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Author Topic: Swarm in a building vent  (Read 6961 times)

Offline Qkrwogud

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Swarm in a building vent
« on: November 29, 2015, 06:15:00 pm »
This is where they were:


What we did:


It was in the evening in the shade after most of the bees returned. Dropped a few small pieces of banana(apparently they hate it), then attached this contraption so all bees trying to leave will get trapped. The box was lightly sprayed with sugar water and a few drops of lemon grass oil for luring was added to a single frame in the box. Meshed vents are added to the box, but there are no exits.

If I understand the swarming process, they move to a very close temporary location while scout bees looking for a more suitable place and move there to settle. Can you tell if the location is the first temporary one, or where they decided to try build a hive?

I was thinking if this was the location they decided to settle and start building, they wouldn't be likely to relocate of their own will, without physically transferring them like you can with more easily accessible ones.

This setup was done at about 5pm and it was shaded, very little bee activity as they all appear to have gone home. So today, the foraging bees will try and get out to find they are trapped. Then what? Would I not simply end up with a handful of bees that were trying to forage? I'm not trying to criticize or doubt the setup, but I'm trying to understand what would occur in this particular case that could result in 'capturing' the hive.

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2015, 11:44:42 am »
In the search box on the upper right side of the screen on the main page for this topiC, enter the word trapouts and click on search.  This will get you a list of entries on trapouts and how to do them.  There are lots of other resources on trapouts (You Tube, etc.) and Capt44 and Iddee on this forum will probably give you some links directly.

It appears to me that what you are trying is to quickly "trap" foragers as they leave the colony.  This won't solve the problem.  If you do a proper trapout, the bees will move into a new home of their own volition.  It will take time and you almost surely will not get the queen, but you will rid the structure of bees over time.  Good luck and welcome to the Beemasters forum.  Lots of good people here that can help you.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2015, 01:13:51 pm »
 Before I can help, I would have to know the location and how long they have been there. Put your location in your profile.We can't give the same advice for Michigan and Florida. Then there's Australia, where it's summer when we have winter.
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Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2015, 03:49:14 pm »
I checked the next afternoon and what you said has happened Dallasbeek, just have a hand full of foraging bees trying to leave and getting trapped.
I was not familiar with the term trap out so I will need to take a look.
Not a huge deal if I don't get the queen but a good amount of the bees would be all I could ask for.

@iddee I've updated my profile but I'm in New Zealand, it is the first day of summer here. When I put the 'trap' in place it had only been a few hours since they moved in. It has probably been about 36 hours since they have been there now. Since they can't get out, how long would it take for them to die or be beyond recovery?

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2015, 03:56:36 pm »
Spray the catch box with sugar water daily to feed them. Since they have no brood nor food, the queen and all bees should come out within a day or 3.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2015, 03:58:26 pm »
Read the links given in this forum and you will be able to trap any and all as they come available.


http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=20301.0
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2015, 04:03:55 pm »
Spray the catch box with sugar water daily to feed them. Since they have no brood nor food, the queen and all bees should come out within a day or 3.
I did spray the box when it was first set up. Can you extend on what you mean by they should all come out? Will they defiantly do this if they start to starve or what would cause them to do this?

Since if they come out, that is exactly what I'm wanting, but @dallasbeek implies this won't work?

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2015, 04:17:29 pm »
Spray the catch box with sugar water daily to feed them. Since they have no brood nor food, the queen and all bees should come out within a day or 3.
I did spray the box when it was first set up. Can you extend on what you mean by they should all come out? Will they defiantly do this if they start to starve or what would cause them to do this?

Since if they come out, that is exactly what I'm wanting, but @dallasbeek implies this won't work?

I said it won't work because it appears that you are trying to hold them in the box.  I may be wrong about that, of course.   What you want them to do is set up housekeeping in the box, get out and forage and make the box their home.  If they can get back and forth into the structure, the box is just a conduit to the colony.

Read the link Iddee has provided and everything else you can find on trapouts and follow Iddee's instruc tions and you will succeed.  I think what he was saying is you have to continue to provide food for the bees that are in the structure, since they haven't had time to build up stores.


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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2015, 04:22:18 pm »
I think you're going to have to provide some brood and nurse bees in your trap in order to anchor the foragers to their new hive (the trap box).  Otherwise, they'll drift off and join another hive or return to their old hive (foragers bearing nectar or pollen are welcome at any hive they go to). 
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2015, 04:28:13 pm »
Right now, my 'trap' has no exits, they can't  forage at all.
@Dallasbeek - was not doubting you with my comment, was just trying to understand.

I'll have to do some reading into those articles(as I had not known the trap out term till now).
Any specific suggestions on my situation? I can go there to make changes if required.

Since they are completely trapped and can't forage, how long would it take for them to starve to death or do enough damage it isn't worth recovering?

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2015, 04:41:54 pm »
They will abscond with no food or brood in the house. When they get to the catch box and can't get out, but there is food there, they will stay there and eat. If you want to provide an exit, cover it with an excluder so the queen cannot leave. Once they move out of the structure, you can take them home.

Dallas was assuming they were an established hive, with brood and stores. In that case, he is totally right. They act differently before they become established in a new home.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2015, 04:53:21 pm »
Iddee, wouldn't that queen be slimmed down and in flying form, so an excluder would be useless?

