with 'how' we can 'help' our bees with early brood. I do not know if the old time beekeepers used any type pollen substitute at the writing of the book as many who wish for early brood do today? It is my opinion that pollen is 'just' as important as honey (or a good honey substitute) when it comes to the subject of brood.

As for pollen and wanting early brood:
Without having extra available frames of pollen on hand, I found the best way that worked 'for me', in my location when desiring early brood, is by open feeding pollen substitute to help insure they have enough pollen on hand as well. I learned this my very first year from David at Barnyard Bees over in Georgia when multiplying bees was my goal when I was first starting.

Location plays a key part in open feeding pollen sub, as I found that my bees will fly at 43 f on sunny days and above. There are several days throughout the winter months when this temperature is reached (most years) in my area.

One drawback in early brood is the possibility of swarming just before the main flow. For multiplying bees, early brood is good. For the timing of the flow, when making honey is the main goal, this is something to consider.

Phillip

max2 · « **Reply #43 on:** January 16, 2023, 02:43:22 am »

" How do 'you' Nuc providers avoid starve outs? "

I find it quite difficult to predict when my season starts.

I need to have a bunch of Drones to make sure the queens can mate.
As far as " avoiding starve outs" - I can only make early splits if either the clover or the E teriticornis ( Blue Gum) are flowering. For me, these are the key plants.

If either of them is flowering well i will have a narrow but sufficient band of honey along the top of the frame and all will be well - no feeding required.

Later in the season the band of honey will expnad and the brood area will shrink and in some years ( like 2022/23) there is too mcu honey and not enough space for the queen to spread the brood.
In such cases I add one frame of honey to the 3 frames of brood I usually place in a 5 frame nuc.The reward is generally a faster build up of the nuc.

Very rarely would i have to feed bees here.
I make sure I leave them enough honey for them to make through ( what we call) winter - very occasionally an early morning frost with days in the low to mid 20C's.

I may try some dry sugar on top of frames to soak up some moisture.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #44 on:** January 17, 2023, 07:47:53 am »

>Did they go in and dig pollen out of the cells? or just trap it out before winter solstice? If the latter, how did they calculate so they had strong winter bees and then no new bees til ... when? after last frost? that seems extreme but I wonder what you've read.

As far as I can tell, they just pulled every frame that had any pollen on it. They didn't elaborate.