Actually, the round bucket or whatever he has covered the vent with looks like it would be pretty inviting to a swarm.  (just thinking)

I'll butt out at this point and leave it to you and maybe Capt44 and others with more experience to help this fellow.  Qkrwogud, you're in good hands now.  Good luck.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2015, 05:00:21 pm »
Dallas, she may have slimmed that much, or maybe not. It would be better than leaving it open. Remember, there are no guarantees in beekeeping. Don't go away. You are right on with what you are saying, not knowing at the time it was still in swarm mode and not an established hive, as most trapouts are. Hang in there with us. We may all learn something.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2015, 05:04:01 pm »
Yes Dallasbeek your input is still very much valued!
I'm planning to take another look at it, are you guys suggesting I put some more sugar water in the white box?
Or is there any adjustments you could suggest I make while I'm there?

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2015, 05:07:12 pm »
MORE SUGAR??
How much is there now. I'm just saying, Don't let them run out. Keep enough in there for them to survive on.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2015, 05:11:08 pm »
About 40 hours ago when this was first put in place, we lightly sprayed the inside of the white nuc with sugar water and that's it.
From the angle I couldn't see fully into the nuc, but when I checked yesterday it didn't seem like they were going into it.
They will either have taken the small amount available, or not at all.

From the earlier conversation, it seemed it might be better to starve them a bit so they abscond into the nuc?

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2015, 05:12:49 pm »
Feed the nuc, starve the structure.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2015, 05:14:24 pm »
My traps are made with a cone, so once they come out, they cannot go back in, so cannot carry the food to the structure.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2015, 05:16:14 pm »
While the joint is narrow, they can probably still go back into the structure.
In this case shall I feed? I'm not sure I can feed nuc without also feeding the structure.
If I do feed, how much?

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2015, 05:29:44 pm »
Either feed or give them an exit. No reason to let them starve. Can you install a cone over the structure exit?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTqFbiaD_js#ws




"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2015, 06:06:25 pm »
In the video I heard this handle gentleman referred to as 'mr iddee' is that you?  :grin:
If I've understood and summarize the process in the video, cone their entrance so they can get out but not in. Add a frame of brood/eggs to the nuc and put it right next to the cone so when they return they feel compelled to look after the brood/frame?

If I kept my current setup, and simply added a frame of brood to the nuc. Would it not have a similar result with them trying to leave and finding brood to look after?

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2015, 06:27:41 pm »
You are correct, but that is for an established hive. Yes, that's me in the video. A frame of brood and/or honey would help attract them, but they may just move the honey back into the structure before the queen comes out. If you could install a cone and a frame of brood and honey, and give them an exit, you would have the best chance of success. You could likely finish it within a few days, whereas established hive takes 6 to 12 weeks.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2015, 06:32:29 pm »
Considering its location it isn't too easy to manipulate that entrance I'm not sure I can get a cone there. (I have to hang myself off the edge of the roof)
What if I just add a single frame of brood to my current setup? Perhaps the foragers that might see it will call for backup from the hive to tend to the brood?

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2015, 06:36:35 pm »
Cone and brood each would help. Either one without the other would help half as much. A Brood and honey frame would increase your chances.

Maybe a bee escape?

https://www.google.com/search?q=bee+escape&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2015, 06:42:10 pm »
Oh! Now that you mention it, one of those is already on the entrance to the nuc already. The porter bee escape.
So I believe if they get into the nuc they are trapped.

I only have a single hive at the moment, I don't think I have a full frame of capped honey but do have frames of uncapped nectar, could this do?
Was thinking just a single frame of brood as the 'nuc' box in the setup only has a bracket made for a single frame anyway.

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2015, 07:05:24 pm »
A frame of brood will have enough honey on it. You won't need any more honey than that. If the escape is in place, you should be all set. You should find the whole swarm trying to get through the bee escape within the next few days.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2015, 07:23:11 pm »
Is the brood frame getting chilled going to be a problem?
It would take about 45mins to get a brood frame there. It's likely going to be evening when I do it and the bees might not come up to start nursing right away? Perhaps not even till the next morning?

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2015, 07:26:03 pm »
If there is a cup of bees or more in the nuc, it will be enough. If not, wait a day, but check your ""hallway"". They may be blocked, or found a way back in, or found a new exit from the structure.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2015, 07:28:22 pm »
So 45mins of transport will be okay for the brood frame? Do I need to take any extra steps to ensure its survival during the transport?

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2015, 07:32:39 pm »
Wear a t-shirt or similar and use the heater in the vehicle to be uncomfortable in the heat.

Go back into your profile. Beside profile info, hover the curser on "modify profile". Click on "look & layout". Change the time to your local time. It's 6:30PM here. I would think it is Tuesday morning there.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2015, 07:37:28 pm »
Updated profile. I asked another experienced keeper and they think brood will die.
I think the risk for me is too high as I only have a single one month old hive.

What would be your plan B? Perhaps I just wait it out and hope they start getting hungry and try abscond into the trap..

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2015, 07:57:49 pm »
If you set the trap on Sunday, there should be enough bees to cover. If not, check their escape route. It is likely blocked, or nearly so.

If your hive can afford the loss, take the bees that are on the frame of brood. They will not fight with the swarm enough to make a difference. Otherwise, take the newest frame which still has eggs. I have had the temp fall to 0 Centigrade and the eggs survived the first night of a trapout.

My next choice would be feed them until there are enough bees to cover the brood.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2015, 12:33:39 am »
I think you have to feed them all, or they will starve.  Feed 2:1 sugar water, I think.  Then try to get all of them into the "trap". You need to learn the trapout system from Iddeee and apply that.  Keep them alive until you you can coax them into the trap.


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Offline dunderi

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2015, 04:57:00 am »
Can you get a bee-vaccum set up on that roof perhaps and suck them out of there? 

If you can see them and get the hose nozzle in there,  it'd be done and over in minutes. 

Look them up on you tube - you can knock one up out of a couple of ideal boxes with fly screen mesh between - and a hole each side for the vac hose - just don't forget a valve to adjust the suction in the box so you're not smashing the bees.